Pro and Con 1641

Posted 12-19-2011

Fogbow over the Arctic photographed from an Icebreaker

Incoming e-mail, Re: I think this means something, might add to the significance of the sign... being able to see something that is physically impossible

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/08/saturdays-lunar-eclipse-will-include-impossible-sight/

My reply

Thanks. I didn't know this could ever happen. It could be a sign all by itself, but added to the fact that the eclipse of 12-10-11 was the last Total Lunar Eclipse before the tetrads of 2014/2015 should really get our attention. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Pentecost, May 29, 2009

I was reading your posting on Five Doves of 5/15/2011 regarding Pentecost, and you were correcting the date from 2008 to 2009. I am sorry I have not been following all of the posts, too much going on in my life right now personally to allow me the time. This particular posting really caught my attention though because I do believe that something very significant occurred on Pentecost, May 29, 2009. I personally encountered something very unusual that day and because of the nature of how it occurred, I have maintained in my spirit that the rapture was going to be different than I had always believed... and I truly believe that it began that day. I will share with you what occurred, and I ask that you take it to prayer for discernment. I don't fully understand why I was allowed to see this events and for what purpose, but I do believe they were of God and that for some reason He allowed me to experience it. I have been looking for the Lord's return since the early 1970s and have been especially interested in the Lord's Feasts for the timing of this marvelous event, and in recent years believing that it perhaps would occur on Pentecost some year. I will share the events of that day with you; it was very exciting to witness and to be a part of....

First a little background..... I live in Florence, Oregon, on the central coast. We moved here from California after my husband retired from P.G. & E. utility company. He was 55 when he retired and I kept working in the health care field. Our marriage was centered on God, family, music (especially Christian), nature and being of help whereever we could be. Sadly, my husband developed Alzheimer's disease and by May of 2009, it became necessary for me to place him in a skilled nursing facility for assistance with his care. He was a very tall, big man, and it became impossible for me to care for him any longer at home. My husband went to be with the Lord on May 14th of this year. I had just placed him in a facility when the events of 5/29/2009 occurred, and I will share below what occurred. I have shared this with very few people, mostly family that lived in this area also, and a few individuals that might understand and be able to discern the events and place understanding on them.

May 29, 2009, was a bright sunny day here in Florence. It was a Saturday morning, and in addition to going to be with my husband at the care center, I had promised my daughter that I would help her get the grandkids to a scouting event down the coast a ways. They were hiking in to a lake and spending the night, and the men that were taking them did not want to leave their cars parked near the highway overnight, so several us transported kids to the meeting area for the hike. It was about 10 AM when I drove over to my daughter's house to pick up the boys. I was driving on a two-lane street when I began to encounter some very unusual events. I began to see people dressed in India clothing walking along the side of the road. There were probably 15 to 20 of them, and they were walking in groups of 3-4 people. It was a very unusual sight because it was not a typical place to take a hike.... there are many lovely spots for hiking in this area, but this particular place was narrow and not particularly a spot that tourists would choose to hike. There was not a hotel/motel close by, and there was not a tourist bus. They were just meandering along, and looked very much out of place..... truly, just an unusual sight. As I drove along I began to encounter chipmunks (many of them) running back and forth across the road.... you can encounter a chipmunk to dart out occasionally, but never anything like what was occurring this morning.... After I picked the boys up and started back, they also commented on the chipmunks and the number of them acting oddly. We encountered the people from India again, and we all agreed that it was unusual. I got them where they were going and then went on with my day.

About six that evening my sister who had her son and his family visiting, asked me to go to the local McDonalds with her and the kids for hamburgers. She was watching the kids while the parents went out to dinner. My daughter and 8-year-old grandson joined us too. While my sister and daughter were getting the kids settled, I was sitting at a table looking out at the highway (Coast 101) and saw another unusual sight. There were four people just meandering down the sidewalk dressed in clothing not of this era. It was very unusual..... They looked very out of place and were just sort of meandering along. This is a small town, and I had never seen them before.... It was just odd...

I ended the day and went to sleep... About 2 AM I was awakened suddenly, and there was a voice, not audible out loud, but just knowing that it was the Lord speaking to me... He said: "What you saw today was very significant. The rapture is not going to occur as you have always been taught." He then gave me two scriptures: The first one was 1Thes, Chapter 4, vs 16-17. The Lord seemed to stress, the way it was written with special emphasis on the "then"... I had the impression that the event was not necessarily simultaneous... that the dead in Christ may rise, and then those who are "alive and remain" may not be immediate.... Even the punctation seems to imply that perhaps it is not simultaneous event. The next scripture that He impressed on my mind was: Matthew Chapter 27, verses 52 and 53, where it is talking about the graves being opened at the time of Jesus death.... Can you see the correlation between these two verses? The more I ponder this, the more I can, especially after seeing the events that I witnessed that day.

