Pro and Con 1719

Posted 5-14-13

A GOOD SIGN: A PERFECT WEDDING RING ECLIPSE, MAY 10, 2013

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: the restored vision - help needed

I wonder if you can help me. I noticed a discussion of Frank Paine and Arthur Ware's books on your site. Mr. Paine claimes the Crucifixion of Christ occured on Friday, May 1st (Gentile Solar Calendar). However, Jewish calendars have usually given April 3rd as the date. I couldn't understand how the May 1st date was arrived at. Then I saw in Mr. Ware's book "The Restored Vison" (yellow paperback, page 261) that through the intercalation at the Exodus, Nisan 1 33AD becomes April 18th and Nisan 14 becomes May 1st (on the Jewish calendar). Jewish calendars I have seen report Nisan 14 33AD as April 3rd.

I have tried for weeks to figure this out. I wonder if you or someone you know could explain this to me (hopefully with a diagram). Thank You very much. (see file attached also)

MY REPLY

I don't remember those books, but I can help. I have studied the Crucifixion date for years, and am convinced that it was Thursday, Preparation of the Passover, April 6, 30 AD....

CALENDAR CONVERTERS AND THE THURSDAY DATE OF THE CRUCIFIXION

We can believe the Calendar Converters for the Julian date of the Crucifixion, THURSDAY, APRIL 6, 30 AD (Julian day 1732110.5, Mod Julian day -667890). The Gregorian date is useless in years before 1582.

MOST CALENDAR CONVERTER'S HEBREW DATE IS OFF BY TWO DAYS IN 30 AD (JULIAN)

The converters show that the Hebrew date for THURSDAY, April 6, 30 AD (Julian) is Nisan 15, 3790. THURSDAY IS CORRECT, BUT THE HEBREW DATE SHOULD BE NISAN 13, NOT 15. The current Hebrew Calendar is extrapolated backwards, and it is off by two days in the time of Christ. Why? because Hillel II added "POSTPONEMENTS" in 358 AD.

At that time, the "Jewish authorities decided to make public the calendar calculations which had been kept secret for generations, so that the calendar principles would not be lost. However, they did much more than that. They also devised and added NEW calendar rules never heard of in the time of the second Temple, or Christ's day -- they added several new laws called "postponements." These laws made it necessary to actually delay the Feast of Trumpets, called Rosh Hashanah, to keep Yom Kippur from falling on a Friday or a Sunday, and to keep Hoshana Rabbah -- the seventh day of the Feast of Tabernacles -- from falling on the weekly Sabbath."
(http://triumphpro.com/postponements-new-truth.htm)

Today, "There are therefore three days, SUNDAY, Wednesday and Friday, on which Rosh Hashanah can never fall. If the molad (i.e., new crescent moon) falls on one of these days, then Rosh Hashanah is nidcheh -- pushed off -- until the next day. In case the molad falls after noon on Shabbos, Tuesday or Thursday, Rosh Hashanah is pushed off one day because it is a molad zoken, and since that would put it on one of the three days on which it cannot fall, it is pushed off yet another day. In such a case we find that Rosh Hashanah has been POSTPONED TWO DAYS from the molad." (Understanding the Jewish Calendar, by Rabbi Nathan Bushwick, p.80-8).

PROOF THAT THE POSTPONEMENTS WERE NOT PART OF THE CALENDAR LAW PRIOR TO HILLEL II

Before Hillel II, the Hebrew New Year could fall on SUNDAY. It can't today. The postponements were not in the calendar law prior to 358 AD.

The Mishnah says, "A child can be circumcised on the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, or twelfth day, but never earlier and never later. How is this? The rule is that it shall be done on the eighth day; but if the child was born at twilight the child is circumcised on the ninth day; and if at twilight on the eve of Sabbath, the child is circumcised on the tenth day; if a Festival-day falls after the Sabbath the child is circumcised on the eleventh day; and if the two Festival-days of the New Year fall after the Sabbath [that is, on SUNDAY and Monday] the child is circumcised on the twelfth day" (Mishnah, Shabbath 19:5, Danby, page 117). (emphasis mine)

Before Hillel II, Av 9 could fall on FRIDAY, but it cannot today.

