Pro and Con 1528

Posted 12-9-09

Incoming e-mail, Re: Response to: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2009/ronr1121.htm

From: wmrmiller@everestkc.net
To: Roger Harrison Cc: Marilyn Agee

Have you considered this: http://www.feastsofthelord.net/id34.html
Blessings, Bill ( & Jeanne) Miller
Please View & Forward this Web Site info...
FEASTS OF THE LORD Web Site: http://www.feastsofthelord.net/ Eschatology Summary & Interpretative Chart:
http://www.feastsofthelord.net/id57.html

From: Roger Harrison, To: Ron Reese
Subject: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2009/ronr1121.htm

This is an interesting approach to an approximate time for the rapture. I have no problem with the possibility that Joseph's revealing himself to his brothers after two years out of seven could picture the timing of the rapture and tells us when the rapture will occur if you can properly date the beginning of the seven year tribulation.

However, I believe that Luke 21:34-36 is addressed to Israel and not to Christians and I totally disagree with two raptures, one for the "most obedient" believers and a lesser one for "less obedient" believers. I believe that anyone taking the two rapture approach is blinded to the evil that is in their own heart in their old nature and is caught up in pride. Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Our spirit birth does not eliminate our old, sinful nature. Only our physical death will eradicate the old, sinful nature.

Since Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob are not part of the Christ’s body, the church, then all the verses and parables that refer to the kingdom of heaven, mainly in Matthew, are not talking about the church, but about Israel during and after the Millennium when Christ reigns on the earth from Jerusalem.

Matthew 8:11 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

These verses are often related in error to the church to prove two raptures of believers; the first for those that are most (undefined in scripture) obedient to our Lord’s commands who become the bride of Christ, and a second group of worldly Christians who are raptured later who are not part of Christ’s bride. The two rapture idea has no basis in scripture and places believers in the position of trying to earn a higher position without ever knowing when they make it - like trying to earn your way to heaven.

Now, regarding the overcomers who some believe are Christ's bride. I find that the scriptures in 1 John 5:4 & 5 define ALL believers as overcomers and therefore the entire body of believers are in fact Christ's bride, not a subset of more obedient believers. 1John 5:4-5 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

The following verses show that the taking out of the church is likely to occur at the next, unfulfilled, Israel feast day which is the Feast of Trumpets in September-October of a soon coming year, perhaps 2010. As Israel’s Feast of Weeks was used by God for the birth of the church by the Holy Spirit, so it seems reasonable that Israel’s Feast of Trumpets may be used by God to take the church out of the world sometime during Daniel’s 70th week for Israel while He brings His last 7 years of judgment on Israel. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The following verses show that the church will not be gathered unto Jesus on the day of Christ until after the man of sin is revealed. There is no information in verse three that specifies exactly how or when he will be revealed, and his actions in verse four will probably come sometime after the day of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand 3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."\

The following verses show that the gospel is associated with the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of Heaven . Therefore, while the Kingdom of Heaven is for Israel , the Kingdom of God is for the church which are those souls that have been born again of the God’s Spirit.

Mark 1:14 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God ."

To God be the Glory, Roger Harrison, Sr.

My reply to Roger

Before starting to answer your email, I went to your web site to see your schedule of end-time events. We differ on a few things. Maybe if we put our heads together, we can get farther than either can alone.

> > 40 Years; aka 1-Generation

1967 + 40 = 2007. Since that year has passed, it is now obvious that we must use 48.33 years. According to Mt. 1:17, a generation can be 48.33 years. 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33 the outside limit of one generation from the Six-Day War of 1967. That took place in Iyar. Adding 4 more months (Sivan, Tamuz, Av and Elul) brings us to Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015), which I think will be the Day of the Lord which is also the Day of God's Wrath.

The Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37). Gen 6:3 says, "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." That is the type.

The 120 years seem to run in modern times too. Remember Noah Troyer's prophecy that man has been given 120 years? A search on Google will turn it up. The man was in a coma, yet stood up 19 times to repeat the same thing. Since that is a block of years, it should be figured by inclusive reckoning. The first Zionist Congress was in 1897. 1897 + 119 = 2016. I think Jesus will return Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016.