I am sharing this with you and hoping that you can help discern the events. You don't know me personally, so naturally you may question the validity of what I have shared here. I can understand that, but did want to share it with you anyway..... I know something very significant occurred on May 29, 2009, I witnessed something very unusual and I do believe in my heart that the Rapture began that very day.

God Bless you and hopefully we will be "going home" soon.

A Sister In Christ, Jeanne Engman

My reply

> > ...there was a voice, not audible out loud, but just knowing that it was the Lord speaking to me... He said: "What you saw today was very significant. The rapture is not going to occur as you have always been taught."

How have you been taught? I wonder if that refers to Pre-Trib, or just to when the dead in Christ are caught up. Could they be caught up on Pentecost and then we be caught up on Hanukkah? Or could it refer to whether we are all caught up on one day or over an 8-day period of time. Let me know your thoughts.

We seem to be in the first half of the Tribulation now. I always thought the Rapture would be Pre-Trib until we passed Pentecost 2009, the very day of your experience. Now, I think Song of Solomon 2:10f refers to our ascension to New Jerusalem after we come back with Christ at the Second Advent.

I sure do understand how the Lord spoke to you. One time, after waking me up in the middle of the night, he said to me, "Be still and know that I am God." I can't tell you if it was audible to my ears or not, but I sure heard his voice in my brain as if transmitted by the auditory nerve, and knew it was real. I didn't dream it, or hear it at a distance. He sounded like he was right there with me. I didn't move a muscle until daylight, either. If anything else took place, I was not aware of it at the time, but I certainly do have a great drive to try my best to understand everything in the Bible. I neglect the house to spend time on the computer. Since Ed calls me lots during the time he is awake, I try to work on the computer all or most of the night and take naps during the day, never aiming for more than 5 hours of sleep a day. Where I used to frequent libraries in 5 cities, I now study on the computer. Google can now bring up information much faster than the libraries. I'm so lucky. I have 26 Bibles on eSword to access on my computer. I'm on my 7th computer. Ed started me out on the first Mac, but along the way, someone very nice bought me a PC after MSWindows came out so I could have more than 17 Megs of memory and could open just about anything. I'm glad I never had to learn to use DOS. Last year my daughter bought me a wider screen monitor than my previous one someone nice bought me. It is about a third wider and just perfect for someone with low vision. I enlarge the letters to fit the screen. Now with my improved vision and wider screen, I can read most things online about as well as I did before I got cataracts. When someone posts on Five Doves with a phone though, I just don't read that one. The letters barely look like light gray shadows. I would sure have to use the magnifier for that. Lately, someone sent me part of a new book about the Washington Codex. I liked the book, but had to use the magnifier. That about put my eyes out. I couldn't even drive to the Jack-in-the-Box near me the day after that. There seemed to be a pretty thick cloud in the family room and kitchen for a couple of days. I like 12 font size Ariel black the best.

I wonder what the Lord meant when he spoke of the Rapture not being as you were taught. Real food for thought. I'll read those verses in every Bible on eSword and look up the original words to see if anything different turns up.

I got the feeling right away that the people from India and those in clothing from another era were angels, messengers, trying to show you something. The chipmunks seem to have been spooked by the mere presence of angels.

Have you read on Five Doves about the angel encounters of Vincent Tan? You can read about them at http://www.choicesforliving.com/spirit/part3/angels.htm

...I'm so sorry your husband couldn't make it to the Rapture. I can sure connect with you trying to take care of him. I'm trying to take care of mine too....

Our son had a dream that he and I were going up in the Rapture, but I'm hoping Ed can hold out long enough to go with us. He is 87. I'll be 83 Tuesday.

> > Pentecost, May 29, 2009. I personally encountered something very unusual that day and because of the nature of how it occurred, I have maintained in my spirit that the rapture was going to be different than I had always believed... and I truly believe that it began that day.

Back in the late 60s and early 70s several people gave angels rides in their cars in the LA area thinking they were people. After saying that Jesus was coming soon, they disappeared, leaving people wondering how soon. At the time, I thought the Rapture would be on Pentecost in 1998.