"Similarly, under the present Hebrew calendar, the 9th of Av never falls on a Friday. Yet, in the Mishnah, it relates, "They may not decree a public fast on the first day of a month or during [the Feast of] the Dedication or at Purim. But if they had begun they may not interrupt the fast. So Rabban Gamaliel. R. Meir said: Although Rabban Gamaliel has said, 'They may not interrupt the fast,' he admitted that they need not fast the whole day. So, too, with the Ninth of Av if it fell on the eve of a Sabbath [i.e., FRIDAY]" (The Mishnah, Taanith 2:10, Danby, p.197).

"Clearly, this evidence from the Mishnah itself indicates that the "postponements" of the modern Hebrew calendar, instituted by the Rabbinic Council in the days of Hillel II, did not apply to earlier times. They were a new innovation brought about in the fourth century of the present era!"
(http://triumphpro.com/postponements-new-truth.htm)

THIS TWO-DAY POSTPONEMENT CAUSES NISAN 13 TO BE LISTED AS NISAN 15 IN THE CALENDAR CONVERTERS

Here are the converters I checked. These all agree on this.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
www.midrash.org/calendar
www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/conv.htm
calendarhome.com/converter
jlm-ministries.com
www.rosettacalendar

THE LAST SUPPER, CRUCIFIXION, AND BURIAL WERE ALL ON THE PREPARATION DAY, THURSDAY, NISAN 13, 3790

The Preparation of the Saturday Sabbath would normally be on Friday, but that Friday happened to be Passover, an annual Sabbath, a high day when no servile work could be done. Therefore, all servile preparation for the three consecutive feasts had to be done on Thursday, Nisan 13.

Thursday, Nisan 13, Preparation Day, Last Supper, Crucifixion and Burial Friday, Nisan 14, Passover, high day, annual Sabbath Saturday, Nisan 15, Feast of Unleavened Bread, weekly Sabbath Sunday, Nisan 16, Firstfruits, Resurrection Day, Omer 1, counted "from the morrow(Sunday) after the sabbath" (Saturday, the Feast of Unleavened Bread).

Mat_26:17-21 says, "Now the first (protos, before, former, prior; from pro, fore, in front of, prior) day of the feast of unleavened bread (i.e., Nisan 13) the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the PASSOVER? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the PASSOVER at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the PASSOVER. 20 Now WHEN THE EVEN WAS COME (i.e., the beginning of Nisan 13), HE SAT DOWN WITH THE TWELVE. 21 And as they did eat (the Last Supper), he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me"...

Mat 26:26-28 says, "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

THE LAST SUPPER WAS CALLED THE PASSOVER, SO THE DISCIPLES PROBABLY PREPARED A LAMB

Mark 14:12 says, "And the first (protos, prior) day of unleavened bread, when they killed the PASSOVER (i.e., on Nisan 13), his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the PASSOVER? Mark 14:14 says, "And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the PASSOVER with my disciples?"
Mark 14:16 says, "And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the PASSOVER."

Mark 15:42-46 says, "And now when the even (i.e., 6 PM) was come, because IT WAS THE PREPARATION (Nisan 13), that is, the day before the Sabbath (Nisan 14, Passover, an annual Sabbath), 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he BOUGHT fine linen (on Nisan 13, Preparation Day, he couldn't buy on the Passover Sabbath High Day), and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre" (on Thursday, Nisan 13).

Lev 23:5.6 says, "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even (i.e., 6 PM on Nisan 13) is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread."

Nisan 13, 3790, Preparation of the Passover, ran from 6 PM Nisan 12 to 6 PM Nisan 13.
Nisan 14, 3790, Passover, ran from 6 PM Nisan 13 to 6 PM Nisan 14.
Nisan 15, 3790, Unleavened Bread, ran from 6 PM Nisan 14 to 6 PM Nisan 15.
Nisan 16, 3790, Firstfruits, ran from 6 PM Nisan 15 to 6 PM Nisan 16.

Luk_22:7,8 says, "Then came the day of unleavened bread (Nisan 13, Preparation Day), when the PASSOVER must be killed. 8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the PASSOVER, that we may eat."
Luk_22:11 says, "And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the PASSOVER with my disciples?"
Luk_22:13 says, "And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the PASSOVER."
Luk_22:15 says, "And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this PASSOVER with you BEFORE I suffer" (i.e., as Nisan 13 began).

