Pro and Con 1739

Posted 8-2-13

SATURN, FALSE COLOR SHOWS THERMAL HEAT EMMISSION

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: Bill Griese (30 July 2013) "Reply to Marilyn, Gino, Garry, KML (07/18) and Laurie (07/20)"

On July 20th, Laurie wrote: I had noticed along time ago that in Rev. 5:9 where it says "And they sang a new song saying...." The use of the word "us" would infer that these are raptured saints. But I also have a footnote in my King James Scofield Bible for Rev 5:9. It says "Most early N.T. mss. omit "us" in v. 9 and read "them" or "they" instead of "us" and "we" in v. 10" I don't know how a thing like that could get changed because it totally changes the picture, but it did. http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/laurie720.htm

The 24 Elders are Redeemed, but are not the Church

I agree with the excerpt above from what Laurie wrote. I believe that the 24 Elders are "Redeemed" Old Testament Saints, and not comprised of "the Church". When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected these Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many. I believe they ascended with Him to Heaven and the 24 Elders are from this group. I have fully moved to the Old Testament Saints view and away from the Angels view, so I would say that they are "Redeemed".

Prophetic Author Marvin Rosenthal writes in The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, page 254: "Many of the ancient Greek manuscripts and the consensus of contemporary scholarship favor the omission of the pronoun "us" in verse 9 (Rev 5:9), as in the Authorized Version, and change the translation of "And has made us unto our God a kingdom of priests, and we shall reign on the earth" to "And hast made them unto our God a kingdom of priests, and they shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10). With the latter translation, the elders are now understood to be praising God for redeeming the church, of which they are not a part." (End quote, Underlining added)

It's important to notice in Rev 5:8, that the Four Beasts (a.k.a. Living Creatures) along with the 24 Elders all sing a new song to the Lamb. The Four Beasts are obviously not men who have experienced redemption. The words "us" and "we" just aren't appropriate for the Four Beasts to sing. As indicated above, a majority of the English Bible Versions omit "us" in Rev 5:9 and use "them" instead of "us" and "they" instead of "we" in Rev 5:10. I use the KJV, but am not KJV only.

Rev 5:8-10 KJV "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Rev 5:9-10 ESV "And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

Rev 5:11-12 KJV "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

In Rev 5:11-12, the word "Saints" or an equivalent is conspicuously absent. Only many Angels, the Four Beasts, and the 24 Elders are mentioned in the heavenly scene.

However, in Rev 7:9 following the opening of the Sixth Seal (Rev 6:12-17), we see a "great multitude which no man could number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb." See the difference? I believe this is the Church following the Main (2nd) Rapture event which is called the "gathering together of the elect" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) where All of the dead in Christ are raised first, then All remaining living Believers are caught up together with them in the sky to be with the Lord. The Wrath of God follows this Rapture, starting with the opening of the Seventh Seal, and includes all of the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls, which all follow in numerical order.

At Christ's resurrection many which slept arose

Matt 27:50-53 KJV "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the (Old Testament) Saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Acts 6:7 KJV "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

The Old Testament Saints that arose included priests who went into the city and appeared to their Levitical Priest descendants causing many to believe. I believe the 24 Elders are from this group. The Lord told the 12 Apostles that they would sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt 19:28). This doesn't make them part of the 24 Elders before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Apostle John in Rev 4:4, saw 24 Elders sitting on 24 seats around God's throne, and he was not one of them.

Rev 4:4 KJV "And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I (John) saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

Rev 11:15-18 KJV "And the seventh angel sounded (Seventh Trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The rewards are given to the Saints following the Seventh Trumpet, not before the First Seal. Therefore, the 24 Elders Crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the rewards to the Saints. This indicates they are not part of the Church and eliminates their Crowns as proof of a Revelation 4:1 Rapture of the Church, as is commonly taught.

