Pro and Con 1514

Posted 10-7-09

Luke 21:36: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

This dog looks as if it lost a lot of weight suddenly

Incoming e-mail, Re: 2000 years of church age/ keep

To: Marilyn for your consideration.

To: Stephen, please take a look at below and PLEASE let me know your thoughts..........I have seen this 2000 year interval in so many places in typology.......I want to have someone evaluate it........critique it..........and see it I am not seeing something or missing something in my conclusions!!

To: Bonnie Gaunt, would you please respond to this email and let me know your thoughts and how you are doing re your health?

Recently I noticed a couple of more ''obvious'' prophetic parallels to what we already ''know''. ......that the church age is 2000 years and the Mil. is 1000 years.

Notice this verse about the judgment that was to happen to Israel once they refused to go into the Promised Land. We know that they wandered for 40 years which pictures the 2000 years from when Israel rejected Jesus to His second coming to establish the Kingdom. So in that context notice this additional ''proof'' or indicator:

Nu 14:29
Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

I have been aware of that verse before.......but here is what came to me as I pondered it. There are other examples where the number 20 is used in the context of the first and second comings of Jesus.........and I have been aware that the number 20 in some instances stands for 2000 years of that period.

With that in mind, notice that those who were age 20........had to have their lives lived for a period.......this is those 20 and older lived their lives ..........and only when the death ''rate'' had reached those age 20 could Israel enter the Promised land.

Like those age 20.......who had to live out their lives..........likewise there has to be 2000 years that must expire before the Kingdom and come......and the Promised land be entered!! Simple but profound........hidden in this text in the OT. Those age 20 must live out their lives.........and so there are 20 centuries or 2000 years before the Promised Land/ the Kingdom of God can come.

Here is another Profound example that is in the Scriptures.......again it is simple, but nevertheless profound......to those that see God's plan in the Scriptures. To those who don't, well it is just another verse.

Remember that in Rev. 2 and 3 the Church age is being addressed.

Notice this verse in with that in mind:

Re 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
I have known of that verse for many years. But here is what came to me. I started to think.......what does that mean?!!

And then.........the thought came.....Where is the Hidden Manna? I was of course aware of the children of Israel living on manna in the wilderness............and that was about all I could relate this verse to. But wait!!

The ''hidden manna'' is a reward to the overcomers. We know that the overcomers are promised to reign with Jesus in the Kingdom from other promises in Rev. chs. 2&3.

We also know that the Holy Place contained the showbread, the altar of incense, and the 7 lamp candelabra.. obviously a type of the 7 churches of the church age and directly related to Rev. 2-3 and the letters to the 7 churches. The Holy Place was 2000 sq. cubits........another indication of the length of the church age...

Then was the Holy of Holies, picturing the Millennium which comes after the 2000 year church age.........and is 1000 sq cubits confirming the typology per REV. 20 re the 1000 year Mill.

So back to the ''hidden manna''.......those who overcome and get to rule in the Kingdom get to partake of the Hidden manna. So what is the connection?

Well, the Hidden Manna, was IN THE Holy of Holies.....which pictures the Millennium!!!!

It is just ''one more'' indication of the 2000 year church age and the 1000 year Mill. that immediately follows.......and those who overcome in the church age will be given the ''hidden manna'' in the Kingdom............Since the hidden manna is IN the Holy of Holies!......showing WHEN the Hidden Manna will be given.

Again, simple but profound. The ''wise'' will not see it.........will say ''so what'' or ''I just don't see it''. My advice to them is ''just hide and wait''.

Here is what the implication / lesson is:

The children of Israel in the wilderness HAD to wait 40 years before entering the Promised Land. No matter what they prayed or yearned for THAT period Had to TRANSPIRE....until the ''twenty-somethings'' had exhausted their life span!!!!!!!

No amount of ''watching'' (like the 5 doves watch every day......every feast......and speculate Endlessly) would ''cause'' the Assigned Time Period to come any sooner.

Even Joshua and Caleb Had to also wait for the time period to elapse........even though ''they were ready''. BTW, Caleb means ''dog'' as in a Gentile Dog and pictures NT Christianity ie the Church which ''has'' to travel with the nation of Israel for these 2000 assigned years.