According to Eze. 39:12,13, there will be 7 months between the Gog and Magog war, the worldwide earthquake (Eze. 38:18-20), and the Second Advent. There are 7 months between Tishri 1, 5776, the Day of God's Wrath, and Nisan 1, 5776 because 5776 is a leap year with the 13th month. 5776 seems to be the last year of this age.

5776 - 7 = 5769. I think the 70th week of Daniel started Tishri 1, 5769 (Sept. 30, 2008) and will end Tishri 1, 5776. That would mean that we are now in the 2nd year of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Do you remember Sept. 29, 2008? It was the day the House failed to pass the bailout bill and the stock market crashed. At 3 PM, the Dow ended down 777.7. The world's financial tribulation dates from that day.

Ron Reese figured out that the Rapture could happen in the 2nd year, because Joseph, the best type of Christ we have, brought his entire family to him in the 2nd year of the 7-year famine that prefigured the 70th week of Daniel (Gen. 45).

Gen 45:6 (KJV) says, "For THESE TWO YEARS hath the famine been in the land: and YET there are FIVE YEARS, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest."

The Bishops Bible is clearer. It says, "For THIS IS THE SECOND YERE of dearth in the lande, and fiue more are behinde, in the whiche there shall neyther be earyng nor haruest."

> > 10/ 2018 Jubilee

A Jubilee Year has to follow a Sabbatical Year. 5775 is Sabbatical. It divides by 7 evenly. Also, 27 AD was a Sabbatical year, and the Jubilee was in 28 AD. 27 AD was 3787. It divides by 7 evenly.

The next Sabbatical Year after 5775 is 5782. That is too far away. The tetrad of Lunar eclipses, blood Moons, that fall on feast days are in 2014 and 2015, and there are no more in this century. Therefore, I think the Second Advent will be Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016), the first day of the Jubilee Year. The Jubilee would be announced on the previous Day of Atonement.

According to Eze. 39:12,13, there are 7 months between the end of the Gog and Magog War on the Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1, 5776, Sept. 14, 2015, and the Second Advent Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016, because 5776 is a leap year.

The year 5776 is a leap year, so there are 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1. I don't see how we could make this last year any later than 2015/2016. Do you?.

> > 10/2011-12; ... Start of 7-Year Tribulation

I think the 2300-day shortened Tribulation actually started last Pentecost, May 29, 2009. The end of the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 would fall on Tishri 1, 5776, the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015, the Day of the Lord that I think is also the day of the Last-Trump Rapture (I Cor. 15:51,52) and the Day of God's Wrath.

The Seventieth Week of Daniel probably started Tishri 1, 5769, Tue. Sept 30, 2008. 2008 + 7 = 2015. I think the 70th week of Dan. 9:27 will end as Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015) starts.

The 70th week of Daniel:
Year 1 started Tishri 1, 5769 (Sept 30, 2008)
Year 2 started Tishri 1, 5770 (Sept 19, 2009)
The First-Trump Rapture should be in 5770
Five years of Tribulation would be left during which there will be no earing or harvest.
Year 3 starts Tishri 1, 5771 (Sept 9, 2010)
Year 4 starts Tishri 1, 5772 (Sept 29, 2011)
Year 5 starts Tishri 1, 5773 (Sept 17, 2012)
Year 6 starts Tishri 1, 5774 (Sept 5, 2013)
Year 7 starts Tishri 1, 5775 (Sept 25, 2014)
and ends on Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015)

Summary

The year 5776 fits its niche perfectly. Its a leap year, so there are the 7 months of Eze. 39:12,13 between Tishri 1, the Day of God's Wrath, and the following Nisan 1, the Second Advent. The previous year, 5775, is a Sabbatic Year. Therefore, the Jubilee Year would start the day of the Second Advent, Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016. It would have been announced on the previous Day of Atonement 10 days after the Day of God's Wrath (Sept. 23, 2015).