The First Rapture is for those who are ready

Rev 12:13-17 KJV "And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (the faithful remnant of Israel, who will not worship Antichrist) which brought forth the man [child] (Jesus). And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished (and protected by God) for a time, and times, and half a time (the final Three and One-half years), from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make War with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The remnant is Born-again Christians left in the Great Tribulation. This is the point that I believe the 1st Rapture event, the "Open Door"of Revelation chapters 2 & 3 occurs and is shortly after the Abomination of Desolation. The Western Church is most like the Laodicean Church, and the instructions to Watch and Repent and be ready must be followed to go through the "Open Door" to escape the persecution of the Satanically indwelt Antichrist and his minions. Satan and his Fallen Angels are not even cast out of Heaven until the beginning of the final Three and One-half years called the Great Tribulation. It's only at this point that the man who will be Antichrist is indwelt by Satan and actually becomes the Antichrist and there's the need to escape.

Rev 3:14-22 KJV "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth (into the Great Tribulation, because they are not watching or repenting). Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Luke 21:34-36 KJV "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always (repenting), that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." YBIC, Bill Griese

MY REPLY

It seems to me that you are trying to force scriptures to say what you want them to say.

> > On July 20th, Laurie wrote: I had noticed along time ago that in Rev. 5:9 where it says "And they sang a new song saying...." The use of the word "us" would infer that these are raptured saints. But I also have a footnote in my King James Scofield Bible for Rev 5:9. It says "Most early N.T. mss. omit "us" in v. 9 and read "them" or "they" instead of "us" and "we" in v. 10" I don't know how a thing like that could get changed because it totally changes the picture, but it did.

Maybe it doesn't totally change the picture. 2Ti_2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Let's do our best to rightly divide the word of truth.

That note is not in my KJV Scofield 1 Bible. I don't know who added it later. There were several on the panel that brought out Scofield 2, "THE NEW SCOFIELD REFERENCE BIBLE".

I am mainly sticking with KJV in eSword these days. That is the only Bible I have on this computer. I lost my other computer because I had too many Bibles on it. If I need something else, I go to Blue Letter Bible, etc. Besides that, I have several hard copies of Bibles, including the LXX, a Scofield 1 (mine), and a Scofield 2 (that was Ed's) for reference.

In spite of the note, here is Rev 5:8,9,10 in Scofield 2:

"...[incense] , which are the prayers of saints. And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the [scroll], and to open its seals; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God [a kingdom of] priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

Therefore, the panel did not all agree that those words should be changed. However, let's make the changes and see what it really says.

THE NOTE: "3(5:9) Most early N.T. mss. omit "us" in v. 9, and read "them" and "they" instead of "us" and "we" in v. 10."

APPLYING THAT NOTE, IT WOULD SAY: "...[incense] , which are the prayers of saints. And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the [scroll], and to open its seals; for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And HAST MADE THEM unto our God [a kingdom of] priests, and they shall reign on the earth."

The saints "sang a new song" to Jesus. To me, the new song said that Jesus is worthy to take the scroll and to open the seals, which he starts to do in the next chapter. The reason he is worthy is this: He "wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, 10 "And HAST MADE THEM (PAST TENSE) unto our God [a kingdom of] priests, and they shall reign on the earth."

That is still understandable. The Rapture has taken place because "HAST" is PAST TENSE. Jesus "HAST REDEEMED" them and "HAST MADE THEM" a kingdom of priests.

The only time they could have already gotten to Heaven was in Rev 4:1.

Rev. 4:1-4 (KJV in eSword) says, "After this I (John, one of the 12 apostles) looked, and, behold, A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (i.e., after the Rapture). 2 And immediately I was (ginomai, lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (Jesus) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (last stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (first stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the first and the last): and there was a rainbow (i.e., Saturn's rings) round about the throne (i.e., on Saturn), in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

In his miracle play, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Jesus cast John as both narrator and actor. Here, he is actually sitting on his throne as well as telling the story. The 24 elders are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. They will not sit on their thrones until after the First-Trump Rapture.

