Pro and Con 1567

Posted 9-15-2010

A chamelion

Asteroid Strikes Colombia - American Media Buries It!

Lucus & Floyd Anderson 09/06/2010
http://rabbithole2.com/news/top_news/asteroid_hits_columbia_american_media_buries_it.php

Around 3:10PM Sunday afternoon residents of Colombia were awestruck when the clear sky was cracked open by a massive fireball that exploded upon impact leaving a 300 foot wide crater and a lot of rattled nerves.

Indonesian volcano blows again, biggest eruption yet

By Tarmizy Harva, Tue Sep 7, 2010
http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE6860QQ20100907

BERASTEPU, Indonesia (Reuters) - An Indonesian volcano that lay dormant for 400 years shot ash 5 km (3 miles) into the air on Tuesday, its biggest eruption since it became active last week, and experts warned of more blasts to come.

Mount Sinabung, in northern Sumatra island, first erupted on August 29. Villages on its slopes have been evacuated and around 24,500 people are living in refugee camps...

The Day of The RAPTURE!!!

Hello Good Sister Marilyn,
As you said, September 8th would past without the Rapture occuring. Thank You So Much for your wonderful Scriptural site! Now we have Oct. 25th to look forward to!!! "A Crown of Righteousness is laid up for those who Love His Appearing" See Ya'..Here There or in the Air! Sincerely

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. We should get that crown, because we sure do love his appearing. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Will Bride of Christ be here Mid-Trib?

Hello and we hope this note finds Ed and you feeling much better!

Does prophetic scripture teach that the Bride of Christ will be on Earth in the flesh at mid-Tribulation and will see sacrifices in the rebuilt Temple, the Abomination that Makes Desolate, Satan & his angels cast down to Earth, the two Witnesses, the Mark & Image of the Beast and the destruction of Babylon before the first harpazo?

Thanks in advance

My reply

I go tomorrow for a CT scan of lungs. Thought I got out of it, but they called and rescheduled it. Ed is eating better, but still can't stand up. Finally got a Lift. That should help, but it sure was hard for two of us to get him from the Lift to the shower bench. With our bad backs, we can't do that every day. I got him into the wheelchair and back in bed after 30 minutes by myself though. That's impossible without the Lift.

> > Does prophetic scripture teach that the Bride of Christ will be on Earth in the flesh at mid-Tribulation

No. The Bride is in Heaven in Rev. 4 and 5. She sees Jesus given the 7-sealed book, the Title Deed of the Earth. The first seal is broken in Rev. 6.

Rev. 17 is talking about the time of the Rapture, because at that time, "they that ARE with him (the Lamb of God, Lord of lords, and King of kings, Christ) are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

Of the time of the Rapture, Rev 17:10 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and ONE IS (the Pope), and the other (the False Prophet) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (the shortened Great Tribulation).

Seven kings, rulers of 7 Empires

1. Babel, ruled by Nimrod
2. Babylon II, ruled by Nebuchadnezzar, etc.
3. Media-Persia, ruled by Evil-Merodach, etc.
4. Greece, ruled by Alexander
5. Holy Roman Empire, ruled by the Caesars
6, Roman Ecclesiastical Empire, ruled by the Popes
7. Babylon III, ruled by the False Prophet

Rev 6:2 says, "behold a white horse: and he (the 6th head of the great red dragon, the Pope, ruler of the Roman Ecclesiastical Empire) that sat on him had a bow (toxon, simple fabric, symbol of a man of the cloth, a religious leader); and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Today, the Bride is still here, the seven-sealed book has not yet been given to Christ, the first Seal has not been broken, and the Pope has not yet been given a crown.

That might change on Cheshvan 17, 5771, Oct. 25, 2010. The Lord will come unto us as the rain. The first rain since Adam was put on Earth started on Cheshvan 17 in Noah's day.

De 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain (FORMER RAIN, TISHRI 1) and the LATTER RAIN" (NISAN 1).

Psa 72:6 says, "He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth."

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the MORNING (HE IS THE MORNING STAR AT THE TIME OF THE RAPTURE, Rev. 22:16,17); and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, as the LATTER (RAIN NISAN 1) and FORMER RAIN (TISHRI 1) unto the earth."

Rev 22:16,17 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come."

The morning star has something to do with the Rapture, and Saturn is the ONLY morning star in the sky from about 1:15 AM to Sunup from Oct. 15 through the end of this year. It will rise a little earlier each night until it rises at midnight in early December. This was not true last year. It will not be true next year. This year is special.