There may be some ''watch'' dates on the way.....but the Kingdom WILL COME EXACTLY ON TIME........not sooner and not later. I am not setting dates, just reading the ''road signs'' on the journey.........and the road sign says, ''from this time the Kingdom of God is at mile marker 2033 AD''........which currently is 24 years from this time.

The times are mainly given for the nation of Israel. However the church has been ''along'' for the ride since Pentecost of 33 AD.

My reply

> > Recently I noticed a couple of more ''obvious'' prophetic parallels to what we already ''know''. ......that the church age is 2000 years and the Mil. is 1000 years.

The Age of the Gentiles was roughly 2000 years, 4000 BC to 2000 BC. Adam was probably cast out of the Garden of Eden in 4004 BC. The Age of the Jews was roughly 2000 years, 2000 BC to 1 AD. Abraham was born in 2008 AH.
The Age of the Church was roughly 2000 years, 1 AD TO 2001 AD.
We are now living in the time of the end, approximately 2001 AD to 2016 AD. 2016 - 7 years of Tribulation equal 2009, the Jewish years 5769 and 5770. We are now in 5770.

The Jewish year 5775 is Sabbatic (5775 divides by 7 evenly). Therefore 5776 can be the Jubilee. There are to be 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1 (Eze. 39:12,13). Nisan 1, 5776 will be April 9, 2016.

The 7-year Tribulation could run from 2009 to 2016. According to the Fig Tree Parable, there will not be more than one generation from the 1967 Six-Day War. This is a definite clue we can go by. It limits when the end can be.

In Mt 24:32-34, Jesus said,, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel, grafted into her old root stock) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., not more than 19, so this cannot have happened after Israel was 19 in 1967), and putteth forth leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights, in the Six-Day War of 1967), ye know that summer is nigh (the war started June 5; summer started June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Kingdom of God, Luke 21:31) IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOORS (symbol of the 2 Raptures). Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED."

Door One, the Pre-Trib Rapture, could be in 5770, our 2009.
Door Two, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, could be in 2015.
Then Christ could return 7 months later, on Nisan 1, 5776.

From Mt. 1:17, a generation is 48.33 years. 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33. What could justify going beyond that for "the tribulation of those days", and what should happen at that point?

2015.33

Mt 24:28-31 says, "For wheresoever the carcase (body, i.e., the Body of Christ) is (it is in Heaven at the end of the Tribulation), there will the eagles (high-flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars (aster, i.e., asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11) shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (the Sign of the Son of Man). And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (i.e., it will be the Feast of Trumpets), and they shall gather together his elect (the Bride of Christ that was taken to Heaven before the Tribulation) from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

Mark 13:27 expands on that. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (TO GATHER THE TRIBULATION SAINTS FROM THE EARTH IN THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (TO GATHER THE BRIDE OF CHRIST THAT WAS TAKEN TO HEAVEN IN THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE).

The saints of both Raptures will be gathered to the "general assembly" in Heaven on the day of the last Rapture. It will probably be on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets.

Concerning that day, Heb. 12:22-25 says, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (changed, made to actually be immortal), And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we ESCAPE, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven".

Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Can the day of the GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN HEAVEN be any later than Tishri 1, 5776 (2015)?

5776 - 7 = 5769. That year ended Tishri 1, 5770 (Sept. 19, or 21, 2009 according to the crescent Moon being sighted the evening of Sept. 20). The 7-year Tribulation is to be shortened. Therefore, the Pre-Trib Rapture must be very close, maybe Cheshvan 17, 5770 (Wed., Nov. 4, or Fri., Nov. 6, 2009) as in the days of Noah?

TWO RAPTURES, ONE AS THE DAYS OF NOAH AND THE OTHER AS THE DAYS OF LOT

In Luke 17:26-37, Jesus said, "as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man (i.e., the days of Christ, the two Raptures). They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But THE SAME DAY THAT LOT WENT OUT OF SODOM, IT RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (i.e., when they see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky). In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (i.e., the Body of Christ) is (it is in Heaven), thither will the eagles (high flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together."

The first Rapture is as the days of Noah, so it might be on Cheshvan 17, Nov. 4, 2009, if we go by the Jewish Calendar, or on Nov. 6, 2009, if we go by the crescent Moon.

Since the Last Trump Rapture is as the days of Lot, it will be the day the two asteroid pieces, one called Wormwood, Satan's home, will impact Earth on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, maybe Sept. 14, 2015..

