Pro and Con 1675

Posted 12-20-2012


GOOD NEWS! BESIDES BELIEVING IT HIMSELF, THE ORTHODOX RABBI KADURI, TAUGHT HIS
STUDENTS IN THE NAHALAT YITZHAK YESHIVA THAT YEHOSHUA, YESHUA, WAS THE MESSIAH

"Rabbi Kaduri's thoughts were centered on the coming of the Messiah, during his final years on Earth. He passed on in January of 2006. Before leaving us, though, he apparently left two hints about the Messiah (Mashiach.) First, that He would appear after the death of Ariel Sharon. Next, that the Messiah's name is Yehoshua, Yeshua, Yahusha...you got it, the one that most English speaking moderns call Jesus."
http://www.roadturn.com/rabbi-kaduri-ariel-sharon-and-jesus-yeshua-2/

Here are videos of a couple of his students who believe that Yeshua was the Messiah.
http://www.messiahofisraelministries.org/

One video is of a man who realized that Yeshua was the Messiah when he read Psa 2:7.

Psa 2:7 says, "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Act_13:33 says, "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."

Heb_1:5 says, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

Heb_5:5 says, "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."

Pro_30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name (YHWH), and what is his son's name (YESHUA), if thou canst tell?"

"Jews coming to Jesus (Yeshua) in Israel!"
Wednesday, December 12, 2012 12:03
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/jews-coming-to-jesus-yeshua-in-israel-2512978.html Evangelist Zev Porat with a student of Rabbi Kaduri who is a new beliver Yeshua.

http://www.roadturn.com/rabbi-kaduri-ariel-sharon-and-jesus-yeshua-2/
David Kaduri confirmed, however, that in his last year, his father had talked and dreamed almost exclusively about the Messiah and his coming. "My father has met the Messiah in a vision," he said, "and told us that he would come soon."

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, "Re: wise and foolish virgins...rapture at sixth seal not Rev. 4...
seals are not punishments but seven "loving" interventions by our Lord and Savior"

I can see from reading your post http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2012/marilyna1217-1.htm that you dedicated a lot of time and study into writing it. You shared so much with us. For one your age (84 years young) to type all night long as you described is a real sacrifice for you and such a blessing for us. Thank you for your dedication to your study of God's Holy Word and the time and effort that you put into this article and the others you have written.

For anyone out there that may be reading this, Marilyn and I have been exchanging our views (several posts back and forth) on the identity of the antichrist, where he comes form, the rapture of the church, how many raptures there are, where Marilyn believes heaven is and a few other things. Marilyn and I seem to have some loving disagreements as to when the rapture happens, how many raptures, which group of kings the antichrist comes out of, the mystery of the wise and foolish virgins, the understanding of the new song sung in Rev.5, and other things.

Marilyn believes that the rapture happens in Rev.4 before any seals are opened. She believes that the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25 represent two different raptures of the gentiles happening at two different times. She believes that we are raptured in Rev.4 due to a verse that shows up in Rev.5 concerning people from every tribe, tongue and nation being mentioned there and the next verse which speaks of the redeemed being kings and priests that will reign on the earth. And she doesn't believe that the rapture could happen later at the sixth seal because that would put the seals out of order in their opening. All these beliefs that Marilyn has are also shared by millions of other bible and prophecy followers so she is in good company...or is she?

I have a completely different perspective on all of these views that I believe makes sense and clears up a lot of muddy water concerning these topics.

Lets start with the five wise and five foolish virgins spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 25...

These wise or foolish virgins are not referring to we the "gentiles" at all. Jesus in Matthew 25 was speaking to Jews and about Jews in this passage of the wise and foolish virgins. The gentile church hadn't even been established yet when Jesus had this discussion among Jews. It has nothing to do with we gentiles but what happens to the Jews in the latter times. So this in my mind eliminates any two rapture scenarios concerning the gentiles.

And to explain the whole rapture scenario and why it doesn't happen in Rev.4 and to explain what our loving God, our Sheppard / Intercessor has done for us in the 20 centuries since John was called to heaven to witness the events of these past 20 centuries I will copy below an article I wrote last spring to Doves.

The seven seals that are opened by Jesus one by one... are not judgments... as most believe, but are or were interventions for the benefit of Jesus' church throughout the last 2000+ years. The seven seal openings do not all happen in the latter end time years as most believe but have been going on throughout the past 2000+ years. Let me explain my beliefs...