The Lord may come as the rain four times.

1. First Advent on Tishri 1, accomplished
2. First-Trump Rapture on Cheshvan 17
3. Last-Trump Rapture on Tishri 1
4. Second Advent on Nisan 1

In Mt 24, Jesus said, 36 "But of that DAY AND HOUR knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But AS THE DAYS OF NOE WERE, SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE. (THE RAIN STARTED ON CHESHVAN 17 IN NOAH'S DAY) 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark (CHESHVAN 17), 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE (i.e., on Cheshvan 17). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left (i.e., at the Rapture). 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what HOUR your Lord doth come (i.e., but the day is Cheshvan 17). 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up (i.e., in the church, there are both wise and foolish virgins, and the foolish will be left behind at the First-Trump Rapture). 44 Therefore be ye also ready (use 1 John 1:9, confess sins committed after accepting Christ): for in such an HOUR as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

In verse 36, Jesus said we did not know the day or hour. In verses 42 and 44, he said we did not know the hour. In between these verses, it looks like he told us the day, Cheshvan 17. We sure have to read Scripture carefully to have a chance to grasp everything it implies. Agape

My reply, Re: Oliver: "Isaac Newton's Interpretation of Dan 9:25" (omitted)

Thanks for your interesting information about Isaac Newton.

Your last date mentioned, June 5, 2016, is close to the date I think will turn out to be the Second Advent, Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016, the first day of the Sacred, Regnal and Jubilee Year. As you know, the year 5776 can be the Jubilee, because 5775 is a Sabbatic year.

The Jubilee Year would be announced on the previous Day of Atonement, Sept. 23, 2015, a few days after the Day of God's Wrath, Sept. 14, 2015, when I think the two asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11 will impact Earth on the Feast of Trumpets.

I think the first Rapture will probably be Cheshvan 17, 5771, Oct. 25, 2010. After all, the Bible tells us that the Lord will come unto us as the rain. The first rain arrived on Cheshvan 17 in Noah's day. I just posted an article on my Home Page: "WILL JESUS COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN FOUR TIMES?

1. First Coming as the former rain, Tishri 1, 3757 (Sept 4, 5 BC), accomplished

2. First Rapture as the rain in Noah's day, Cheshvan 17, 5771 (Oct 25, 2010)?

3. Second Rapture as the former rain, Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept 14, 2015)?

4. Second Coming as the latter rain, Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016)?

THE LORD SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE MORNING, PROBABLY AS THE MORNING STAR, AND AS THE RAIN

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: HIS GOING FORTH IS PREPARED AS THE MORNING (maybe as the morning star); and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, as the latter (Nisan 1) and former rain (Tishri 1, Unger's Bible Dictionary, Calendar) unto the earth."

Psa 72:6-8 says, "HE SHALL COME DOWN LIKE RAIN upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth. In his days (Day of Christ [first Rapture, probably on Cheshvan 17, 5771, Oct. 25, 2010] and Day of the Lord [second Rapture just before God's Wrath falls on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5776, Sept. 14, 2015]) shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. He shall have dominion (on the Day of the Lord) also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth."

De 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain (Tishri 1) and the latter rain" (Nisan 1). Agape

NZ Quake Pushes Earth Surface 11 ft To Right (but no fatalities)

Earth's surface 'lurches 11ft to the right' as New Zealand earthquake rips new fault line
By Daily Mail Reporter, 6 Sept 2010

The earthquake that devastated a city in New Zealand tore open a new 11ft faultine (fault line) in the Earth’s surface. The 7.1-magnitude quake which hit Christchurch, the country’s second-largest city, destroyed about 500 buildings and caused an estimated £930million of damage....

The fact that no one was killed was put down to the timing of the quake and strict building codes.

My comment

Because this was at Christchurch, I think the fact that there were no dead bodies just might teach us that no dead bodies will be left behind at the Rapture of Christ's Church.

The Purchasing Of The Holy Spirit

Thank you for the numerous teachings you post on the Doves. God bless you for the enormous time, effort, & research you put into these teachings. They are a blessing.

I would like your input into the following: I was always under the understanding that oil was representative of the Holy spirit. I am somewhat confused regarding the scripture on the Ten Virgins in Mt. 25:5. How can five virgins go and buy oil from those who sell. The Holy Spirit is not for sale. You cannot buy the Holy Spirit. What am I missing or not understanding?

