Pro and Con 1547
A Million Asteroid pieces
Incoming e-mail, Re: "Seven Year Tribulation is False"
By: Kevin Heckle (10 Apr 2010)
Doves, Like many of you, I believed that a SEVEN year Tribulation was Scriptural. Popularized by Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and MANY others, it is a theory which states there will be a covenant or peace agreement between Israel and the antichrist for SEVEN years and in the middle of that seven year covenant or after three and a half years of peace, the antichrist will stop the Jews from sacrificing in the temple.
I would ask you: Where is your Scriptural proof of a SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION?
I assume most of you will cite Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years by implication]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
You will have to prove that the ""he"" in this passage is referring to the ruler/prince (antichrist) and NOT the Messiah.
Where does this 'one week' passage refer to the Tribulation?
Will the antichrist be able to cause the sacrifice and oblation to REST? The Hebrew word for 'cease' in the KJV is shabath (H7673) which also means to REST.
Did Jesus cause the Jewish sacrifice and the oblation to rest after 3.5 years of His ministry? Did Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross put an end to the Jews insufficient offerings for sin? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
In Hebrews ch. 7-10, Paul explains to the Jews the NEW and better covenant that Jesus had confirmed with His life. 3.5 years after Jesus was crucified, the 'seventy times seven' for the Jews was over. Thier 490 years (70 weeks) were done. They forfeited their birthright as children of God, just like the story of Esau and Jacob. They rejected the Messiah who brought in an EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Where is the corroberating Scriptures that confirm the Tribulation is seven years in length rather than the general 3.5 year time frame expressed over and over in Revelation?
How can you prove that this passage is referring to the antichrist confirming the covenant and NOT the Messiah?
God ALWAYS offers a second witness, especially when it comes to His Word.
I am looking forward to your response in the spirit of the Bereans.
In Christ, Kevin Heckle
> > Where is your Scriptural proof of a SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION?
FIRST 1260 days
Rev 11:1-3 says, 'And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
LAST 1260 DAYS, OR 3.5 YEARS
Rev 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
Dan 7:25 says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time (one year) and times (two years) and the dividing of time" (half a year, i.e., 3.5 years in all).
Dan 12:6,7 says, "And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (3.5 years); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."
THE LAST YEAR IS A HEBREW LEAP YEAR WITH THE 13TH MONTH
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (Mid-Trib), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
> > I assume most of you will cite Daniel 9:27 - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years by implication]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
> > You will have to prove that the ""he"" in this passage is referring to the ruler/prince (antichrist) and NOT the Messiah.
Dan 9:26 says, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (Jesus, a Jew) be cut off (killed), but not for himself (for us): and the people (Romans) of the prince (Antichrist) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." The Romans burned Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, so the prince that shall come will be a Roman, probably the Pope.
Dan 9:26,27 says, "the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (the False Prophet) shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple); and the end thereof shall be with a flood (i.e., because the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea), and unto the end of the war (i.e., the Gog and Magog War of Eze. 38) desolations are determined. And he (the Roman False Prophet) shall confirm (strengthen) the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (when he sits in the Temple showing that he is God, 2 Thess. 2:4), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he (the False Prophet) shall make it (the Temple) desolate, even until the consummation (probably Tishri 1, 5776, the Feast of Trumpets, when Jesus receives his Millennial Kingdom), and that determined (two asteroid impacts of Rev. 8-11) shall be poured upon the desolate." Agape
Incoming e-mail, Re: Who are the "24 elders?" / Tom Gaston
There is much confusion among many Christians today as to "who" the "24 elders" represents in Revelation chapter 4. Chapter 4 of Revelation is vitally important for the student of the word of God to understand just "who" these 24 elders are! Without this knowledge, then many will continue to put the Church "inside" the tribulation period. So what I have decided to do is give you a short section from the book of "Things to Come" by Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost.who examines and reveals who these 24 elders represent.