John the apostle who we call John the revelator was (in the spirit) taken to heaven from an island where he was imprisoned in approximately 90AD.
While in heaven John witnessed a live "play" or a "viewing" or a "movie" if you will of the history of Christ's church from its inception to its conclusion as if he had been present the whole 2000+ years. John chronicled this viewing into the last book of the bible called the "Book of Revelation" or better termed the Book of Revelations (plural) because he was shown multiple revelations spanning multiple centuries.

When we read Rev.5 we see that an angel proclaimed that no one in heaven...on earth... or under the earth was found worthy to open the seven seals and read the scroll that described events that were to happen during the 2000+ years from the start of John's vision in 90AD until the opening of the last seal.

This made John the Revelator extremely sad.

Rev.5:4 says that John "wept much" that no one was found worthy to open the seals or read the text of the scroll. If these seals were judgments as most believe then why would John be so distraught and upset that no one could be found to dispense the judgments of them? It doesn't make any sense!!

There were lots of Satan's troops that were in heaven... on the earth... and imprisoned under the earth that could dispense judgments....if the seals were indeed judgments. But they were not judgments...they were interventions... and there had to be someone holy and worthy to be qualified to intervene and literally change history.

One can only believe that John was extremely exuberant when Jesus the sacrificial lamb stepped forward in the throne room of heaven and took the scroll from God the Father who sat on the throne. (This could have happened as early as 90AD) This resulted in an joyous outburst by the witnesses of this event that could probably be heard throughout the cosmos. The four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before Jesus and broke out in song singing...

"You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For you were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

Then millions of angels proclaimed with a loud voice...

"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"

And to make the joyous cosmic outburst complete, every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea proclaimed...

"Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever."

Now....do you really believe that all these witnesses of this event would be this excited if the seven seals and the scroll contained horrible judgments like what most people portray in the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"? Definitely not...

But the witnesses of this event in the throne room of heaven were beside themselves with joy and extremely elated that someone was found worthy to intervene on behalf of Christ's fledgling church that He started while on earth. A church that would be under constant attack by the usurper of this earth.... Satan.

Only Jesus was found worthy to intervene on His church's behalf... from John's vision in 90AD until the present time. And it was Jesus' direct interventions by opening of the seven seals that has saved His church from eradication during these 2000+ years. He intervened for us during this 2000 year period as He intervened for His chosen people the Jews during the Old Testament days.

So don't look for the four horsemen to ride any time soon...these first four seals have already been opened and I believe the fifth has been opened as well.

Let's look at the first four seals to see when Jesus intervened on our behalf from 90AD until the present.

Seal 1.....And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. There was a time in the last 2000 years that Satan was winning and Christ's church was in jeopardy of being eradicated but Jesus intervened at the first seal. In the Middle Ages the Roman Catholic Church under the Vatican and the papal popes murdered untold millions of true Christians and Jews that would not bow to the demonic authority of Rome. (Satan was winning the battle)This went on for centuries until Jesus intervened by opening the first seal and allowing Napoleon Bonaparte to conquer Europe and put an end to the power of the papal states... and then the slaughter ended. And yes, Napoleon was famous for riding a white horse. He was the conqueror of Europe (crown) and was a great military man (bow).

Seal 2....And another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword. There was another time in the last 2000 years that Christ's church, the Jews and the whole earth was in jeopardy of being destroyed. Again I believe that Jesus intervened and oversaw the happenings of this period (this seal) to insure the survival of the Jews, His Church and the earth in general. The period I speak of is World War II. (Satan was winning again) Germany under the demonic Nazis were hell bent on the eradication of the Jews and true Christians. They rolled over Europe and North Africa like a plague. They formed a pact with Japan to conquer the entire world and in the process started a world war and took peace from the earth. The German's were on the verge of perfecting the first nuclear bomb (great sword) which would have given the planet to Satan. But Jesus was there to oversee this period, this second seal, to prevent this from occurring. I believe He delayed Germany and advanced America with the building of the hydrogen bomb which again saved the Jews, the true Christians and the world from Satan's control. Remember....we do not fight flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. So we are badly outnumbered and periodically Jesus has to intervene on our behalf or the bad guys would win....hence seal two.

