Pro and Con 1735

Posted 7-17-13

GOD'S GIFT TO MAN: SATURNIIDAE GIANT SILKWORM
MOTH AND SATURNIIDAE AUTOMERIS-ILLUSTRI.
THAT'S THE CUTEST WORM I EVER SAW

A POST ON FIVE DOVES

Bob Anderson (15 July 2013)
"The Future History of the Church Part 2"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/boba715.htm

MY REPLY

Thanks a million. This looks like the First-Trump Rapture could be on Tabernacles.

> > Jesus has gone on a long journey, and that at "full moon" He will come.
> > Now let's read verses 19 and 20 "'For the man is not at home; he has gone on a long journey, he has taken a bag of money with him and at full moon he will come."

> > And she goes on to deceive the guy. You see, she knows that the man is not at home; she knows that Jesus has gone on a long journey, and that at "full moon" He will come. What, again, is full moon? The time at which the moon is reflecting the maximum amount of light from the sun. The Bible will have to be understood at some point, that despite the darkness there will be a ray of sun. But for those who do not have oil in their lamps, it will then be too late to go out and buy it. We must get the oil now.

Here is Proverbs 7:19.20 in the KJV: "For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed."

The Hebrew word translated "appointed" in Strong's Concordance is kese, properly fullness or the full moon, that is, its festival: - (time) appointed.

The festival that is coming up at the full moon is Tabernacles, Tishri 15, 5774, Thu, Sept. 19, 2013.

A man who posted on Five Doves recently says that the Rapture will be on Thursday. This fits both the Feast of Trumpets and Tabernacles. If I remember it correctly, he was reading his Bible, went to sleep and woke up saying, "Why will the Rapture be on Thursday?"

Next spring, the Feast of Unleavened Bread will be Nisan 15, 5774, Tue. April 15, 2014. It is not on Thursday. Therefore, Tabernacles seems to fit perfectly.

Eighteen translations I found tell us that he will come on the full moon:

1. NLT: "He has taken a wallet full of money with him and won't return until later this month.* Footnote: Hebrew until the moon is full."

2. NIV: "He took his purse filled with money and will not be home till full moon."

3. ESV: "he took a bag of money with him; at full moon he will come home."

4. NASB: "He has taken a bag of money with him, At the full moon he will come home."

5. RSV: "For my husband is not at home; he has gone on a long journey; he took a bag of money with him; at full moon he will come home."

6. NRS: "For my husband is not at home; he has gone on a long journey. He took a bag of money with him; he will not come home until full moon."

7. ASV: "He hath taken a bag of money with him; He will come home at the full moon."

8. DBY: "he hath taken the money-bag with him, he will come home on the day of the full moon."

9. HNV: "He has taken a bag of money with him. He will come home at the full moon."

10. Holman Christian Standard Bible: "He took a bag of money with him and will come home at the time of the full moon."

11. Douay-Rheims Bible: "He took with him a bag of money: he will return home the day of the full moon."

12. English Revised Version: "He hath taken a bag of money with him; he will come home at the full moon."

13. World English Bible: "He has taken a bag of money with him. He will come home at the full moon.”

14. Lexham English Bible: "For there is no man in his home; he has gone on a {long journey}. The bag of money he took in his hand, for [on] the day of the full moon he will come home."

15. Bible in Basic English: "For the master of the house is away on a long journey: He has taken a bag of money with him; he is coming back at the full moon."

16. Common English Bible says, "For my husband isn't home; he's gone far away. He took a pouch of money with him; he won't come home till full moon."

17. NAS: "For my husband is not at home, He has gone on a long journey; He has taken a bag of money with him, At the full moon he will come home."