The 24 Elders
Quote:........."The number twenty-four, which represents the entire priesthood ( 1Chron. 24:1-4, 19 ), as it was divided for purposes of representation by David, suggests that this is the Church. While Israel was called to a priestly function ( Ex. 19:6 ), that nation never entered into this chief function because of their sin. To the tribulation saints the promise is given that they shall minister as priests in the millennium ( Rev. 20: 6 ). However, at the beginning of the tribulation period Israel has NOT been restored yet to the place of a priestly nation, for they must await the millennial age for the realization of that privelege.
The tribulation saints, likewise, must await the millennial age for their realization of it. The Church is the ONLY body definitely constituted a priesthood that could fulfill the function of priests ministering under the High Priest ( Christ - 1Peter. 2:5, 9 ).
Their position suggests that they represent the Church In Revelation 4 the elders are seated on thrones, surrounding the throne of God, intimately associated with the One ( Christ ) seated on His throne. The Church has been promised this very position (Rev. 3:21; Matt. 19:28 ). such a position could not be true of angels, who surround the throne, but do not occupy positions on the throne, nor could it be true of Israel, for Israel will be subjected to the authority of the throne, not assoceated with its authority.
Their white raiment suggests that they represent the Church. It is made clear in Isaiah 61:10 that the white raiment represents righteousness that has been imputed to the believer. It was promised to those in Sardis ( Rev. 3:4,5 ) that they would be robed in white. This white raiment was first seen at the transfiguration ( Mark 9:3 ) and suggests that that which was Christ's inherently has become the possession of these elders by "imputation" ( imputed ).
Their crowns suggest that they represent the Church. These twenty-four are not wearing "monarch's crowns" ( Diadema ), but they are wearing "Victor's crowns" ( Stephanos), which had been won in a conflict. They therefore have been both resurrected, for a spirit would not be wearing a crown, and judged, for they could not receive a crown as a reward apart from judgment. Further, the judgment must have only recently taken place, for they are seen in the act of casting their crowns at Christ's feet ( Rev. 4;10 ).
Their worship suggests that they represent the Church. Worship is given to God from the elders because of His acts of creation ( Rev. 4:11 ), redemption ( Rev. 5:9 ), judgment ( Rev. 19:2 ) and reigning ( Rev. 11:17 ). Some have sought to dissociate the elders from the redemption of which they sing (Rev. 5:9 ) by deleting the word "us" from the text, affirming on that basis that these could not be the representatives of the Church. On this point several things are to be observed.
( 1.) There is good manuscript evidence to include the word "us" in the text. The word need not be deleted on the textual grounds.
( 2.) Even if it were to be deleted ( us ) it does not mean that the elders were not singing of their own redemption. In Exodus 15:13, 17, where Moses and the people of Israel are praising God for His judgment, which they manifestly experienced themselves, they sing in the "third person." Scripture gives precedent, therefore, for dealing with that which is subjective as an objective fact.
( 3.) If the word were omitted ( us ) and it could be proved that they were singing about a redemption which they did not experience themselves, it need not prove that the elders are not the Church, for as these elders are brought into a knowledge of judgments of God being poured out on the earth through these experiences and they can praise God for the redemption of these from "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" ( Rev. 5:9 ) who have experienced the tribulation, been saved in it, and who will be made "kings and priests, and shall reign on the earth," ( Rev. 5:10; 20:6 ). As they praise God for the judgment He exercises during the tribulation period ( Rev. 19:2 ), so they may praise God for the redemption He accomplishes during it.
Their intimate knowledge of the program of God suggests that the elders represent the Church. In passages such as Rev. 5:5; 7:13-14 it is seen that they have been taken into the confidence of God concerning His program as it is being unfolded. Such intimacy is the ultimate fulfillment of that promised by our Lord to the disciples in John 15:15. The very use of the word "elder" suggests this maturity in spiritual understanding, for the Scriptural concept of an elder was one mature either in years or experience. The promise of such maturity, as indicated in 1Corinthians 12:12, is now actual.
Their association with Christ in a priestly ministry suggests that they represent the Chruch. In Revelation 5:8 they are seen "Having harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints."