Seal 3....So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine. I believe this seal speaks to the economic factors of the planet. If you are like me you can't understand how the whole deck of economic cards has not completely fallen. Almost every country on the planet is way way way beyond bankrupt. The greed and outright monetary stealing (lawlessness) that is going on with no consequences is unbelievable. Satan is very pleased. What is preventing the complete economic collapse resulting in chaos and anarchy? I believe Jesus is, through His intervention with the third seal. Why? maybe because the fullness of the church is not complete. It doesn't matter how broke the planet is, people still just want to party..party..party. Hence...do not harm the oil and the wine.

Seal 4...So I looked and behold, a pale horse. And the name who sat on him was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death and by the beasts of the earth. This is an easy one. This seal speaks of Islam "the religion of Death". A fourth of the world's population and a fourth of the land mass is controlled by Islam. In the lands under their control they kill, starve and butcher anyone they choose who will not join their Death cult. They believe if they die as a martyr for Allah that they will go to paradise but what awaits them and follows them is Hades. We saw the Islamic pale green horse ride on worldwide TV during the riots in Cairo. Satan has the Muslims worked up into a demonic frenzy. They are willing to commit mass suicide around the planet to eradicate the Jews, the Christians and anyone else who won't bow to their demonic religion. I believe it is only because Jesus has once again intervened on our behalf with this fourth seal that worldwide butchery on a massive scale does not break out. Again I believe Jesus has intervened because the time in not yet right and the fullness of His church is not yet complete. (Rev.6:11...was completed)

Seal 5....I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then a white robe was given to them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Have you ever heard the biblical expression---absent from the body, present with the Lord? Well if you die "in Christ", meaning that during your life you made a conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ and the bloody sacrifice He made on your behalf on the cross then you are His for eternity. So when you die, not your physical body but your soul goes immediately to Him (present with the Lord) but the consciousness of your soul is asleep. Now from Christ's sacrifice on the cross to the present, there are untold millions of people that have accepted Him and untold millions who were viciously martyred for Him.(for example--millions of true Christians and Jews were martyred by the Catholic Church in the Middle ages) The souls of all those people have been present with the Lord but asleep since their deaths. 1 Thess.4:13-18 explains this...

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

So the souls of these millions and millions of people who have been asleep some from 2000 years ago ,some from two moments ago, are awaken from their sleep as Jesus opens the fifth seal. A lot of them are very angry because they were violently killed for their belief in Jesus throughout the ages and are crying out to Him. They want to know how long it will be before Jesus judges those on earth who killed them. Jesus gives them all white robes and tells them to rest, and that they will have to wait "a little while longer" until the number of His believers is complete. Obviously there is a total accumulated number of fellow servants, a human goal if you will, a preconceived quantity of believers that has to be reached before the Rapture of the church will happen.(not my words but the Lords...Rev.6:11)

We on earth will not know when this total quantity of believers has been reached or when this fifth seal has been opened in heaven but it appears that the first four seals have been opened and the believers in Christ are being added to this total at a rapid rate. Christians are dying and being martyred around the world at an accelerated rate whether it be in Sudan, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesian or most any Muslim country there is.

When this total number has been reached Jesus will open the sixth seal. This will be His greatest seal intervention on behalf of His church, His complete removal (rapture) of it from the planet to protect us from His great wrath that immediately starts as we are going up.

At the sixth seal...
There will be a world wide terrible earthquake, at that same time the rapture of the church will happen where the dead in Christ (those who were asleep) and the alive in Christ will be instantaneously gathered to Him in the clouds. This Rapture "process" and the great worldwide earthquake and I suspect multiple volcanoes will cause the sun to turn black, the moon red, and our sky (our heavenly view looking upward) to roll up like a scroll. Somewhere in this process when the sky is rolled up and open--maybe open to another dimension, God will cast Satan and his fallen angels to earth like "late over-ripe figs from a fig tree in a mighty wind". And then as per Rev.6:17 in the sixth seal, Jesus proclaims that the great day of His wrath has come. But He kept His promise that His believers would escape this wrath because still in the sixth seal before the opening of the seventh we all show up in heaven meaning that we were raptured up as Satan's crew were cast down. A great multitude (the raptured saints) which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

P.S. Some of you that have read this all the way to the end will have questions like...I thought we were raptured in Rev.4 and are represented by the 24 elders?

Do you really think that an event as monumental as the rapture of the church would not get any "biblical press coverage"? What I mean is, if an event of this stature happened in Rev.4 there should be many verses describing such a monumental event...and there are not. But when the event does happen at the opening of the sixth seal the "biblical press coverage" is there with millions of us showing up in heaven as per Rev.7:9-17.