A SIGN

Remember what happened on the Eve of Trumpets, Monday, Sept 29, 2008. The House of Representatives rejected the $700 billion bank rescue package and the Dow Industrial Index plummeted in one of the biggest one-day plunges ever. It closed down 777.68, or rounded off, 777.7. Those sevens were enough to get our attention at the time. Oil dropped 10.15 a barrel too. Banks have been closed, sold, merged, etc. ever since. That was a day to remember.

There is no doubt that the financial TRIBULATION of the whole world started then. That Monday's loss knocked out about $1.2 trillion of market value. It was the first time markets lost more than $1 trillion in one day.

That Monday, Sept 29, 2008 (Elul 29, 5768) was the Eve of the Feast of Trumpets. NYD, Tuesday, Tishri 1, 5769, probably was the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

THE ECLIPSE TETRADS SET 2015 AS THE FINAL YEAR OF THE TRIBULATION

There will be four total lunar eclipses, blood moons, on Feast days:
2014 Apr 15 Total (Nisan 16, 5774) FIRSTFRUITS
2014 Oct 8 Total (Tishri 15, 5775) TABERNACLES
2015 Apr 4 Total (Nisan 15, 5775) UNL. BREAD
2015 Sep 28 Total (Tishri 15, 5776) TABERNACLES

There will also be four solar eclipses, all on the 29th of the Jewish month:
Apr 29, 2014 Total: (Nisan 29, 5774)
Oct 23, 2014 Partial: (Tishri 29, 5775)
Mar 20, 2015 Total: (Adar 29, 5775), EVE OF NISAN 1, FIRST DAY OF SACRED YR
Sept 13, 2015, Partial: (AFTER 6 PM, SO IT WILL ACTUALLY BE ON THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS, WHICH WILL BE TISHRI 1, 5776, WHEN I EXPECT THE DAY OF GOD'S WRATH.

HOW THESE ECLIPSES FIT SCRIPTURE

Joel 2:31 says, "The SUN shall be turned into darkness (Apr 29, 2014, Oct 23, 2014, Mar 20, 2015, Sept 13, 2015 our time, Sept 14 already to the Jews, because it will be after 6 PM), and the MOON into blood (Apr 15, 2014, Oct 8, 2014, Apr 4, 2015), BEFORE the great and terrible day of the LORD come." I think it will come Tishri 1, 5776, Sept 14, 2015. One extra lunar eclipse will be Sept 28, 2015. Then there are no more eclipse tetrads that fall on feast days the rest of this century.

Acts 2:20 says, "The SUN shall be turned into darkness (Sept 13, 2015), and the MOON into blood (Apr 4, 2015), BEFORE that great and notable DAY OF THE LORD come" (on Tishri 1, 5776, Sept 14, 2015).

> > I believe that Luke 21:34-36 is addressed to Israel and not to Christians

Luke 1:3 says, "It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus."

The "us" ending makes me think Theophilus was a Roman." That doesn't matter though. 2Tim 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Luke 21:34-36 applies to ALL THAT DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. It says, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (day of the Rapture) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on ALL THEM THAT DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Jesus told us to watch. Luke too, and why is it important? so we may understand and "be accounted worthy to escape" in the First-Trump Rapture and to "stand before the Son of man" in Heaven.

At the Rapture, Jesus will speak from Heaven. Heb 12:25 says, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven".

> > I totally disagree with two raptures

I totally believe in two Raptures. There will be a First-Trump Rapture as in I Thess. 4:16,17. There will be a "LAST TRUMP" Rapture as in I Cor. 15:51,52. How can you have a "last trump" when you haven't had a first trump?

Before the first seal on the Title Deed of the Earth is broken in Rev. 6, the first-trump saints all sing the NEW SONG in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. It says, "And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and TO OPEN THE SEALS THEREOF: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

Of the last-trump saints, only the 144,000 Israelites can sing the new song. Rev. 14:2-5 says, "I heard a VOICE FROM HEAVEN, as the voice of many waters, and AS THE VOICE OF A GREAT THUNDER: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they (the 144,000) sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (12 patriarch and 12 apostles seen in heaven in Rev. 4:4): and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

When the Day of God's Wrath has come and the sixth seal has been broken (Rev. 6:12,17), the last-trump saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. It says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

It now looks like the First-Trump saints come out of a little Tribulation in the 2nd year of the 70th week of Daniel (this year, hopefully on Dec. 13, Hanukkah, Kislev 25, 5770, according to the Moon, which is 2 days later than the Jewish Calendar this year), but the Last-Trump saints come out of "GREAT TRIBULATION" on the Day of God's Wrath (Tishri 1, 5776 on the Jewish Calendar, Sept. 14, 2015).