The close association into which these elders have been brought in this priestly ministry suggest that the Church, which has been constituted as a ministering priest, is here represented. The conclusion formed by scholar "Armerging" will form a suitable conclusion to the examination of these elders. He writes:
........."The last thing that is said of them is that they fall down, in company with the four living creatures, and worship Him Who sits on the throne, saying, "Amen, Alleluia" (Rev.19:4 ). This last act of theirs is characteristic of them. Indeed, there are three things which seem to characterize them all through:
( 1.) Their intimate knowledge of Christ.
( 2.) Their nearness to Him.
( 3.) The worship they give Him. And we recall that our Lord, when praying for His own, asked that they might know Him, that they might be with Him, and that they might behold His glory ( John 17:3, 25 ). And they were none other than the men which the Father had given Him out of the world ( End quote ).
Here is a youtube link below which gives an excellent short commentary on the 24 elders.
The "Bema seat" of Christ Quote from Above website......
"In the Grecian games in Athens, the old arena contained a raised platform on which the president or umpire of the arena sat. Form here he rewarded all the contestants: and here he would reward all winners. It was called the "Bema" or "Reward Seat". It was never used as a judicial bench".
As we will note through out our study, the Judgment Seat of Christ will not be a judgment of eternal condemnation, on those who lose rewards. They will still have the gift of salvation purchased for them by the Blood of Christ. The Scriptures declare that in Christ there is no condemnation ( end quote ).
The term "Bema" is Strong's Greek # 968...........A rostrum, i.e. tribunal - judgment seat.......throne. Here below are the Scripture texts where this term is found.
Mat 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Act 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
Act 18:16 And he drave them from the judgment seat.
Act 18:17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.
Act 25:6 And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought.
Act 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Act 25:17 Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The apostle Paul taught and instructed the Church concerning the "Bema Seat" of Christ in Rom. 14:10; 2Cor. 5:10. This event is the "next event" immediately following the resurrection of the body of Christ. These Scripture textsabove are the only texts in the New Testament where this Greek term "Judgement Seat" ( Bema - Strong's Greek # 968 ) is found. It is found nowhere in the book of Revelation.
Notice in the Scripture texts of Rom. 14:10 and 2Cor. 5:10 that Paul puts the phrase "Judgment seat" in the "singular" form and not in the "plural" form as in "Judgment seats." If there was more than one Judgment seat ( Bema ) of Christ for the Church, then Paul would have used the "plural" form and he certainly would have most certainly taught it without question to the whole body of Christ! The apostle Paul is totally silent concerning a "second" Bema event.
There is only "one body" of Christ and not two (Eph. 4:4). Therefore there is only one Bema for the complete body of Christ and not two. In 2Cor. 5:10 Paul states..........."For we must all appear before the Judgement seat of Christ......."
Question: Who is the apostle Paul addressing here?
Answer: The Church, the body of Christ! The phrase "we must all" is all inclusive which means the "whole body" of Christ, and not just some of the body of Christ. His instruction here to the Corinthians was not just being addressed and restricted to them only, but Paul was addressing the Church as a whole. Paul's teaching applies to every member of Christ's body, which makes up the "Church", which is "one."
Paul didn't say.........."For we must all appear before the judgement seats ( plural ) of Christ, but "seat" ( singular ). The Bema takes place "nowhere else" but at the "close" of the Church age. It is the next event following the resurrection of the Church.
The teaching of this "judgment seat" of Christ for the Church was not taught nor seen in the Old Testament. It was only revealed to the Church through the apostle Paul in the New Testament. An important observation must be noted here concerning this Greek term ( Bema # 968 ). Again, the only places in-which the term "Bema" is found in the New Testament is in the listed texts above which you have already read.
Now did you all notice something very peculiar here folks! This Greek term ( Bema # 968 ) is NEVER used nor found in the book of Revelation, NOWHERE! It has been completely omitted! The apostle John who wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit NEVER mentioned the "judgment seat" of Christ in the book of Revelation nor did he use the Greek term for this event. Why ? It is because the Church is not present on the earth during the tribulation period. She is already in heaven and is seen represented in Rev. 4:4 -10 as the 24 elders who cast their crowns ( Stephanos" / Victor's crowns ) at the feet of Christ. This Greek term "Stephanos" ( Victor's crown ) represents a crown which was won out of "service or conflict" to the Lord Jesus Christ.