The 24 elders I believe are some of the resurrected saints from the Old Testament era that Jesus took to heaven with Him in His resurrection.

Marilyn, I hope I answered all the questions you posed to me from your last article in my text above.

Also I read with interest your beliefs about Saturn being the throne of Our Lord.

Hope you have caught up on your rest after staying up all night writing your article. You appear to be an amazing woman for 84 years young. May the Lord continue to bless you with good health and may you still be here and in the front row when the great trumpet blows to take us home.

I don't know how much more writing I am going to do in the near future for my wife and I are leaving this week from upstate New York to spend Christmas with relatives in North Carolina. Then on to Florida to spend several winter months in its warmth. Not sure about an internet connection in Florida. I'll have to work something out so I can keep tract of you and the rest of the Dove family.

Seasons blessings to all... especially you Marilyn...John B

PS...It would be awesome if our travel plans were interrupted by a great trumpet, a great shout and a great earthquake and we got to fly "Redeemed Airlines"......straight up.

MY REPLY

> > I have a completely different perspective on all of these views that I believe makes sense and clears up a lot of muddy water concerning these topics.

> > Lets start with the five wise and five foolish virgins spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 25.......

> > These wise or foolish virgins are not referring to we the "gentiles" at all. Jesus in Matthew 25 was speaking to Jews and about Jews in this passage of the wise and foolish virgins. The gentile church hadn't even been established yet when Jesus had this discussion among Jews. It has nothing to do with we gentiles but what happens to the Jews in the latter times. So this in my mind eliminates any two rapture scenarios concerning the gentiles.

I think the wise and foolish virgins apply to both Gentiles and Jews. The wise virgins are in the Philadelphian Church group. The foolish virgins are in the Laodicean group.

The wise and foolish virgins are not the whole story of the two Raptures though. In The Revelation of Jesus Christ at the First-Trump Rapture, the seven-sealed book has not yet been given to Christ. At the Last-Trump Rapture, the sixth seal has already been broken. There have to be two raptures. The first one is for the Philadelphian church.

Rev 3:8 says, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."

John is part of the Philadelphian church. When he is caught up, the rest of the Philadelphian church is caught up.

Rev 4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture).

The seven-sealed book is given to Christ AFTER the First-Trump Rapture (Rev 4:1; I Thess 4:16,17). These are made incorruptible, but not yet immortal.

The sixth seal is broken BEFORE the Last-Trump Rapture takes place (Rev 6:12,17; 7:14; I Cor 15:51-54). All the saints of both rapture groups are made immortal at the same time.

In Joh_10:16, Jesus said, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Psa 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament (i.e., expanse of space) sheweth his handiwork."

In the Gospel in the Stars, there are two sheepfolds. After the second group are gathered, they will become one fold.

Today, because of a linguistic mix-up, the sheepfolds are called Ursa Major and Ursa Minor. The big dipper is seen in Ursa Major. Ursa Major was shown in most ancient star charts as the Greater Sheepfold. Ursa Minor was shown as the Lesser Sheepfold. The Lesser Sheepfold represents those caught up in the First-Trump Rapture. The Greater Sheepfold represent those caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture.

Ursa Major, Ursa Minor and Argo (the ship) are decans of Cancer, the crab. Cancer is the holding place of the occupants of the decans.

God named the stars. Psa_147:4 says, "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names."

The ship Argo, which has the face of Jesus on it, has it's sails, Vela, reefed. It is backing into the harbor. In Argo, the brightest star is Canopus. It means the possession of Him who cometh. We are aboard, i.e., in Jesus, and almost home.

In Cancer, the brightest star is Tegmine. It means holding. Another star is Acubene, the sheltering or hiding place. Another star is called Ma'alaph. It means assembled thousands. Klaria means cattle-folds.

In Ursa Minor, the lesser sheepfold, the brightest star is Dubheh. It means a herd. Dober means a fold.

In Ursa Major, the brightest star is Dubhe. It means a flock. Al Kaid means the assembled.

The Old Testament was given to the Jews. The New Testament was given to the Jews. Yet, in Joh_5:39, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." He did not say anything about Matthew not being for the Gentiles.