18. NRS: "For my husband is not at home; he has gone on a long journey. He took a bag of money with him; he will not come home until full moon." Agape

WHAT THE DAYS OF NOAH POINT TO IS NOT THE SAME AS WHAT THE DAYS OF LOT POINT TO

By Marilyn Agee

DAYS OF NOAH - FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE - MARRIAGE

FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE: BRIDE OF CHRIST CAUGHT UP TO HEAVEN AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH

Mat_24:37/38 says, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, MARRYING AND GIVING IN MARRIAGE, until the day that Noe entered into the ark

Luk_17:26,27 says, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man 27 They did eat, they drank, they MARRIED WIVES, THEY WERE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, until the day that Noe entered into the ark (Cheshvan 17), and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

1Th 4:16-18 says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Mat 24:31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (eklektos, favorite, chosen, elect) from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

Rev_17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

DAYS OF LOT - LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE - NO MARRIAGE, BUT INVITED TO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB

Luk_17:28,29 says, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The Bride of Christ will be caught up in the First-Trump Rapture. After Jesus is given his millennial Kingdom, the Marriage of the Lamb will take place.

Rev 19:6-9 says, "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Mar 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven."

The remainder of the Body of Christ will be caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture. They will be "called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Rev 19:9).

MY COMMENTS, RE: "THE 1000 YEAR MILLENNIUM"

"The 1000 Year Millennium" Shocking Facts about a Misunderstood Prophecy and your Eternal Destiny, by Steve Wohlberg (http://www.1000YearMillennium.com)

> > Revelation 20 doesn't say there will be peace on earth during the 1000 years.
> > Revelation 20 doesn't say Jesus Christ will rule during the 1000 years from the present city of Jerusalem.
> > These common doctrines are being taught worldwide but are not found in Revelation 20, the only place in God's Word that specifically mentions the 1000-year period."

THERE WILL BE PEACE, BECAUSE SATAN WILL NOT DECEIVE "THE NATIONS" DURING THE "THOUSAND YEARS"

Rev 20:2-7 says, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years".3 says, "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive THE NATIONS no more, till the THOUSAND YEARS should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison".

> > The last sentence in Revelation 19 describes birds feasting upon "the flesh of all men" (vs. 21).
> > Immediately following is Revelation 20, which depicts the binding of Satan so that he can "deceive the nations no more" during the 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). Why not? The answer's easy--there's nobody left alive on earth to deceive. Those in the first resurrection were "caught up" to be with Jesus, and the rest, those left behind, were slain."

What Bible says "the flesh of all men."? None of the Bibles on Blue Letter Bible say that.

Rev 19:21 (KJV) says, "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh".

Rev 19:21 NKJV says, "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 NLT says, "Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came from the mouth of the one riding the white horse. And the vultures all gorged themselves on the dead bodies."

Rev 19:21 NIV says, "The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."

Rev 19:21 ESV says, "And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 NASB says, "And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 RSV says, "And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 ASV says, "and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 YLT says, "and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which [sword] is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh."

Rev 19:21 DBY says, "and the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which goes out of his mouth; and all the birds were filled with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 WEB says, "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceedeth out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Rev 19:21 HNV says, "The rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse, the sword which came forth out of his mouth. All the birds were filled with their flesh."

> > "there's nobody left alive on earth to deceive. Those in the first resurrection were "caught up" to be with Jesus, and the rest, those left behind, were slain."

The following Bible verses show that there will be people on Earth during the thousand years of peace. It seems that Christ will sit on the Earthly throne at first, then David will sit on it, and Christ will sit on his heavenly throne. His kingdom will last forever.

Mat_5:34,35 says, "Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne". 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King."

Luk_1:32,33 says, "He (Jesus) shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Act 7:48,49 says, "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 HEAVEN IS MY THRONE, AND EARTH IS MY FOOTSTOOL: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"

Eze_43:7 says, "And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places."

1Ki_2:45 says, "the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever."

Zec 6:12,13 says, "And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH (i.e., Jesus); and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

However, Psa 72:7-11 says, "In his days shall the righteous flourish; and ABUNDANCE OF PEACE SO LONG AS THE MOON ENDURETH. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. 9 THEY THAT DWELL IN THE WILDERNESS SHALL BOW BEFORE HIM; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 11 Yea, ALL KINGS SHALL FALL DOWN BEFORE HIM: ALL NATIONS SHALL SERVE HIM."