THE NEW SONG APPEARS TWICE IN "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST", IN 5:9 (FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE OF I THESS 4:13-8) AND 14:3 (LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE OF I COR 15:51-54)

LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE. Rev 14:1-5 says, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

So we can't mix them up, those caught up in the First-Trump Rapture, ALL sing the new song. In the Last-Trump Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites get to sing the new song.

Rev 7:9 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands". These do not get to sing the new song.

Psa 149:1 says, "Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints."

Psa 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

> > When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected these Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many.

That is what happened when Ed, who died at 87 on Dec 27, 2011, came to see me in his celestial body on April 2, 2012. I asked him if he was 30 or 33. He said, "33", so those O.T. saints probably were 33 too. That alone would have shocked their relatives and friends that day.

> > Marvin Rosenthal writes in The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church

I used to like to read what he wrote when he was with Friends of Israel, until he left when he got on his Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church kick. I disagree with him on that.

There are two Raptures. Both are Pre-Wrath, but the last one is on the Day of God's Wrath. No wonder the Lord wipes away their tears. They make it out of here by the skin of their teeth just before the asteroid Wormwood hits Earth. I want to be accounted worthy of being part of the first Rapture.

> > In Rev 5:11-12, the word "Saints" or an equivalent is conspicuously absent. Only many Angels, the Four Beasts, and the 24 Elders are mentioned in the heavenly scene.

Don't read verses 11 and 12 without reading 8-10.

Rev 5:8-12 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of SAINTS. 9 And THEY (THE SAINTS) sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, on or over) the earth. 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

> > The 24 Elders are Redeemed, but are not the Church
> > I agree with the excerpt above from what Laurie wrote. I believe that the 24 Elders are "Redeemed" Old Testament Saints, and not comprised of "the Church". When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected these Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many. I believe they ascended with Him to Heaven and the 24 Elders are from this group. I have fully moved to the Old Testament Saints view and away from the Angels view, so I would say that they are "Redeemed".

How many tribes of Israel are there?

Eze_47:13 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel".

Only 12 elders are of Israel.

How many apostles are there?

Mat_10:1,2,5 says, "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 says, "Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; ... 5 says, "These twelve Jesus sent forth".

Only 12 apostles are of the Church, including John

Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT IN THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

When does Jesus sit in the throne of his glory? At the First-Trump Rapture. When that happens, the 12 apostles shall "sit upon twelve thrones".

When "one trumpet" is blown

Num 10:1-4 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And IF THEY BLOW BUT WITH ONE TRUMPET, THEN THE PRINCES, WHICH ARE HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE."

When is the first trumpet blown? When the apostle John becomes "in the spirit" and sits on his throne.

Rev 4:1-4 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door (i.e., the open door was set before the Philadelphian CHURCH in Rev. 8:10) was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture). 2 And immediately I (John) was (ginomai, became) in the spirit: and, behold, A THRONE was set in heaven, and one (JESUS) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (last stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (first stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the first and the last): and there was a rainbow (i.e., Saturn's rings) round about the throne (i.e., on Saturn), in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders (i.e., 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel, including John, who is cast as actor and narrator) sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

> > However, in Rev 7:9 following the opening of the Sixth Seal (Rev 6:12-17), we see a "great multitude which no man could number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb." See the difference? I believe this is the Church following the Main (2nd) Rapture event which is called the "gathering together of the elect" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) where All of the dead in Christ are raised first, then All remaining living Believers are caught up together with them in the sky to be with the Lord. The Wrath of God follows this Rapture, starting with the opening of the Seventh Seal, and includes all of the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls, which all follow in numerical order.

There are two complete Raptures, not one Rapture split into two parts. The first Rapture includes the 24 elders and the Philadelphian church (Rev 3:8; 4:1-4). The last Rapture includes the 144,000 Israelites and a great multitude that no man can number (Rev 7:9,14).