Joh_13:1 says, "Now BEFORE (i.e., on Nisan 13) the feast of the PASSOVER (Nisan 14), when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end."
Joh_18:28 says, "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the PASSOVER" (i.e., on Nisan 14).

Joh_19:14 says, "And IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER (i.e., Nisan 13), and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

Lev 23:4-7 says, "These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even (i.e., as Friday, Nisan 14 begins at 6 PM on Thursday, Nisan 13 in 3790; 30 AD Julian) is the LORD'S PASSOVER. And on the fifteenth day (Saturday) of the same month is the FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day (Friday) ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein."

Lev 23:10,11 says, "When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the FIRSTFRUITS of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you ON THE MORROW (i.e., SUNDAY) AFTER THE SABBATH (Saturday, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, a HIGH DAY, AN ANNUAL SABBATH) the priest shall wave it".

JESUS WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH

Mt_12:40 says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

"In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day" (jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5007-day)

Thursday, DAY
Friday, night then DAY
Saturday, night then DAY
Sunday, night

ALL FOUR GOSPELS AGREE THAT THE CRUCIFIXION WAS ON THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, i.e., THURSDAY

Mat_27:62-64 says, "Now the next day (Friday, 'an high day', Passover), that followed THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION (Thursday), the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, AFTER THREE DAYS (i.e., after Thursday, Friday and Saturday) I will rise again (Sunday). 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day (Friday, Saturday and Sunday), lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead".

Mar_15:42 says, "And now when the even was come, because IT WAS THE PREPARATION (Thursday), that is, the day before the sabbath" (Friday, Passover, an annual Sabbath)."

Luk_23:54 says, "THAT DAY WAS THE PREPARATION (Thursday), and the sabbath (Friday, Passover) drew on."

Joh_19:14 says, "IT WAS THE PREPARATION (Thursday) OF THE PASSOVER (Friday), and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"
Joh_19:31 says, "The Jews therefore, because IT WAS THE PREPARATION (Thursday), that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day [Passover] was AN HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

WAS JESUS BURIED ON THURSDAY OR FRIDAY?

All four gospel accounts show that the burial was on Thursday, the Preparation Day for the Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits.

Mt 27:62-64 says, "Now the NEXT DAY (Friday), that FOLLOWED THE DAY OF THE PREPARATION (THURSDAY, Nisan 13), the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate. 63 Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days (Thursday, Friday, Saturday) I will rise again" (on Sunday). 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day (1. Friday, 2. Saturday, 3. Sunday), lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first."

Mark 14:16-18 says, "And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the PASSOVER. 17 And IN THE EVENING (i.e., the beginning of Nisan 13) he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat"...
Mark 15:42,43 says, "now when the EVEN (opsios, late afternoon or nightfall, i.e., between 3 and 6 PM) WAS COME, because IT WAS THE PREPARATION (THURSDAY), that is, the day BEFORE the sabbath, (Friday, Passover, a high day, an annual Sabbath). 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus."
Mark 15:46 says, "And he (Joseph of Arimathaea) bought fine linen (on Thursday, for he could not buy on the Passover Sabbath or the Saturday Sabbath), and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre".
Mark_16:1 says, "when the sabbath (Saturday) was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices (Sunday), that they might come and anoint him."

Luke 22:7-15 says, "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the PASSOVER must be killed (Nisan 13, Preparation Day, after they had thrown out the leaven the previous day). 8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the PASSOVER, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? 10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. 11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the PASSOVER with my disciples? 12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the PASSOVER. 14 And when the hour (6 PM, when Nisan 13 began) was come, HE SAT DOWN, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this PASSOVER with you before I suffer".

Luk 23:52-56 says, "This man (Joseph of Arimathaea) went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And THAT DAY WAS THE PREPARATION (THURSDAY), and the sabbath (Friday, Passover) drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments (i.e., on Thursday); and rested the sabbath day (Saturday) according to the COMMANDMENT." Luk_24:1 says, "Now upon the first day of the week (Sunday), very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared".

John 19:14 says, "And IT WAS THE PREPARATION (Thursday, Nisan 13) of the passover (Nisan 14), and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

John 19:31 says, "The Jews therefore, because IT WAS THE PREPARATION (Thursday), that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day [Friday, Passover] was an HIGH DAY [an annual Sabbath]) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
John 19:39-42 says, "And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore BECAUSE OF THE JEWS' PREPARATION DAY; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand."