That date on the Gregorian Calendar can vary as much as two days, according to when the new crescent Moon of Tishri is sighted and reported properly to the Sanhedrin, as it was this year.

> > I have no problem with the possibility that Joseph's revealing himself to his brothers after two years out of seven could picture the timing of the rapture and tells us when the rapture will occur if you can properly date the beginning of the seven year tribulation.

I think the 70th week of Daniel started Tishri 1, 5769. The Hebrew Date Converter says that the "1st of Tishrei, 5769 = Tue, 30 September 2008".

> > The following verses show that the church will not be gathered unto Jesus on the day of Christ until after the man of sin is revealed. There is no information in verse three that specifies exactly how or when he will be revealed, and his actions in verse four will probably come sometime after the day of Christ.
> > 2 Thessalonians 2:1 "¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST is at hand 3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

There are two mistakes in the translation of those verses in the KJV. It should say DAY OF THE LORD (as in the RSV and several others) instead of the day of Christ, and it should say DEPARTING (as in the Geneva Bible) instead of falling away.

All of the English Bibles translated before the KJV had departing.

In 2Th 2:2, the RSV, and several others, got the first error corrected after older versions of the Bible were found. The RSV says, "not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the DAY OF THE LORD has come."

In 2Th 2:3, the Geneva Bible correctly says, "Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come A DEPARTING FIRST, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the SONNE OF PERDITION".

He apostasia means THE departing. In this case it means the departing from Earth. It is talking about our departing in the First-Trump Rapture before the second son of perdition is revealed.

The DEPARTING in the Rapture seems to be in the second year of the Tribulation, before the second SON OF PERDITION is revealed Mid-Trib.

There are only two sons of perdition, Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet. John 17:12 (KJV) says of Judas, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Rev 12:9 says, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO THE EARTH (Mid-Trib), and his angels were cast out with him."

Rev 17:8 (KJV) says, "The beast (Satan) that thou sawest was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now); and shall ASCEND out of the bottomless pit (Mid-Trib), and GO INTO PERDITION (the False Prophet): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (i.e., in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), and yet is" (exists).

Rev 17:11 (KJV) says, "And the beast that was (Satan), and is not, even he is the eighth (i.e., the tail of the great red dragon), and is of the seven, and GOETH INTO PERDITION (i.e., Satan enters into the False Prophet, the second son of perdition, just as he entered into Judas Iscariot, the first son of perdition).

To me, it is very clear that the First-Trump Rapture will take place before Satan enters into the False Prophet Mid-Trib.

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER."

The seven-sealed Title Deed of the Earth is given to Christ in Rev. 5 after the first Rapture in Rev. 4:1. As long as we are still here, the first seal cannot be broken. That comes in Rev. 6.

> > The following verses show that the church will not be gathered unto Jesus on the day of Christ until after the man of sin is revealed. There is no information in verse three that specifies exactly how or when he will be revealed, and his actions in verse four will probably come sometime after the day of Christ.

Actually, that is a true statement, because the day of Christ is the day of the Rapture. However, it is the Day of the Lord that is in view. That is the Day of God's Wrath.

I think the First-Trump Rapture will be on "the Lord's day" (Sunday, Rev. 1:9), and the Last-Trump Rapture will be on the Day of the Lord that is also the Day of God's Wrath.

> > 2 Thessalonians 2:1 "¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand 3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

That happens Mid-Trib. Mt 24:15,16 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains".

They flee Mid-Trib. Rev 12:6 says, "And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." That is the last half of the Tribulation. Agape

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