Isa 24:19-23 says, "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, WHEN THE LORD OF HOSTS SHALL REIGN IN MOUNT ZION, AND IN JERUSALEM, and before his ancients gloriously."

Isa_9:6,7 says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of THE INCREASE OF HIS GOVERNMENT AND PEACE THERE SHALL BE NO END, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Isa 26:12 says, "LORD, thou wilt ordain PEACE for us".

Eze 34:23-25 says, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a COVENANT OF PEACE, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods."

Eze 37:25-27 says, "And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I WILL MAKE A COVENANT OF PEACE WITH THEM; IT SHALL BE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH THEM: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Hag_2:9 says, "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give PEACE, saith the LORD of hosts."

Zec_9:10 says, "And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak PEACE unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

> > In summary, Revelation 20:4-6 begins the 1000 years with the resurrection of the saints. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 teach that the resurrection of the saints, who are called "the dead in Christ," occurs when Jesus Christ returns. Thus it is the return of Jesus Christ, when His saints are resurrected, that marks the beginning of the Millennium.

I think 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 applies to the First-Trump Rapture (maybe on Tishri 1, 5774, Thu. Sept. 5, 2013), and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 applies to the Last-Trump Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets, Mon. Sept. 14, 2015. I think the Second Advent will be on Nisan 1, 5776, Sat. April 9, 2016, the anniversary of his Resurrection on April 9, 30 AD.

I also think Christ will be given his Millennial Kingdom on the Feast of Trumpets, Mon. September 14, 2015, the Last-Trump Rapture, the Day of God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord.

> > These verses teach that those not "caught up" when Christ returns will be destroyed, and the destruction will encompass all the earth, as it did during Noah's flood. Jesus Himself taught this. "The flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be" (Matthew 24:39).

Mat 24:39 (KJV) says, "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

> > 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 - When Jesus returns in flaming fire, the lost will be destroyed.

2Th 1:7-9 (KJV) says, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power".

> > Revelation 16:17-18 - At Armageddon, cities crumble around the world.

Rev 16:17,18 (KJV) says, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

> > Revelation 6:14; 16:20 - Every island sinks, and all the mountains disappear.

Rev 6:14 (KJV) says, "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES."

> > Jeremiah 4:23-26 - Planet Earth is totally devastated, with "no man" left alive.

Jer 4:23-27 (KJV) says, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; YET WILL I NOT MAKE A FULL END."

> > Jeremiah 25:30-33 - Those slain by the Lord lie dead, unburied, all around the world.

Jer 25:30-33 (KJV) says, "Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground."

ONE SIXTH OF GOG'S ARMY LIVES

Eze 39:1,2 (KJV) says, "Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2 And I will turn thee back, and LEAVE BUT THE SIXTH PART OF THEE, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel".

ISRAEL BURIES THE DEAD 7 MONTHS TO PURIFY THE LAND SO CHRIST CAN COME IN GLORY

Eze 39:11-13 (KJV) says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. 12 And SEVEN MONTHS SHALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL BE BURYING OF THEM, THAT THEY MAY CLEANSE THE LAND. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be GLORIFIED, saith the Lord GOD."

THOSE 7 MONTHS RUN FROM TISHRI 1 TO NISAN 1 IN A LEAP YEAR

AND THEN WE SKIP ALL THE WAY TO THE END OF THE THOUSAND YEARS

> > Revelation 19:17-18, 21 - The birds eat the flesh of every human being worldwide.

Rev 19:17-21 (KJV) says, "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and THE FLESH OF ALL MEN, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he DECEIVED THEM that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 AND THE REMNANT WERE SLAIN WITH THE SWORD OF HIM THAT SAT UPON THE HORSE, WHICH SWORD PROCEEDED OUT OF HIS MOUTH: AND ALL THE FOWLS WERE FILLED WITH THEIR FLESH."