THE TRANSFIGURATION MAY INDICATE THAT WE SHOULD GO BY WHEN THE NEW CRESCENT MOON IS SIGHTED INSTEAD OF BY THE PRESENT JEWISH CALENDAR

The Transfiguration was after 6 days in Mt. 17 and Mark 9, and about 8 days in Luke 9. That could indicate the two-day spread between the Jewish Calendar Tishri 1, 5770 (Sept. 19), and after (on Sept. 21). The new crescent Moon was actually sighted (on Sept. 20). Therefore, Tishri 1, 5770 really started Sept. 21. That shifts all Hebrew dates for 5770 forward by 2 days.

AFTER SIX DAYS (ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH CALENDAR)

Mt 17:1-3 says, "And AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up (as in the Pre-Trib Rapture) into an high mountain apart (as if to Saturn), And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

Mark 9:2-4 says, "And AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses (who are to go down to Earth): and they were talking with Jesus."

ABOUT EIGHT DAYS (ACCORDING TO THE NEW MOON SIGHTING)

In Luke 9:27-30, Jesus said,"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and WENT UP into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias".

About eight days could signify that the Rapture will take place during the night preceeding the daylight portion of the eighth day. In Mark 13:35, Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning"

Mt 14:25 says, "And in the FOURTH WATCH OF THE NIGHT (our 3 to 6 AM) Jesus went unto them (on the Sea of Galilee), walking on the sea."

Maybe it takes from 6 PM to 6 AM to gather the saints from all parts of the world.

> > the Hidden Manna, was IN THE Holy of Holies.....which pictures the Millennium!!!!

To me, the Holy of Holies pictures Heaven, Saturn, a ball that can fit into the cube of the Holy of Holies. To me, the altar represents Earth. The Holy Place (2 cubes) represents Mars and Jupiter.

BIG NEWS: WE HAVE ANOTHER SIGN

Luke 21:25 says, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring".

"NEW RING DISCOVERED AROUND SATURN IS LARGEST IN SOLAR SYSTEM"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/space/article6864286.ece

(NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory/AP)
An artist's impression of the largest ring in the Solar System
Hannah Devlin

A huge ring of dust has been discovered around Saturn that is about 50 times farther out into space than the planet’s known rings.

The faint hoop, the largest-known planetary ring in the Solar System, is believed to be made up of debris from one of Saturn’s moons, Phoebe.

According to the study, published tomorrow in the journal Nature, this dust is disturbed by minor impacts on Phoebe and drifts towards the planet where it is picked up by another of Saturn’s moons, Iapetus.

The dusty hoop extends about 8 million miles (13 million km) from the planet, and would be twice the size of the full Moon if it were visible from the Earth,...

The new ring is extremely faint, made up of a thin array of ice and dust particles.

Incoming e-mail, "WOW! We knew it was coming, just didn't know when."

http://www.independent.co.uk:80/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

The demise of the dollar

In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading

By Robert Fisk, Oct 6, 09

In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.

...it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar markets WITHIN NINE YEARS....

The transitional currency in the move away from dollars, according to Chinese banking sources, may well be gold....

In a clear sign of China's growing financial muscle, the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, yesterday pleaded with Beijing to let the yuan appreciate against a sliding dollar and, by extension, loosen China's reliance on US monetary policy, to help rebalance the world economy and ease upward pressure on the euro....

Chinese financial sources believe President Barack Obama is too busy fixing the US economy to concentrate on the extraordinary implications of the transition from the dollar in nine years' time. The current deadline for the currency transition is 2018....

Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.

Sumatran hopes fade as whole villages are sucked into the earth

4 October 2009

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/04/sumatra-indonesia-earthquake-villages-un

...Rustam Pakaya, the head of the health ministry's crisis centre, said yesterday that the villages of Pulau Aiya, Lubuk Lawe and Jumena had been wiped out by the landslides. "They were sucked 30m deep into the earth," Pakaya said of the 400 people missing in the village of Pulau Aiya, where the wedding party was being celebrated. "Even the mosque's minaret, taller than 20m, disappeared."