ONE CALENDAR PROGRAM I FOUND THAT HAS IT RIGHT (www.torahcalendar.com)

"Nisan 13: Prepare for the Seder Meal
Fast of the Firstborn Soferim 21:3
Original Fast of Esther 4:16
5 Apr 30 C.E. sunset to 6 Apr 30 C.E. sunset
Day: 1,466,295
Nisan 14: Pesach, Passover, orig Fast of Esther 4:16, Apr 7, 30 CE
Nisan 15: Hag HaMatzah, Unleavened Bread, Israel Leaves Rameses, orig Fast of Esther, Apr 8
Nisan 16: Hag HaMatzah, First Fruits, The Omer Offering, 9 Apr 30 CE, Day: 1466,298"
(www.torahcalendar.com)

FAST OF ESTHER, NISAN 13, 14, and 15

Est 3:12-14 says, "Then were the king's scribes called on the THIRTEENTH DAY OF THE FIRST MONTH (Nisan 13,3790, Crucifixion Day April 6, 30 AD, Julian), and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors that were over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring. 13 And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey. 14 The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, that they should be ready against that day"....
Est 4:16 says, "Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and FAST YE FOR ME, AND NEITHER EAT NOR DRINK THREE DAYS (as on Crucifixion Day, Nisan 13, Passover, Nisan 14, and Unleavened Bread, Nisan 16), night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish."

FAST OF THE FIRSTBORN

"The Talmud says (Soferim 21:3) that Jewish firstborns fast "in commemoration of the miracle that they were saved from the Plague of the Firstborn. So for generations, on THE DAY PRIOR TO PASSOVER (i.e., NISAN 13), it is traditional for the first born to refrain from food during daylight hours." (http://www.ctionline.org/rebpage120405.html)

CONCLUSION

According to all four Gospels, Jesus was crucified on Thursday, April 6, 30 AD (Julian), the Eve of Passover. We cannot trust most of the Calendar Converters for the Hebrew date, but we can trust them for the Julian date. There is a way to use these converters. Add 2 days to the Hebrew date. If you want Nisan 14, put in Nisan 16, check for the correct day of the week in the Julian Calender.

www.torahcalendar.com is correct as it stands. It is the only one I have run across that is correct. In the beginning, I had to use astronomer's programs to figure the day Jesus was born correctly. The Moon had to be under Virgo's feet, as in Rev 12. Now, it is easier to use the Torah Calendar.

The Tractate "Sanhedrin" in the Babylonian Talmud agrees that Jesus was killed on the Eve of Passover.

It says, "ON THE EVE OF PESAH THEY HUNG JESHU [the Nazarene]. And the crier went forth before him forty days (saying), '[Jeshu the Nazarene] goeth forth to be stoned, because he hath practiced magic and deceived and led astray Israel. Anyone who knoweth aught in his favour, let him come and declare concerning him. And THEY HUNG HIM ON THE EVE OF PESAH."

That is correct. Jesus was crucified on the Eve of Passover, Nisan 13, the Preparation of the Passover.

THE STUMBLING BLOCKS

Besides most of the calendar programs being wrong that far back, the Jews now keep Nisan 15 as Passover, but the Lev 23:5,6 shows that Passover is Nisan 14, and Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15. Firstfruits is Nisan 16 and the Resurrection has to be on Sunday, the first day of the week.

Mt_12:40 can keep us on track. It says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Thursday, DAY
Friday, night then DAY
Saturday, night then DAY
Sunday, night

The year of the Crucifixion was 30 AD. Jesus was born on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 4, 5 BC. He started his ministry when he was 30 years old.

In 27 AD, on a Sabbath close to his birthday, he read from Isaiah 61 to announce the coming Jubilee Year, 28 AD.

In figuring the 15th year of Tiberius, we have to remember that he became Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD. The coin I posted above was minted in 13 and 14 AD. The head of Tiberius was on one side. The head of Augustus was on the other side. Tiberius was over Israel. Augustus busied himself elsewhere. Agape

A POST ON FIVE DOVES

"The "real meat" of the story is "sandwiched" between two prophetic pieces of bread.........rapture and rapture timing alert"

Doves, We are presently seeing bible prophecy being fulfilled before our very eyes as per Isaiah 17 and Isaiah 19.