> > The last sentence in Revelation 19 (VERSE 18 IN THE KJV) describes birds feasting upon "the flesh of all men". Immediately following is Revelation 20, which depicts the binding of Satan so that he can "deceive the nations no more" during the 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). Why not? The answer's easy--there's nobody left alive on earth to deceive. Those in the first resurrection were "caught up" to be with Jesus, and the rest, those left behind, were slain."

Rev 20:1-3 (KJV) says, "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and BOUND HIM A THOUSAND YEARS, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

There are a few on Earth during the l000 years, and Satan is in the bottomless pit so he can't deceive anyone on Earth.

The First Resurrection has 2 parts, the First-Trump Rapture (1Thess 4:16,17), probably on the Feast of Trumpets 2013, and the Last-Trump Rapture (I Cor. 15:51-54), probably on the Feast of Trumpets 2015.

PEOPLE LIVE IN THE CITIES OF ISRAEL DURING THE MILLENNIUM

Eze 39:9,10 says, "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: 10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD."

SOME LIVE AND REIGN WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS

Rev_20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: Church At Laodicia and Five Foolish Virgins

It seems that many readers and responders are perplexed about the relationship of Jesus to these two groups. I want to simply add some emphasis to what was spoken by our Lord at the conclusion of His warning to the Laodicians: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Rev 3:19) Of course, this applies to all Christians. It seems to me that the Lord has not denied salvation to these two groups, but only promised severe discipline toward them. YBIC

MY REPLY

I agree. All true-believer members of the Church are virgins, and they will either be caught up at the First-Trump Rapture or the Last-Trump Rapture. Because the Lord loves the Laodiceans, he warned them. It is easiest to see the split between the wise and foolish virgins, and the Philadelphians and Laodiceans. Agape

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: "Bill Griese (15 July 2013) "Regarding the 24 Elders"

The rewards to the Saints follow the Seventh Trumpet. Therefore, the 24 Elders crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the Bema Seat. This indicates they are not part of the Church, and eliminates them as proof of a Pre-Trib Revelation 4:1 Rapture. The Apostle John was the only one who went through the open door in Rev 4:1.

Rev 11:15-18 KJV "And the seventh angel sounded (Seventh Trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected these Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many. I believe they ascended with Him to Heaven and the 24 Elders are probably from this group. If not, then the 24 Elders are a priestly class of Angels.

Matt 27:50-53 KJV "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the (Old Testament) Saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." YBIC, Bill Griese

MY REPLY

> > The Apostle John was the only one who went through the open door in Rev 4:1.

Then when were the other 23 elders and the saints OUT OF EVERY NATION caught up to Heaven?

John is only one of the elders. There are 23 more.

Rev 4:4 says, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw FOUR AND TWENTY ELDERS sitting".

The saints include those out of every nation.

Rev 5:8,9 says, "...saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and NATION".

Rom 14:10 says, "we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ."

2Co 5:10 says, "For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

TWO RAPTURES, ONE AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, THE OTHER AS IN THE DAYS OF LOT

IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, IT RAINED WATER

Luk 17:26,27 says, "And as it was in the DAYS OF NOE, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the FLOOD came, and destroyed them all.

IN THE DAYS OF LOT, IT RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE

Luk 17:28-30 says, "Likewise also as it was in the DAYS OF LOT; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained FIRE AND BRIMSTONE from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED."

Mat 24:30,31 says, " And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED IN THE SKY AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND RAPTURE, NOT THE FIRST

Mar 13:26,27 says, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

Proverbs 7:19,20, (NASB) says, "He has taken a bag of money with him, At the full moon he will come home."

That full moon might be the one on the FEAST OF TABERNACLES, SEPT 19, 2013. If so, the First-Trump Rapture would take place on that day.

The Last-Trump Rapture will probably take place on the FEAST OF TRUMPETS, Sept 14, 2015. Agape

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