I enjoy reading the Doves and have read them faithfully on a daily basis. Lately I’ve been an infrequent visitor because of too many “Rapture” date setters. Seems like too many want to see their predictions to be the right one. The problem with that is if they are correct, no one will be here to pat them on the back. The best thing I’ve enjoyed recently was on the “Partial Rapture” by Lyn Mize. I found that teaching to be interesting and plausible.

Thanking you in advance, Have a Blessed Day!

My reply

> > How can five virgins go and buy oil from those who sell. The Holy Spirit is not for sale. You cannot buy the Holy Spirit. What am I missing or not understanding?

We can't buy the Holy Spirit with money, but one way we can obtain more of the Holy Spirit is by confessing sins committed after we accept Christ to bring them under the blood of Christ too. When we accept Christ, all our old sins are wiped off the books. We start over, but what about sins committed afterward? Those have to be confessed.

1Jn 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Sin causes the level of the Holy Spirit in us to decrease, but confessing our sins lets it increase like a fountain of living water within us.

You mentioned Lyn Mise. I am reading something I found that he wrote about the Rapture(http://livingwalk.wordpress.com/2009/04/29/the-coming-rapture-by-lyn-mize/) and will comment on it as I go.

> > Lyn Mise: The Sardis church and the church of Thyatira will also be rejected by Jesus Christ at the Firstfruits Rapture.

I think there will be some overcomers in each group, even in the Thyatira group.

Rev 2:24-29 says, "But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star (symbol of Jesus and of the place of his heavenly throne). He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

> > Lyn Mise: "It is important to note that in the original Greek the lamps of the five foolish virgins were “going out”—not “gone out”—and the five wise virgins told the foolish virgins to “go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.” This clearly teaches that the extra measure of oil is related to works, since it had to be bought. Grace can not be bought. The indwelling Holy Spirit is a free gift of grace, but the filling of the Holy Spirit is clearly a work involving our submission to the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:16-18). The five wise virgins had made preparation for the coming of the Bridegroom, and they were given the open door. The five foolish virgins had not prepared themselves, and they were turned away."

2Peter 1:4-11 has something to say about the "divine nature." It says, "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE (i.e., the Holy Spirit), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (agape, God's kind of love). For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the blind Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS (i.e., when he accepted Christ as his own personal Saviour). Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

When we accept Jesus as our own personal Saviour, all "old sins" are forgiven. After that, when we sin, we should confess that sin to bring it under the blood of Christ too.

1Jn 1:5-9 says, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light (i.e., no sin), and in him is no darkness (sin) at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (sin), we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light (no sin), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS (i.e., known sins), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness" (known and unknown sins).

> > Lyn Mise: Mature Christians need to be faithful to the Lord and consciously looking for His return.

I agree. At my web site and at the Five Doves site, we are watching and trying our best to figure out the timing of end-time events. Some are grasping at straws in the wind, but I have to give them credit for trying. That is better than not trying. In Mark 13:23, Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you ALL THINGS." Wow! What a statement!

All the clues we need are in the Bible some place, if we could just figure out where. It is not as plain as it could be on purpose. To unbelievers, it is supposed to be so much nonsense. It takes the indwelling Holy Spirit to understand the deep things.

In the past, I have looked hard for clues to different dates, starting with Pentecost, 1998. I researched Ascension Day. The name made sense. Recently, I thought the Feast of Trumpets might be the day of the Rapture, because Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ. He was born on Trumpets. the Tribulation saints will be raptured on Trumpets, so maybe the Bride of Christ would have the same September birthstone, the sapphire, which means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear.

Now, I think our best chance is Cheshvan 17, 5771, October 25, 2010. I'd like to explain why. One reason is because Saturn will be the only morning star in the sky from about 1:15 AM to Sunup. Jesus said he was the bright and morning star, and I think Saturn is the location of his throne (Eze. 1:1, 26-28). It's symbol is the sapphire. At Mt. Sinai, the pavement under God's feet was sapphire. That ties in.

I know you are not keen on dates, but I do hope you will give this some thought. It's only taken me 50 years of searching to put it all together.

Speaking of the day we are caught up when Heaven's door opens, i.e. the Rapture. in Mt. 24:36, Jesus said, "But of that DAY AND HOUR knoweth no man". However, in verse 37, he said, "BUT AS THE DAYS OF NOE WERE, SO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE." It began to rain in Noah's day on Cheshvan 17.