These things make me wonder if you actually saw angels representing resurrected people on Pentecost, May 29, 2009 (our daughter's birthday). It sure gives us lots to think about.

That incident could indicate that the saints that had died actually got their resurrection bodies on Pentecost, May 29, 2009, or it could be symbolic.

Now, I'm hoping for the Rapture on Dec 21, 2011, first day of Hanukkah. Mid-Trib may be Dec 21, 2012, the end of the Aztec and Mayan Calendars.

> > the Lord speaking to me... said: "WHAT YOU SAW TODAY WAS VERY SIGNIFICANT. THE RAPTURE IS NOT GOING TO OCCUR AS YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT." He then gave me two scriptures: The first one was 1Thes, Chapter 4, vs 16-17. The Lord seemed to stress, the way it was written with special emphasis on the "then"... I had the impression that the event was not necessarily simultaneous... that the dead in Christ may rise, and then those who are "alive and remain" may not be immediate.... Even the punctation seems to imply that perhaps it is not simultaneous event.

Punctuation was not in the original. It was added later. 1Th 4:16,17 says, "For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD (i.e., I can't see that happening twice, once for the dead and later for the living, maybe it only happens when we are caught up): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I had thought that these would all be caught up at the same time, but maybe not. The word "together" can mean at the same time. The Greek word, Strong's G260 hama, means, A primary particle; properly at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association: - also, and, together, with (-al).

However, with your news, the bulk of the dead in Christ may be raised up some time before the trumpet calls us up, but still be in close association, eventually to be part of the same group.

> > The next scripture that He impressed on my mind was: Matthew Chapter 27, verses 52 and 53, where it is talking about the graves being opened at the time of Jesus death.... Can you see the correlation between these two verses?

Yes. It says, "And the graves were opened; and MANY (i.e., maybe not all) bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Since those people were seen in Jerusalem, it could easily correlate with your seeing strange people in your town.

> > I know something very significant occurred on May 29, 2009, I witnessed something very unusual and I do believe in my heart that the Rapture began that very day.

Since you have that feeling, maybe some of the dead in Christ were raised that day. If it wasn't so long ago, I would think it could mean that the Rapture would be on Pentecost. However, it doesn't seem to have been on Pentecost in 2009, 2010 or 2011. I don't think it can be much longer now though.

I expect the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5776, Sat April 9, 2016, and I still hope the Rapture will be on Hanukkah, Dec 21, 2011. I want Ed to go up with Dave and me, and I don't know if he can make it to next Pentecost. We have planned to go up together for over 64 years. Our 65th wedding anniversary is coming up Jan 13, 2012, one month after my 83rd birthday Dec 13, 2011....

Nice people were praying for both of us, and a miracle happened. I have had low vision for several years, having cataracts in both eyes. The miracle is that my vision in my good eye is now so improved that I can read on my computer without glasses or magnifier. The letters that were light gray are now black. Colors are bright again. The white cloud has thinned. This improved vision is mostly evident when reading the computer, not when I walk out in the kitchen and family room, and especially not when I go outside in the blinding sunlight. For a long time I could see better to drive with my prescription sunglasses on, but today, I could see much better without them. Thank you for your financial help and prayers for us my friends, and Thank you Lord. In Jesus' wonderful name, Amen. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Pentecost, May 29, 2009: "The rapture is not going to occur as you have always been taught"

I was very happy to hear from you... Thank you for taking the time to respond.

First, to answer your question about how I have been taught.... I was taught pre-trib and a simultaneous event occuring in the twinkling of an eye. Then the 7-year tribulation with the temple being rebuilt in the city of Jerusalem, with the second coming at the end of the 7 years where every eye will see Him arriving in the sky, along with the saints who had been raptured returning with Him.

I agree with you that we are in the first half of the 7-year tribulation period now. In reflecting on the events occurring in the Revelation, it does seem to fit the great tribulation being 3.5 years - With the magnitude of what is described, it just feels that 7 years would be a tremendously long time to endure what will occur. We have been seeing so many major earthquakes and weather changes. I just don't feel too inclined to watch the news and to follow the world power maneuvering, but I do sense in my spirit that things are being very much put in place to fit total control of mankind by a world system, and ultimately by the antichrist. We are probably at that point now, with all things in place when the rapture occurs and total chaos takes over (even more than now)!

I might add that from my experience that day, 5/29/2009, something very significant occurred in the spiritual realm on that day. I think the rapture began and will culminate when those of us who are "alive and remain" will be caught up. Actually that phrase is worded very interestingly also..... "alive and remain".