Isaiah 17 speaks of the destruction of Damascus which is presently taking place be it brick by brick.

Isaiah 19 speaks of in-fighting among the Egyptian people themselves (Muslims persecuting Coptic Christians), Egypt being taken over by a cruel master (the Muslim Brotherhood under president Mursi) and the the lifeblood of the Egyptian people....the Nile River.......drying up and creating a terrible stench. All these prophetic earmarks are happening now and continuing.

These two chapters were just discussed in detail last week by JD Farag and his weekly prophecy update.
http://twelvebooks.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/prophecy-updates-may-5-and-may-7-by-jd-farag-and-gary-stearman-may-8-2013/

But what about the prophecy of Isaiah 18 which is sandwiched between Isaiah 17 and 19? Is this happening now or about to happen? I believe it is and it's the "real meat" or most important part of the story happening in the same chronological time frame as Isaiah 17 and 19 or.......now.

So what's so important about Isaiah 18 that should peak our interest at this time? Most people don't realize it...... but Isaiah 18 speaks of the rapture, the timing of the rapture and some events that happen near that timeframe.

Lets look at Isaiah 18 and how God details the events of this chapter. Lets start with verses 4, 5 and 6.

4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will look from my dwelling place like a clear heat in sunshine, [and] like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

So the Lord said to Isaiah--"I will take my rest". To me this means God's (Jesus') work is done. The sin debt He had to pay for our salvation was paid in full on the cross. He has spent approximately 2000 of our years preparing a place for His Church / Bride as He promised. The fullness of the Church or quantity of Gentile believers has been accomplished. He has Michael the archangel rounding up Satan and all his fallen angels which are about to be ousted from the heavens and banished to the earth.

So He (God) is resting and looking from a dwelling place. Could this particular dwelling place be the place He will be when the Rapture happens?

The next two phrases of the verse really blew me away when I understood them. What was God looking at when He looked from His dwelling place? "Like a clear heat in sunshine and like a cloud of dew in the heat of the harvest." In both instances it appears that God is talking about two things rising. We know from scripture that the dead in Christ will rise first and then the living in Christ will rise second.

Now look at the wording He used in the two phrases. "Like clear heat in the sunshine" That's like the heat you see rising from asphalt on a hot day, it appears to be coming up from the earth, it rises and then disappears. As will the dead in Christ--- that will rise first.

Now the second phrase "Like a cloud of dew in the heat of the harvest" Again we have something rising but this time the dew is already in the air, it just rises and then it disappears. As will "we" who have accepted Christ who are alive----we will just disappear.

5 For before the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away [and] cut down the branches.

This verse is amazing for it gives a double meaning. It gives a time frame for the rapture and tells the story of all the end time players at the same time.

When does the rapture happen time wise? When the bud is perfect and the sour grape is ripening in the flower. From a horticultural viewpoint, I would say late spring or early summer.

When will the rapture happen "players" wise? When the bud (Church / Bride) is perfect...... meaning when the predetermined number has been reached as per Rev.6. and when the sour grape is ripening in the flower. The Jewish people are the sour grapes.......they haven't sweetened to Jesus yet (their sour to Him) but they will because He says that they are "ripening" in the flower or will sweeten to Him at some point. And from scripture we know that this will be the case during the tribulation period.

The other players in this verse are the sprigs and the branches.

One Webster meaning for sprigs is young people. The verse says that God is going to cut off these sprigs and take them away. I believe this describes how He is going to remove (take away) all the young people from the planet that are below the age of accountability.

The other player in this verse is the branches. I believe these are the left behind people of the planet after the rapture and their fate is not good. We learn that they are cut down and gathered together. And their fate is described in the next verse.

6 They shall be left together for the mountain birds of prey, and to the beasts of the earth: and the birds of prey shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.

These branches, these left behind people will be left together for the mountain birds of prey to summer upon them and the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.

My interpretation of this is that at the same time Christ's Church is going up in the Rapture, Satan and his fallen angels (mountain birds of prey, i.e. UFO's) will be cast to earth and will prey upon the left behind people in the summer.