> > The Old Testament Saints that arose included priests who went into the city and appeared to their Levitical Priest descendants causing many to believe. I believe the 24 Elders are from this group. The Lord told the 12 Apostles that they would sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt 19:28). This doesn't make them part of the 24 Elders before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Apostle John in Rev 4:4, saw 24 Elders sitting on 24 seats around God's throne, and he was not one of them.

John was one of the 24 elders. In Christ's miracle play "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", he cast John as both narrator and actor.

Rev 1:1,2 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

John introduced this miracle play, The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus is first revealed to those caught up in the first Rapture.

In Rev 1:3-5, he said, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand (i.e., the time of the first Rapture is 10 days future). 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness".

The time of this miracle play is 10 days before the Rapture. Rev 2:10 says, "ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

The Rapture is 10 days future. It is at hand in both the first and last chapters.

Rev 1:3 says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

Rev 22:10 says, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

Rev 1:19 shows us how Jesus organized his material. He said, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the first Rapture), and the things which are (i.e., at the time of the first Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the first Rapture).

Rev_4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (i.e., after the first Rapture).

As the play begins, Jesus introduces himself, saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

Then John introduces himself. He says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation (i.e., in the tribulation 10 days before the first Rapture, Rev 2:10), and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos (meaning mortal), for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:9).

Like our movie directors, Jesus started off with a Preview. In this Preview of coming events, in Rev 1:10,11, John said, "I was (ginomai, became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia" (which means muddy, i.e., on Earth).

After Jesus' monologue to the seven churches, the first trumpet sounded in Rev 4:1 and John was caught up to Heaven along with the other 23 elders. In Heaven, he described the throne scene right after the First-Trump Rapture.

Rev 4:1-4 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture). 2 And immediately I was (ginomai, became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

> > The rewards are given to the Saints following the Seventh Trumpet, not before the First Seal. Therefore, the 24 Elders Crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the rewards to the Saints. This indicates they are not part of the Church and eliminates their Crowns as proof of a Revelation 4:1 Rapture of the Church, as is commonly taught.

2Ti 4:1 says, "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO SHALL JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD AT HIS APPEARING AND HIS KINGDOM."

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me A CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH THE LORD, THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, SHALL GIVE ME AT THAT DAY: AND NOT TO ME ONLY, BUT UNTO ALL THEM ALSO THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING."

Jesus will appear to the Raptured saints at the First-Trump Rapture. We will rise up to meet him in the air.

1Pe_5:4 says, "And when the chief Shepherd shall APPEAR, ye shall receive a CROWN of glory that fadeth not away."

Rev_2:10 says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a CROWN of life."

1Th_4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

> > The remnant is Born-again Christians left in the Great Tribulation. This is the point that I believe the 1st Rapture event, the "Open Door"of Revelation chapters 2 & 3 occurs and is shortly after the Abomination of Desolation. The Western Church is most like the Laodicean Church, and the instructions to Watch and Repent and be ready must be followed to go through the "Open Door" to escape the persecution of the Satanically indwelt Antichrist and his minions. Satan and his Fallen Angels are not even cast out of Heaven until the beginning of the final Three and One-half years called the Great Tribulation. It's only at this point that the man who will be Antichrist is indwelt by Satan and actually becomes the Antichrist and there's the need to escape.

We may be at that point at Tabernacles, Thur. Sept. 19, 2013. Keep watching. They are saying, "Peace, peace; when there is no peace" right now (see Jer 6:14; 8:11). They had a meeting in this country this week. The next meeting is in 2 weeks. They have set a deadline of 9 months to finish the agreement.

Mid-Trib

Rev 12:7-10 says, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW IS COME SALVATION, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

When Satan and his angels are cast out, we will probably go up.

Isa 14:12-17 is talking about Satan. It says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"

Satan will go into the False Prophet, the second son of perdition. Judas Iscariot was the first.

Rev 17:8 says, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

The Great Tribulation will have started. Agape

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