I am including a link from a posting on Five Doves from August 1, 2010, from a man by the name Ray Schulz, who relates an experience that I feel very much was tied into the experience that I had on May 29, 2009. http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/rays82-2.htm I always look for his posts now on Five Doves because of this experience. What a wonderful Savior and Lord we have. When I see His hand moving and how He uses the saints to cooperate with the Holy Spirit as His Will is brought about in the lives of His Church (we who are alive and being used as an active part of His ministry on earth at this particular point in time), I just want to bow down and worship Him with praise and thanksgiving, and then cherish the very thought of being around His throne in heaven when the time has finally arrived .... What a day that will be!!

I will pray for you Marilyn and for your husband... I do understand the heartache of caring for a spouse who is suffering and weakening. I would like to share a picture of my dear darling Allen and I on a sunny day here in Florence, OR. I had taken him out for a drive several months before his death. He loved to ride with me and to drink his mochas.... This will be the first Christmas without him in 38 years.... and it would me the very desire of my heart to spend it with Him, Jesus, and the saints of the ages in our heavenly home... God's Will be done.

I will include the link to the picture, that way we will know one another in Heaven, even though I have a feeling we will probably know each other anyway....

God Bless you Marilyn today and always... Please stay in touch, and I will continue to look for your posts on Five Doves. Thanks too for sending the Vincent Tan encounter - I had read it before, but a while ago and I have printed it off and will re-read it during my devotion time this evening.

Love from your sister in Christ, Jeanne Engman

My reply

> > I was taught pre-trib and a simultaneous event occuring in the twinkling of an eye. Then the 7-year tribulation with the temple being rebuilt in the city of Jerusalem, with the second coming at the end of the 7 years where every eye will see Him arriving in the sky, along with the saints who had been raptured returning with Him.

I first read about the Rapture and thought it was as you describe, one Rapture then the Second Advent. However, as I kept reading the scriptures, I suddenly realized that there are two Raptures, a First-Trump Rapture (I Thess 4:16,17) and a Last-Trump Rapture (I Cor 15:51-54). How can there be a last unless there is a first?

This is something different from what you were taught.

THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE

1Th 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Revelation is arranged around the first Rapture, around Rev 4:1. Verse 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the first Rapture, before Rev 4:1), and the things which are (i.e., at the time of the first Rapture, at Rev 4:1), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the first Rapture, after Rev 4:1). Rev 4:1-4 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (i.e., at the first Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (i.e., after the first Rapture). 2 And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (Christ) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (first stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (last stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the first, LORD of the Old Testament, and the last, Lord of the New Testament, Isa 44:6): and there was a rainbow (i.e., Saturn's ring system) round about the throne (of the only God/man, on Saturn that has brightness all around, Eze 1:1,26-28), in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders (i.e., 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel, including John) sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE

1Co 15:51-53 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

After the second Rapture, Rev 7:13,14 says, "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (i.e., at the second Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath, Rev 6:17), and have washed their robes (the first group caught up were wearing white robes), and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Rev 14:1-5 says, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand (having been caught up in the second Rapture), having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song (as in Rev 1:9) before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man (including the foolish virgins) could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS (i.e., added to the Bride group who are the wise virgins). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb (i.e., to Christ, the God/man). 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."

At the First-Trump Rapture, the Bride of Christ becomes incorruptible. At the Last-Trump Rapture, the Tribulation saints become incorruptible, then all the saints become immortal in the twinkling of an eye.

1Th 4:16,,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP of God (i.e., the first trump): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It actually says nothing about the first Rapture happening in the twinkling of an eye. That is when the entire Body of Christ will become immortal at the last Rapture.

I looked up the Greek for "THEN". It says, G1899 epeita From G1909 and G1534; thereafter: - after that (-ward), then. G1909, epi, can mean after. G1534, ieta, means after that.

The word translated "then" can mean AFTERWARD, or AFTER THAT. Therefore, the dead in Christ could have been raised up on Pentecost, May 29, 2009, the day the Tribulation started.

THE TYPE OF THE TWO RAPTURES

Num 10:1-4 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them (i.e., both) for the calling of the assembly (i.e., the General Assembly in Heaven on the day of the last Rapture, Heb 12:22,23), and for the journeying of the camps (i.e., one from Earth, the Tribulation saints, Mark 13:27, one from Heaven, those caught up to Heaven previously, Mt 24:31, I Thess 4:16,17). 3 And when they shall blow with them (i.e., both), all (i.e., the saints of both Raptures) the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., the 24 elders), which are heads of the thousands (i.e., the 144,000) of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee" (Rev 4:1-4).