After saying no man knows the day or hour in Mt. 24:36, in Mt. 24:42 and 44, Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what HOUR your Lord doth come....Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an HOUR as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

In these verses, Jesus didn't repeat that we wouldn't know the day, just the hour. I think it is because he gave us the clue to the day in between verses 36 and 42, i.e., Cheshvan 17.

Does Gen 7:11-13 tell us the date of the Rapture? It says, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month (Cheshvan), the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and THE WINDOWS OF HEAVEN WERE OPENED. And the RAIN was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day (Cheshvan 17) entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark".

Maybe Jesus will come three times as the rain, as the Former Rain at the First Advent, as the Latter Rain at the Second Advent, and as the rain in Noah's day at the First-Trump Rapture. We know the Last-Trump Rapture will be on the Feast of Trumpets, because that is the Day of God's Wrath (Joel 2:1-3; Rev. 6:l7; 7:14; 8:1f).

In Noah's day, The Lord CAME DOWN to close the door to the Ark on Cheshvan 17, the same day it began to rain. The door had been open for about 120 years.

In modern times, the first Zionist Congress met Aug. 29, 1897 in Basle, Switzerland, with 160 delegates from seventeen countries.

1897 + 120 years = 2017, and I think the Jubilee Year will be Nisan 1, 5776 (Sat, April 9, 2016) to Nisan 1, 5777 (Tue, March 28, 2017.

Saturday is perfect for the Second Advent. Jesus said he was Lord of the Sabbath, but there seems to be more meaning to that.

It is interesting that the Hebrew for Saturn, Shabbatai, is so like that for Sabbath, Shabbat. I guess it is because Saturday is the 7th day and, according to Josephus, Saturn was represented by the 7th lamp on the lampstand in the Temple. The western lamp was the Sun. That is why they were to always keep it burning. Next were Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, the last naked-eye planet.

JESUS WILL COME AS THE RAIN

Psa 72:6-8 says, "HE SHALL COME DOWN LIKE RAIN upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth. In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth."

He came as the former rain at his First Advent on Tishri 1. He will come as the latter rain at his Second Advent on Nisan 1. Will he also come at the First-Trump Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18) as the rain in Noah's day, on Cheshvan 17? I think so.

Joel 2:23 says, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain (Jesus' First Advent on Tishri 1) moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." The former rain comes Tishri 1, and the latter rain comes Nisan 1, which I think will be the first day of the Jubilee Year.

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning (i.e., as the bright and morning star); and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN (the Rapture as in Noah's day, Cheshvan 17?), as the latter (Nisan 1, second coming) and former rain (Tishri 1, first coming) unto the earth."

In Rev 22:16, Jesus said, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

James 5:7,8 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."

Jer 5:24 Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD OUR GOD, THAT GIVETH RAIN, BOTH THE FORMER AND THE LATTER, IN HIS SEASON: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest." Olives are harvested in the fall, until Hanukkuh.

Rom 11:17 says, "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being A WILD OLIVE TREE, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree".

> > Lyn Mise: Pentecost ... Firstfruits Rapture ... Trumpets ... Main Harvest Rapture - All Remaining Christians Raptured

I started out thinking the first Rapture would be on Pentecost, but I now think the First-Trump Rapture of I Thess. 4:16,17 will be on Cheshvan 17, Oct. 25, 2010, and the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor. 15:51,52 will be on Trumpets Tishri 1, 5776, Sept. 14, 2015.

There are the necessary 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13) between Tishri 1, 5776 (Day of God's Wrath) and Nisan 1, 5776 (first day of the Sacred, Regnal and Jubilee Years), because 5776 is a leap year. I think Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016, will be the perfect time for the Second Advent.

As a double check, the year preceding the Jubilee starting in 5776 must be a Sabbatic Year, and 5775 is Sabbatic. To me, this seems to lock the Jubilee in place.

The next Sabbatic year would be 7 years in the future. That would not be a Jubilee Year, either. I think Jesus will return in a Jubilee Year, because that is when the 12 tribes will be returned to their ancentral plot of land.

ANOTHER CLUE

The Balfour Declaration was signed on Cheshvan 17, 5678, Nov. 2, 1917, a Jubilee Year. This gave the Jews the right to return to Palestine.

The Jubilee cycle is a 49-year cycle. The 50th year is both the Jubilee and year one of the next cycle.

5677 + 49 = 5726, a Sabbatic Year.
5727 was a Jubilee Year and the year of the Six-Day War.

5726 + 49 = 5775, a Sabbatic Year.
5776 will be the Jubilee Year and, I think, the year of the Second Advent.