Then at some period later the beasts of the earth (demons entombed in the earth as per Rev. 9) will be released to prey upon the people left behind starting in the winter. Notice God brings summer into the picture first as if the rapture happens in the spring or early summer and Satan and his goons show up a few days or weeks later to dispense their evil and horror on these "branches".

With these verses and current world events in mind one could conclude that the rapture timeframe is near.

As near as green sour grapes forming in the flower........that's pretty near.

Blessings Doves.......John B

MY REPLY

> > One Webster meaning for sprigs is young people. The verse says that God is going to cut off these sprigs and take them away. I believe this describes how He is going to remove (take away) all the young people from the planet that are below the age of accountability.

> > "The "real meat" of the story is "sandwiched" between two prophetic pieces of bread.........rapture and rapture timing alert"

Thank you for your post. I sure like your sandwich and your definition for sprigs.

I didn't find that definition of "young people" for sprigs. That's helpful. It does apply to people. What I found was Strong's H2150 zalzal, tremulous, a twig, sprig, from H2151, zalal, to shake (as in the wind), which didn't help much.

However, I did think we were the sprigs that will be taken to be with the Lord at the First-Trump Rapture of Rev. 4:1 in early June. That is when the first grapes are ripening "afore the harvest". I did research to determine that.

I think all the underage children will be taken in the Last-Trump Rapture (Rev 6:17 and 7:14), probably on the Feast of Trumpets, Mon. Sept. 14, 2015, Tishri 1, 5776.

The words "take away" in Isa 18:5 are from "sur" in the Hebrew. It means DEPART, PLUCK AWAY, TAKE AWAY, WITHDRAW, REMOVE. That sure says Rapture to me.

Verse 3 says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (countries, i.e., the UN); and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye." That sounds like the trumpet in I Thess 4:13-18, the first Rapture. I Cor 15:51-54 is the last trump, i.e., the Last-Trump Rapture.

After the Rapture of the wise virgins, the foolish virgins will stay on Earth until the last Rapture. The first Rapture seems to be in the spring, because Isa 18:6 says "They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them."

Mat 24:20,21 says, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation".

Our Rapture should be in the spring and not on Saturday. I'm thinking Mid-Trib, Tue. June 4, 2013 seems most likely. We should go up when Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of Heaven. I'm hoping these dates are correct.

Beginning of the Tribulation, Dec 22, 2009
First-Trump Rapture, Mid-Trib, Tue. June 4, 2013
Last-Trump Rapture, Day of God's Wrath, Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5776, Mon. Sept. 14, 2015, day the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky
Second Advent, Nisan 1, 5776, Sat. April 9, 2016, first day of Jubilee, Regnal and Sacred years

The Jubilee has to be preceded by a Sabbatic Year, and 5775 is Sabbatic. That seems to lock in place the Jubilee and Second Advent.

There are 2300 days (Dan 8:13,14) from beginning of the Tribulation to the Second Advent, 1260 days for the first half of the Tribulation and 1040 for the shortened Great Tribulation.

Luk 12:46 The lord of that (unwise, i.e., foolish virgin) servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (i.e., the Great Tribulation) with the unbelievers."

Mt. 24:51 adds "shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat 22:11-14 says, "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Rev 17:14 says, "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL."

At the time of the Rapture, the 10 kings have not yet received their kingdoms. Rev 17:12 says, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

> > Isaiah 17 speaks of the destruction of Damascus which is presently taking place be it brick by brick.

I think that will come suddenly on the Day of God's Wrath. The mountain (asteroid) of Rev 8:8 will hit the NE Mediterranean Sea. There will be fire and tsunami to wipe Gog's army out of Israel's hair. Damascus will be ruined, but so will all the other cities. Every wall will fall.

Eze 38:18-23 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain (a tsunami), and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Of the 2nd Rapture, Joel 2:16 says, "Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet" (chuppah, canopy).

Of those gathered in the 2nd Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites can sing the NEW SONG. In the first Rapture all sing the NEW SONG (Rev 5:8-10).

Rev 5:8-10 says, "...saints. And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, on or over) the earth."

FIRST RAPTURE GROUP, WISE VIRGINS, DO NOT HAVE TO WASH THEIR ROBES

Rev 14:1-5 says, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

LAST RAPTURE GROUP, FOOLISH VIRGINS, HAVE TO WASH THEIR ROBES

Rev 7:14,15 says, "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." Agape

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