The "Come up hither" of Rev 4:1 represents the First-Trump Rapture. It says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The "Come up hither" of Rev 11:12 represents the Last-Trump Rapture. It takes place on the Day of God's Wrath, Rev 6:17;7:14.

There are three woes at the end of the Tribulation. Rev 9:12 says, "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

In Rev 11:1-3, the Temple is present, so it is the last half of the Tribulation. It says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (i.e., the last half of the Tribulation, while the believing Jews are in Petra). 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the last half of the Tribulation), clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 11:12-15 says, "And they (God's two witnesses) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud (probably representing the huge number of saints that will be caught up in the last Rapture); and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake (i.e., when the asteroid of Rev 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea), and the tenth part of the city (i.e., Jerusalem) fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The SECOND WOE IS PAST; and, behold, THE THIRD WOE COMETH QUICKLY. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

I think that day will be the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5776, Sept 14, 2015.

Rev 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD (i.e., at the Judgment Seat of Christ) unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

I hope we will be caught up at the first Rapture to meet Christ and the dead in Christ on Hanukkah, which starts Dec 21, 2011. The Church was born on Pentecost. It is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and the Dedication of the Temple was on Kislev 25, the day after Kislev 24, the day of Jesus' Conception (Hag 2:18,19), when the seed (Christ, Gen 3:15) was "in the barn" (meaning, in the womb).

Hanukkah is the 8th feast, and 8 is Jesus' number. It also means new beginning, and the Rapture will certainly be a new beginning for us. The number 21 is 7 + 7 + 7, and 7 is God's number of completion and perfection.

We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. After we are gone, the physical Temple can be built. The False Prophet is to sit in the Temple as if he is God at Mid-Trib. That could be at the Dedication of the Temple. Therefore, we should be raptured soon so the physical Temple can be built.

The oil ties the wise virgins of Mt 25 to the Dedication of the Temple too. The consecrated oil for one day lasted 8 days. Olives are harvested up to Hanukkah. None are harvested after that. It takes 8 days to make fresh pure oil for the Menorrah. Are we the Olive harvest?

Of Kislev 24, Hag 2:19 says, "Is the seed (i.e., Jesus, Gen 3:15) yet in the barn? (meaning is she pregnant) yea (YES, Jesus was conceived on Kislev 24), as yet the vine (Christ), and the fig tree (Israel), and the pomegranate (meaning the upright), and the OLIVE tree (i.e., with the Gentiles grafted in), hath not brought forth: from (i.e., after) this day (i.e., on Kislev 25) will I bless you."

The olive tree being blessed ties in with the olive oil for one day lasting 8 days. Having enough olive oil ties in with the wise virgins that are caught up in the first Rapture.

1Cor 15:51-54 refers to the second Rapture. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all (i.e., including Paul) be changed (i.e., become immortal), 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP (i.e., not at the first trump): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (i.e., the whole Body of Christ) shall be CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption (i.e., this happens at each Rapture), and this mortal must put on immortality (this only happens at the last Rapture). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, AND this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

At the last Rapture, the whole Body of Christ, including those caught up in the first Rapture, will be changed, actually become immortal, in the twinkling of an eye.

> > I might add that from my experience that day, 5/29/2009, something very significant occurred in the spiritual realm on that day. I think the rapture began and will culminate when those of us who are "alive and remain" will be caught up. Actually that phrase is worded very interestingly also..... "alive and remain".

I looked up "remain."

per-ee-li'-po, From G4012 and G3007; to leave all around, that is, (passively) survive: - remain.

That could be us. We are alive and remain past the time when we expected to be caught up.