These twenty-four are not wearing "monarch's crowns" ( Diadema ), but they are wearing "Victor's crowns" ( Stephanos), which had been won in a conflict. They therefore have been both resurrected, for a spirit would not be wearing a crown, and judged, for they could not receive a crown as a reward apart from judgment. Further, the judgment must have only recently taken place, for they are seen in the act of casting their crowns at Christ's feet ( Rev. 4;10 ).
In Rev. 4:1-4 the apostle John is viewing a "post" Bema" event. The 24 elders are already sitting on thrones, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns ( Stephanos ) on their heads. This description of the 24 elders in Rev. 4:4shows clearly that the Bema has already taken place and that all the members of the complete body of Christ have received their rewards ( Stephanos Crowns ).
Now this also raises another important question and reveals another important clue which some have failed to see. Those who hold to the view that the Church or at least part of the Church will enter into the tribulation period have a big problem to solve.
Question: Since there is only "one" Bema Seat event that the apostle Paul teaches in-which the "whole" body of Christ ( one body Eph. 4:4) will be present collectively ( every member), and since the "Bema Seat" and this Greek term for it is NOT mentioned, taught, nor found anywhere in the book of Revelation, then where, when, and how can the those members of the body of Christ, who were supposedly left behind, possibly get their rewards? This shows once again that "all" the complete body of Christ will be present at this "one" event yet future. Christ is NOT returning for a "dismembered body" and He CANNOT and WILL NOT dismember His own body by any means! He is coming for His Church in order to "Complete" the body of Christ and close the "Church age" of grace.
Now once one understands who the "24 elders" are, then they will understand that the Church can have NO part in the judgments of the tribulation period, which is national Israel's judgment program ( the completion of Dan. 70th week ). The Bema Seat of Christ does not and cannot take place in the "middle" of the tribulation, and neither does it take place at the "End" of the tribulation period. The Church is already seated with Christ and ruling and reigning with Him in Rev. 4:4. The "bride of Christ" is seen coming with Christ from heaven in Revelation 19:11-14. She is already dressed in fine linen white and clean , which represents the righteousness of the saints ( Rev. 19:14 ). She has been with Christ in heaven throughout the whole period of the tribulation. Therefore the Bema does not take place at this time.
Rev. 19:11-14........."And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war"......................"And His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many diadems; and He has a name written upon Him which no one knows except Himself"...................."And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and HIs name is called The Word of God".........................."And the armies which are in heaven ( the saints ), clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses."
The Bema Seat of Christ
In Christ, Tom Gaston, Rapturetj@comcast.net
> > The Bema takes place "nowhere else" but at the "close" of the Church age. It is the next event following the resurrection of the Church.
To me, the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place on the first day of his Millennial Kingdom. It follows the 2nd Rapture. Like Solomon, Christ will purge his kingdom at the outset.
> > The Bema Seat of Christ does not and cannot take place in the "middle" of the tribulation, and neither does it take place at the "End" of the tribulation period.
Rev 11:15-19 tells us quite a bit about what happens on the first day of Jesus' Millennial Kingdom, which is at the end of the Tribulation. That is the Day of the Last-Trump Rapture, the day all the saved, great and small, receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Day of God's Wrath.
It says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on the day Jesus receives his kingdom), and wast (at the First Advent), and art to come (at the Second Advent 7 months future, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." This is when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11 impact Earth.
Who are the 24 elders? I think they are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. Paul is one of the elders. In 1Co 6:3, he said, "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"
Nu 10:1-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both, i.e., at the Last-Trump Rapture), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture), then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."
To me, these "princes" that are gathered at the First-Trump Rapture are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. In Rev. 4:1, John is caught up to Heaven along with the other wise-virgin saints. In 4:4, we see him crowned and seated on his throne with the other 23 princes of Israel. These are like our Representatives in the government of God. The rest of the saints caught up in the First-Trump Rapture are seen in Rev. 5:9. Agape
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