To me, it is as if the end times fell into their proper notch, and I can't see how they can be moved. Can you?

> > Lyn Mise: The following Scriptures are often used as arguments against the Firstfruits Rapture since they clearly refer to the entire Church being raptured. It is true that these Scriptures are referring to the entire Church still on the earth since they are describing the Main Harvest Rapture of the Church.
> > 1 Th 4:13-18 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
> > 1 Cor 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
> > Lyn Mise: Paul is teaching about the Main Harvest Rapture in both of these passages.

I think I Thess 4:13-18 is talking about the First-Trump Rapture (probably on Cheshvan 17, 5771, Oct 25, 2010), and I Cor. 15:51,52 is talking about the Last-Trump Rapture (probably on Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015). You can't have a last trump unless you have a first trump preceding it.

> > Lyn Mise: Numerous other Scriptures clearly establish that not all Christians will receive crowns and thrones. These Christians make up the churches of Thyatira, Sardis and Laodicea, and these are the churches that will go through the first three and one-half years of the tribulation. Thyatira was specifically told that she would be cast into “great tribulation” (Rev. 2:22).

To me, the Great Tribulation is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel, not the first half.

> > Lyn Mise: The wrath of God is not unleashed upon the earth until the middle of the tribulation when the trumpet Judgments begin

I think the wrath of God hits at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation when the False Prophet is deposed, not Mid-Trib when he takes office.

> > Lyn Mise: When the Church is completely removed in the middle of the tribulation, Satan then turns his vengeance upon God’s earthly people, the Jews. The last half of the tribulation period is called the “time of Jacob’s trouble”,

To me, the "time of Jacob's trouble" is a day like no other, the Day of God's Wrath, the last day of the shortened Great Tribulation. Jer 30:7 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

> > Lyn Mise: No Christian or member of the Church will be on the earth during the last half of the tribulation period. The last half of the tribulation period is the Day of the Lord. It is the time that God’s wrath will be unleashed upon the earth in the trumpet and vial judgments described in Revelation.

To me, the great and terrible Day of the Lord is one day, the Day of God's Wrath, at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. That is when I think the 2nd Rapture will take place just before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth.
Acts 2:20 says, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come". That is at the end of the Great Tribulation, not Mid-Trib.

Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." That fits the Day of God's Wrath. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Will the Bride be here at Mid-Trib?

Hi Ms. Agee and thanks very much for taking time to send us your email. We pray that Ed & your health will improve in the coming weeks and that you both will feel better.

Our pastor teaches that Rev 4 & 5 shows that the Bride of Christ is not in Heaven at the time the first seal is broken. His teaching is that in the original Greek, the 'they' in Rev 5 verse 9 refers back strictly to the Elders and not to saints.

There is also no other reference to the Bride in the chapter. Our pastor teaches a pre-wrath translation, but the Bride will endure on Earth in the flesh through to mid-Tribulation & beyond.

Do you think this pastor understands the prophetic teachings correctly? Thanks again for your email.

My reply

Thanks for your prayers.

> > His teaching is that in the original Greek, the 'they' in Rev 5 verse 9 refers back strictly to the Elders and not to saints.

I think the elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the 12 apostles of Israel. John is one of the elders. He takes his seat among them after being raptured in Rev. 4:1. I think the elders are all of one nation.

For sure, the saints are out of "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation". There are many more than 24 nations. The two groups are not each of 24 people. Therefore, to me, the second group are the raptured saints, firstfruits, the Bride of Christ.

James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Rev 5:8,9 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and FOUR AND TWENTY ELDERS fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of SAINTS. And THEY (the saints) SUNG A NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND NATION".

Let's read about the 144,000 Israelite Tribulation saints. That's a lot more than 24. Notice that they too are virgins and sing the NEW SONG. It seems to me that the Bride sings the new song.

Rev 14:1-5 says, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads (then they are saints). And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they (the 144,000) sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and BEFORE the four beasts, and THE ELDERS: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND (Israelites), WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

This firstfruits is made up of two groups of saints, raptured at two different times. The first group is mainly Gentile. The last group includes the 144,000 Israelites.

If the 144,000 Israelites are added to the Bride group, only that part of the Bride would be here Mid-Trib. Those caught up in the first Rapture will not be here Mid-Trib.

> > Do you think this pastor understands the prophetic teachings correctly?

I have to disagree with him on the identity of the people out of every nation in Rev. 5:9. There are only 24 elders, and there are many more than 24 in the saints group of Rev. 5:9. They can't be the same group. Agape

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