DID JESUS INDICATE THE DATES OF THE TWO RAPTURES, I.E., AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, AND AS IN THE DAYS OF LOT

OUR MESSAGES FROM THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY, JESUS CHRIST, THE ALMIGHTY (Rev. 1:8)

In Mt 24:37-39, Jesus said, "But AS THE DAYS OF NOE WERE, SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until THE DAY THAT NOE ENTERED INTO THE ARK, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE."

THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK, CHESHVAN 17, IS NOV. 4 IN 2009

Gen 7:11-13 says, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the SECOND MONTH, THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. IN THE SELFSAME DAY ENTERED NOAH, AND SHEM, AND HAM, AND JAPHETH, THE SONS OF NOAH, AND NOAH'S WIFE, AND THE THREE WIVES OF HIS SONS WITH THEM, INTO THE ARK".

THE DAY LOT LEFT SODOM WAS PROBABLY TISHRI 1

In Luke 17:22-37, Jesus "said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN (i.e., RAPTURE 1), and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; SO SHALL ALSO THE SON OF MAN BE IN HIS DAY (i.e., the DAY OF THE LORD, Tishri 1, seven months before the Second Advent on Nisan 1; Eze. 39:12,13). But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOE, SO SHALL IT BE ALSO IN THE DAYS (i.e., two days) OF THE SON OF MAN. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, UNTIL THE DAY THAT NOE ENTERED INTO THE ARK, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. LIKEWISE ALSO AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF LOT; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day (TISHRI 1, DAY OF THE LORD), he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, IN THAT NIGHT THERE SHALL BE TWO MEN IN ONE BED; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (i.e., the Body of Christ) is (in Heaven), thither will the eagles (high flyers, the Tribulation saints) be gathered together."

Remember that Mt 24:28 says, "For wheresoever the carcase (body) is (i.e., the Body of Christ that is in Heaven), there will the eagles (high flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together."

Isa 40:31 says, "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles (i.e., fly to Heaven); they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

GATHERED TO THE HEAVENLY GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON THE DAY OF THE LORD

Heb 12:22-28 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN, AND TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear".

Joel 2:1 says, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion (i.e., it is Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets), and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand".

Incoming e-mail, Re: Message to leave behind

We all have done wrong things. God our Heavenly Father wants us to spend eternity with Him, but cannot let us into Heaven with sin in our hearts. the Bible says: Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

God loved us so much that He sent His Son, The Lord Jesus to come to earth and suffer and be punished for our sins, when He was on the cross. The Bible says: John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!"

Please be quiet for a minute and pray this prayer:
Dear Lord, I know I have done wrong things. I am sorry for those wrong things. I sincerely thank you for sending the Lord Jesus to take my punishmnet for the wrong things I have done. I believe that He is my Saviour and accept Him into my heart. After the Lord Jesus died on the cross, He arose and went into Heaven where He is preparing a place for us. The Bible says that He wants us to be with Him! After you have prayed the prayer of salvation..seek out other Christians who have prayed this prayer. Perhaps you can study the Bible together and have wonderful Christian fellowship.

My reply

Thanks. Good idea.

A post on Five Doves site

Ed P (3 Oct 2009)
"The Last Trumpet, read slowly"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2009/edp103.htm

In addition to my last post about the day=year:

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2009/edp929.htm

I would also like to quote from the book, “The False Prophet” by ELLIS H. SKOLFIELD

again concerning the Last Trumpet that is talked about in Revelation 11:15.

Between these two principle concepts, (day=year, and last trumpet) it become clear that the whole 7-year trib theory my be false. I say this despite John Tng's amazing results with BHO. I cannot dispute the pyramid results, but I think that the interpretation of what that means could be at issue. However that's not what I am talking about here. Please take your time to read this through. Get a cup of tea or coffee and read this slowly.

Thanks, Ed P
-----

Last Trumpet
Chapter 16...

My reply

I strongly disagree with ELLIS H. SKOLFIELD. To me, the only time a day equals a year is when the Bible says so.

I think the 70th week (shabua) of Daniel 9:27 is the 7-year Tribulation.

The last trumpet Rapture of the Tribulation saints on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17; 7:14) precedes the time when the 7 judgment trumpets are given to the 7 angels in Rev. 8. Those 7 trumpets cannot have anything to do with either Rapture, Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath.

I Thess. 4:13-18 is the First Trump Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture. It takes place in Rev. 4:1, before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. All the Bride of Christ saints are made incorruptable at that Rapture.