Rom_15:4 says, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

2Ti_3:16 says, "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

The unwise believers have a portion of the Tribulation with the unbelievers. Luk 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (i.e., the unwise believer, the evil servant, the Laodicean) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (i.e., cut him off), and will appoint him HIS PORTION (i.e., of the Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

Mat 24:48-51 agrees. It says, "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him HIS PORTION with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat 22:10-14 says, "So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For MANY (i.e., all believers) ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN."

There has to be another Rapture for those believers that are cut off at the time of the First-Trump Rapture. The First-Trump Rapture comes before the 7-sealed book is given to Christ. The Last-Trump Rapture comes after the sixth seal is broken.

In the Preview of Rapture, Rev 1:9-11 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos (meaning mortal), for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last".

Rev 4:1,2 says, " After this I (John, an apostle, a member of the Philadelphian church) looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture). 2 And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Giving the seven-sealed book to Christ in Rev. 5:7 precedes the breaking of the first seal in Rev. 6.

Before the ten kings receive their kingdoms, the First-Trump Rapture has taken place. Those saints are already with Christ. Rev 17:12-14 says, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast (i.e., the Satan-possessed False Prophet). 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL."

In Mat 24:31, the first Rapture has already taken place. His "elect" (believers, both Gentiles and Jews) are gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other. It says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other"

At that same time, the Tribulation saints are gathered from the Earth. Mar 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

The passage in Matthew mentioned "a great sound of a trumpet". Num 10:1-4 helps us understand about the sound of trumpets. It says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. 10:3 And when they shall blow with them (i.e., both), all the assembly (i.e., those of the First-Trump Rapture and those of the Last-Trump Rapture) shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture), then the princes (i.e., the elders), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

The elders are seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:4. It says, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.” Twelve of the 24 elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel. The other twelve are the 12 apostles of Israel.

At the time of the Last-Trump Rapture, the church saints, both Jew and Gentile, are already in Heaven. If there are "firstborn", there are likely to be lastborn. The firstborn are called in Rev 4:1, before the 7-sealed book is given to Christ. The lastborn are called in Rev 7. They are called after the 6th seal is broken.

Heb. 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".

FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE: SAINTS BECOME INCORRUPTIBLE, BUT ARE NOT YET ACTUALLY IMMORTAL

1Th 4:13-18 says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (i.e., believers), concerning them which are ASLEEP (koimao, to be asleep or dead), that ye sorrow not, even as others (unbelievers) which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (phthano, precede) them which are asleep (koimao, to be asleep or dead). 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD (i.e., the first one): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2Co 5:1-10 says, "For we know that if our earthly house (oikia residence, abode) of this tabernacle (skenos, temporary residence, the human body) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house (oikia, residence, abode, i.e., a celestial body) not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the second Rapture.

THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE AWAKE. 1Co 15:40 says, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." What died was the terrestrial body, not the celestial body. It was taken to Heaven.

My husband Ed died Dec. 27, 2011 when 87 years old. I wondered if he was awake or asleep. The Lord allowed him to visit me in his celestial body on April 2, 2012.

I now know that Ed is awake. He can walk, talk, visit relatives and play the piano. Dressed in what looked like a thin but opaque black silk suit, he walked into our bedroom at a fast pace with an ear to ear smile on his face. He walked up between the bed and dresser and stood near my head. I was lounging on the bed with several pillows under my head to watch TV, but I hadn't yet turned on the TV.

I asked him, "Are you 30 or 33?" He said, "33," and he looked it. "Can we be together forever?" He said, "Yes." That is what I desperately needed to know. "Are there female angels in Heaven? He said, "Yes." The Bible only mentions angels in the masculine gender. "Have you gotten with your family?" He said, "Yes." Then others in Heaven are awake. "Have you gotten with my family?" He said, "Yes." So, they too are awake. "Do you have a piano?" He said, "Yes" and walked through the wall.

THE NEW SONG. The saints are AWAKE and joyful in heaven. They sing a NEW SONG. Psa 149:1 says, "Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a NEW SONG, and his praise in the congregation of saints." Verse 5 says, "Let the saints be JOYFUL in glory: let them SING aloud upon their beds."

Where in The Revelation of Jesus Christ do saints sing this NEW SONG?

Rev_5:9 says of the FIRST GROUP of saints that arrive in Heaven, "And they (i.e., all of them) sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

Rev_14:3 says of the SECOND GROUP of saints that arrive in Heaven, "And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: AND NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, which were redeemed from the earth."