Luke 21:25-36 is still what we hang our hopes on. It says, "And there shall be SIGNS in the sun (CMEs and Solar Eclipses), and in the moon (i.e., Lunar Eclipses, Blood Moons), and in the stars (comets like Elenin, asteroids like YU55 whizzing by between the Earth and Moon); and upon the earth distress of nations (wars, terrorism, financial troubles, floods, blizzards, hurricanes, radiation), with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring (i.e., Japan's tsunami, Mar 11, 2011); 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming (including the Day of God's Wrath) on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken (i.e., the two asteroids of Rev 8:8-11 will hit Earth on the Day of God's Wrath). 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud (i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky on the Day of God's Wrath) with power and great glory. 28 And when these things BEGIN (Japan's tsunami was Mar 11, 2011) to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (i.e., surrounding nations); 30 When they now shoot forth (i.e., in the Six-Day War), ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand (the Six-Day War was June 5-10, summer started June 21). 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation (48.33 years, Mt 1:17) shall not pass away (i.e., as in 2015.33 or Tishri 1, 5776, Sept 14, 2015), till all be fulfilled (i.e., including the Day of God's Wrath). 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (i.e., Day of God's Wrath) come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE (i.e., by being raptured) all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The two Raptures are the believer's escapes. I want to be in the first group. They are the Bride of Christ. They escape all these things. Of the last group, only the 144,000 are added to the Bride group (Rev 14:1-5). The key is that the Bride sings the NEW SONG.

BTW, Obama signaled that he is not one of us. Look at what he did to the Hanukkah menorah.

You can see that Obama's Hanukkah Menorrah has had another candleholder attached lower in front of the original central elevated one.

That's because the central elevated servant candle actually stands for Christ, the light of the world. All the other candles are lit by the central one. Obama is showing us that he is not for elevating Christ. He is for the opposite.

> > I will pray for you Marilyn and for your husband... I do understand the heartache of caring for a spouse who is suffering and weakening.

Thanks much. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: "Lauren RE: M. Agee's birthdate of Jesus - THE FACTS"

Kevin Heckle (7 Dec 2011)
"Lauren RE: M. Agee's birthdate of Jesus - THE FACTS"

I know Marilyn will speak for herself, but I wanted to support her correct notion that Jesus was born in the 6 BC to 5 BC range. While you have cited the passage in Luke, naming a certain year of Tiberius, it only REALLY identifies the year in which the Word of the Lord came to John the Baptist in the wilderness. The culmination of this particular narrative is in verse 20 and it regards John the Baptist's imprisonment, which is the more likely reason for the date cited (marking the importance of his imprisonment to the early Christians).

John 2:20 makes the statement that the Temple had 'been in the building for 46 years' and according to the narrative it was before the time of Passover in that same year, not many days after Jesus turned water into wine. This timeframe CERTAINLY marks the beginning of Jesus' ministry (John 2:11). It is well documented that Herod's major expansion (BUILDING) of the Temple Mount platform and the expansion of the Temple itself began in 19 BC. -19 + 46 = 27. There is no year zero, so subtract 1 year and the ministry of Jesus began in the 25-27 AD timeframe, depending on how specifically long the 46 years was and what the definition of a year was.

Jesus is declared the Christ (the Messiah or the Annointed) around 30 years of age, as you pointed out.

27 AD - 30 years -1(no year 0) = 4 BC Birthdate
26 AD - 30 years -1(no year 0) = 5 BC Birthdate
25 AD - 30 years -1(no year 0) = 6 BC Birthdate

This general timeframe then would agree with the historical FACT that Herod died in 4 BC. While alive, upon his meeting with the Magi, Herod decreed the deaths of any child 2 years and under. Jesus then had to be born at least in the 5-6 BC range being 1-2 years old prior to the likely imminent death of Herod, trying to secure the throne for his own offspring.

At this point, I have established TWO Biblical and historical facts confirming the pre- 4 BC birthdate of Jesus.

Now lets look at the narrative in Daniel:

Dan 9:25-26 KJV - [25] Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore AND to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [26] AND AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Notice there are TWO commandments, one to RESTORE and one to BUILD. There are also TWO decrees by Artaxerxes.

According to Ezra 7:6-16 Artaxerxes makes a decree funding the restoration of Jerusalem. The seventh year (verse 8) of Artaxerxes has been well established to be 457 BC. The other decree of Artaxerxes regarding the building of Jerusalem is established by Nehemiah 2:1-8 which is the twentieth year of Artaxerxes reign in 444 BC.

7 heptads + 62 heptads = 69 heptads (1 heptad = 7 years) 69 heptads = 69 * 7 = 483 years

So counting 483 years from 457 BC or 69 'weeks' from the decree to RESTORE unto Messiah the Prince comes to 25 or 26 AD.

Jesus was the ANNOINTED PRINCE which is the MEANING of MESSIAH, the Spirit descended upon Him like a dove at His baptism when he was about 30 years of age. "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased". This is the moment declared by GOD that Jesus was HIS SON, the ANNOINTED PRINCE, exactly 69 weeks of years after the decree to RESTORE Jerusalem in 457 BC by Artaxerxes, just as Daniel's prophecy said.