I Cor. 15:51,52 is the Last Trump Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It takes place in Rev. 7:14, before the 7 trumpets of Judgment are given to the 7 angels in Rev. 8. All the Body of Christ saints, including Paul, will be changed at that time, made to be not only incorruptable, but actually immortal, at the last Rapture.

> > Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other.

Notice that here, only those that were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture are gathered to the general assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23).

Now look at Mark 13:27. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

These gathered from the Earth are the Tribulation saints.

> > So isn't it obvious that the last trumpet comes after the tribulation? Sure, and since the church is taken up at the last trumpet, the only way to defend the pre-trib rapture is to rewrite Scripture and put verse 31 before verse 21.

That isn't so. His mistake is in assuming that the entire church is taken up at the last trumpet. The Bride of Christ saints are taken up at the first trumpet, and the Tribulation saints are caught up at the last trumpet. Together, they make up the Body of Christ.

> > No matter what our doctrines may have been in the past, the Bible states that our trumpet is the last, and the last trumpet does not blow until Rev 11:15, after the six other trumpets in Revelation have blown. So the last trumpet is solid scriptural evidence that the Church will be on earth through the trumpets of Revelation. Now Brethren, that isn.t just another irrational end-time theory. If we have ears to hear it, that is what the Word of God proclaims, straight out.

I consider that an irrational end-time theory. The 7 trumpet judgments are to hit unbelievers. By that time, every believer will be in Heaven.

Rev 11:17-19 says, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on the Day of the Lord), and wast (at the First Advent), and art to come (at the Second Advent, 7 months future (Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (all these receive their rewards in Heaven at the same time the unbelievers on Earth receive the wrath of God); and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

It looks like the two stone tablets in the Ark represent the two stones (asteroids) that will be dumped on Earth that day. They will cause the worldwide earthquake of Eze. 38:20.

> > The 7th angel sounds, and the Lord reigns forever. Right then, forever! After that trumpet blows, there won't be time for a tribulation, or for a 1000-year millennium. We will be going straight into the eternal Kingdom of God when that last trumpet sounds. Despite differing doctrines, that is the chronological picture as declared in the Bible.

I disagree. I think the Millennium will begin before the first trumpet sounds. In Rev. 8:1 and Hab. 2:20, there is silence in both Heaven and Earth while the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Hab 2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the EARTH KEEP SILENCE before him."

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was SILENCE IN HEAVEN about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." The silence shows that both of the passages are talking about the same moment in time.

> > The Great Tribulation of the Church began with the stoning of Stephen, and continued until the time of the Gentiles ended. From the Scriptures we have been looking at, it is obvious that all defined biblical times have been fulfilled in new Israel. As a result, the Great Tribulation is probably an epochal time that has been running throughout the Christian Era.

I don't believe that for a minute. The 7-year Tribulation follows the Pre-Trib Rapture just as Rev. 6 is after Rev. 4:1. The Great Tribulation is the last half of the 7-year Tribulation. It is the part that is to be shortened, or no flesh would be saved.

Mt 24:15-22 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place [i.e., at Mid-Trib], (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re:

Bruce Warner (2 Oct 2009)
"THREE MAJOR EARTHQUAKES THREE DAYS IN A ROW!"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2009/brucew102-1.htm

Dear Doves,

On 9-29 there was a 8.0 quake, on 9-30 there was a 7.6 quake, and on 10-1 there was a 6.6 quake, and ALL of these in the week just before the Feast of Tabernacles! What will tomorrow bring? Is God trying to get our attention?

You have our attention, and we are 'watching' so, Come Lord Jesus!

Bruce Warner

My reply to a post on the Five Doves site, Re: Susan Bentley (5 Oct 2009) "QUESTION ON 1TH 4:16-17"

> > the question that has been BUGGING me greatly is "then we which are alive and REMAIN" - remain from what????

It is more like remain where? remain on Earth. The word translated "remain" in I Thess. 4:16 is Strong's perileipo. It means to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.

It is talking about the living part of the Bride of Christ still remaining on Earth when the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture comes. The dead part of the Bride of Christ has already gone to Heaven. We are the ones that remain on Earth. We are the ones that will be caught up with those that have died and come back from Heaven with Christ. They get their resurrection bodies first, then we will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air and be taken to Heaven. Then the complete Body of Christ will be in Heaven. Agape

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