Rev 7:9 says of the SECOND GROUP, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne". These do not get to sing the new song.

ALL the saints raptured in the FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE sing the NEW SONG. Only the 144,000 can sing the NEW SONG in the LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE. This proves that there are two Raptures.

THE TIME OF BOTH RAPTURES. The First-Trump Rapture of Rev. 1:9 and 4:1 is before the first seal is broken in Rev 6:1. The time of the Last-Trump Rapture is when the sixth seal is broken on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev 6:17, 7:14), which ends the Tribulation.

LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE

THERE CAN’T BE A LAST UNLESS THERE IS A FIRST, AND ALL SAINTS OF BOTH RAPTURES ARE MADE IMMORTAL AT THE TIME OF THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE.

In 1Co 15:51-54, Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE (including Paul) shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (i.e., all the saints from both Raptures, shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption (i.e., at either Rapture), and this mortal must put on immortality (i.e., only after the last Rapture). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

> > seals are not punishments but seven "loving" interventions by our Lord and Savior

Oh, but the seals are deadly.
In the 1st, the Antichrist is given power to conquer.
In the 2nd, peace is taken from the Earth.
In the 3rd, food is sky high.
In the 4th, Death and Hell kill with the sword, hunger, and beasts of the Earth.
In the 5th, the souls of them that were slain for the word of God cried, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" In the 6th, Rev. 6:12-17 says, "there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Wow! I did not turn on Bold type or red letters. And I did not turn them off to start this line. I think the Lord is speaking to you directly in those lines. I will leave them as is. They speak for themselves.

Out of the 7th seal come the 7 trumpet judgments.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

This silence is on Earth too. I think it is reverence toward Christ as he is seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Hab_2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him."

Rev 11:15f says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."


It did it again. I didn't turn on the red color, and I didn't turn it off.

The 24 elders were caught up in the first Rapture.

Rev 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

The Lord is paying attention to what we are saying.

> > The seven seal openings do not all happen in the latter end time years as most believe but have been going on throughout the past 2000+ years.

Rev 1:1 gives us the title of this miracle play. It is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass". It is written to us, when the First-Trump Rapture is near.

Rev 1:3 says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND."

Rev 22:10 says, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the TIME IS AT HAND."

Rev 22:20 says, "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen." Amen means so be it. Jesus comes quickly at the first Rapture. Rev_3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Rev 1:1 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., the things before the first Rapture), and the things which are (i.e., at the time of the first Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER" (i.e., after the first Rapture).

Rev_4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER" (i.e., after the first Rapture). Everything after that takes place after the first Rapture.

Rev 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the First-Trump Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the First-Trump Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the First-Trump Rapture).

> > Now....do you really believe that all these witnesses of this event would be this excited if the seven seals and the scroll contained horrible judgments like what most people portray in the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"? Definitely not.......

Definitely yes. What they are excited about is that the first Rapture has just taken place. The Philadelphians are in Heaven. Every one of them sing the NEW SONG.

Rev. 5:8-10 says, "...saints. 9 And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (i.e., past tense) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth".

After the Last-Trump Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites can sing the new song.

Rev. 14:1-5 says, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

> > At the sixth seal........ There will be a world wide terrible earthquake, at that same time the rapture of the church will happen where the dead in Christ (those who were asleep) and the alive in Christ will be instantaneously gathered to Him in the clouds.

That will be the Last-Trump Rapture of the Tribulation saints (Rev. 7:14).

> > The 24 elders I believe are some of the resurrected saints from the Old Testament era that Jesus took to heaven with Him in His resurrection.

The 12 patriarchs are from the Old Testament era, but the 12 apostles are part of the church.

1Co_12:28 says, "And God hath set some IN THE CHURCH, FIRST APOSTLES, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

When the church is caught up, the apostles are caught up. John is one of them.

> > Not sure about an internet connection in Florida. I'll have to work something out so I can keep tract of you and the rest of the Dove family.

You might want to try the library.

> > Seasons blessings to all........ especially you Marilyn.......John B

Season's blessings to all, and thank you John Tng for making this possible.

> > PS.......It would be awesome if our travel plans were interrupted by a great trumpet, a great shout and a great earthquake and we got to fly "Redeemed Airlines"......straight up.

Yes. Awesome. I'm 84 now, and do not expect to ever be 85. When caught up to Heaven, I'll be 33. I'm looking forward to that. Agape

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