Now the second part: AFTER 62 weeks, the Messiah shall be cut-off, but not for himself.

62 Weeks = 434 years

So here we have the Bible declaring that AFTER 62 weeks (of years) from the declaration to BUILD Nehemiah's Jerusalem wall in troubleous times, the Messiah would be cut-off, but not for his own necessity.

From 444 BC (second decree) plus 434 years is 10 BC. The Bible says that sometime AFTER this 62 weeks that the Messiah would be cut-off. If the Bible had intended that this event would happen AFTER 63 weeks of years it would have said, 'after sixty-three weeks'. So between the 62nd full week and the 63rd week, the Messiah would be CUT-OFF. Therefore, sometime between 10 BC and 3 BC the Messiah would be cut-off but not for his own necessity. The specific word Daniel uses for CUT-OFF is Strongs H3772 karath. It means to CUT-OFF a body part, specifically relating to a covenant. In Jewish terms it means CIRCUMCISION in accordance with the Hebrew's covenant with the Lord.

Here is the Biblical use of CUT-OFF (H3772) relating to the act.

Exd 4:25a KJV - [25] Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off (H3772) the foreskin of her son.. .

Did the Son of God have a necessity to demonstrate the covenant with himself? Not for himself.

Jesus kept ALL of the law and was circumcised on the 8th day after His birth (according to the Law). It EXACTLY fulfilled Daniel's declaration that the Messiah would be cut-off AFTER 62 weeks, an indication of His birthdate, NOT His death. After all, He resurrected and NOTHING was cut-off at the crucifixion. Jesus laid down His own life and Jesus raised it back up again.

John 2:18-21 KJV - [18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? [19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? [21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

Its for another time, but I believe Jesus was specifically born on Julian day #1719337, exactly 34 solar years before His crucifixion.

YBIC, Kevin H.

For YOU to ponder:
Jesus ministry was a 3 to 3.5 year ministry. So if both the Bible and historical fact show Jesus was declared His Son, Messiah the Prince by God at His baptism 69 weeks of years after the first decree, then why did the 70 weeks stop there at 69? Or did it? It can be shown that there are 69.5 weeks, or 486.5 ecllesiastical years (by the Hebrew Lunar year average of 364 days divisible by 7) from the first decree until the Crucifixion/Ressurrection.

It wasn't until the 19th century that scholars and commentators attributed Daniel 9:27 to anybody OTHER than Jesus Christ. In the midst of a 7 (3.5 or so years) JESUS caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease FOREVER. He confirmed a NEW COVENANT. Upon His declaration "It is finished", the Temple veil was torn and the stones broken. What purpose could animal sacrifice and other gifts upon that Temple alter, being OVERSPREAD with corruptions and abominations, EVER serve again? Jesus FINISHED THE TRANSGRESSION, MADE AN END OF SINS, MADE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, ETC. Does that sound familiar? It is the PURPOSE Daniel gives in 9:24 for the 70 WEEKS. All that there is left after this Age of Grace is complete is the WRATH and JUDGEMENT of GOD, which we Christians will NOT have to endure.

My reply

Thanks for your support.

It isn't easy figuring out when Jesus was born. I worked on it for years. I was lucky though. When I began, I told Dr. Ehlert, head librarian of the BIOLA library, La Mirada, CA, at the time, what I was attempting to do. He showed me where to find a Th.D Thesis by Leslie Madison, "Problems in Chronology in the Life of Christ" (Dallas Theological Seminary). That helped a lot, but I had to prove whether he was right or wrong in his conclusions. I can't remember his date, but if I remember right, I ended up with a different one. I read just about everything I could find on the dates of Jesus' birth and crucifixion in the Seminary Collection.

> > Jesus FINISHED THE TRANSGRESSION, MADE AN END OF SINS

I don't think you really mean that. It is still future. Jesus didn't transgress at all. If the transgression of mankind was finished in 30 AD, Jerusalem and the Temple wouldn't have been burned in 70 AD, after 40 years of probation.

Re: the 40 years of probation, the "rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; NOR DID THE WESTERN MOST LIGHT SHINE; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves" (Soncino version, Yoma 39b)." "Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 C.E." by Nicholas Federoff (http://3dbibleproject.com/en/temple/details/evidence.htm)

DURING THE FESTIVAL SEASON OF A.D. 66

The Judgment on Jerusalem According to History

Heavenly phenomena - A star resembling a sword - A comet (Halley's Comet)
- A bright light shining around the altar and the temple
- A vision of chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds and all cities of Palestine.
Earthly phenomena
(reported by priests) - A quaking
- A great noise
- The sounds of a great multitude saying, "Let us remove hence." Source: The Last Days According to Jesus, R.C. Sproul

If Jesus had done away with transgression in 30 AD, we wouldn't have sin on Earth today. What about the Satan-possessed False Prophet sitting in the Temple Mid-Trib as if he were God? That's a sin. During the reign of the Beast and False prophet, there will be an "overspreading of abominations" (Dan 9:27).

Mt 24:15 says, "When ye see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place". That sin is still future today.

At the end of the Tribulation, God's Wrath will end the transgression and make an end of sin. The Beast and False Prophet will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Dan 9:27 (LITV) says, "And he (i.e., the Roman prince that shall come, the False Prophet) shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week (of years). And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator" (i.e., on the Roman prince that shall come, the False Prophet).

> > The specific word Daniel uses for CUT-OFF is Strongs H3772 karath. It means to CUT-OFF a body part, specifically relating to a covenant. In Jewish terms it means CIRCUMCISION.

In Dan 9, I think it means to perish, to be cut off from life, to be destroyed, killed. That happened at the Crucifixion in 30 AD.

Karath is translated destroy in Lev 26:42, which says, "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and DESTROY YOUR CATTLE (i.e., kill your cattle), and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate."

Strong's H3772, karath, A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (that is, make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh (i.e., killing an animal) and passing between the pieces): - be chewed, be con- [feder-] ate, covenant, cut (down, off), DESTROY, fail, feller, be freed, HEW (DOWN), make a league ([covenant]), X lose, PERISH, X utterly, X want.

> > I believe Jesus was specifically born on Julian day #1719337, exactly 34 solar years before His crucifixion.

That would be the Julian Fri April 16, 6 BC (Nisan 29, 3755). I think he was born on Tishri 1, in 5 BC. According to the sign in Rev 12, where the new crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet, that Tishri 1 would be Sept 4, 5 BC.

Haggai 2:18,19 tells us that Jesus was conceived on Kislev 24. Therefore his birth on the following Tishri 1 makes sense.

I hope we will be taught how these things actually happened when we get to Heaven, hopefully on Dec 21, 2011, the first day of Hanukkah. Agape

PS: I'm sorry, I didn't see the postscript until I pasted it in here.

> > Jesus ministry was a 3 to 3.5 year ministry. So if both the Bible and historical fact show Jesus was declared His Son, Messiah the Prince by God at His baptism 69 weeks of years after the first decree, then why did the 70 weeks stop there at 69? Or did it? It can be shown that there are 69.5 weeks, or 486.5 ecllesiastical years (by the Hebrew Lunar year average of 364 days divisible by 7) from the first decree until the Crucifixion/Ressurrection.

Yes, there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. My interpretations are in parentheses.

Dan 9:25-27 says, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (69 weeks): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks (i.e., after the total of 69 weeks) shall Messiah (Jesus) be cut off (killed, crucified), but not for himself (for us): and THE PEOPLE (the Romans) of the prince (the Roman False Prophet) that SHALL come (in the future Great Tribulation) shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary" (the Temple, in 70 AD); (HERE IS THE BREAK)

"and THE END thereof (i.e., AT THE END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION) shall be with a flood (an overflowing tsunami caused by the asteroid of Rev 8:8 impacting the Mediterranean Sea), and unto the end of the war (the Gog and Magog war of Eze 38) desolations are determined. 27 And he (the False Prophet) shall confirm (or strengthen) the covenant with many (probably the UN) for one week (of years, 7 years): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (because he will sit in the Temple as if he is God), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he (the False Prophet) shall make it (the Temple) desolate, even until the consummation (God's Wrath, when the first asteroid hits the Mediterranean Sea and Satan's asteroid Wormwood obliterates Babylon near the Euphrates), and that determined (the asteroid Wormwood's impact) shall be poured upon the desolate" (or the desolator, the Satan-possessed False Prophet).

Isa 51:9 says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (i.e., the Son of God, Isa 51); awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut (lit., split) Rahab (Satan's planet, and formed the Asteroid Belt), and wounded the dragon (Satan)?"

Isa 22:16-18 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (the Lake of Fire at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (the asteroid Wormwood, Rev 8:11)? 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 HE WILL SURELY VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Babylon near the Euphrates): there shalt thou die (i.e., when he will be tossed into the Lake of Fire), and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house."

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