Pro and Con 1742

Posted 8-6-13

THE GORGEOUS WEEPING CHERRY TREE FOUND BY ANNETTE
SHOWS US THAT GOD LOVES PRETTY THINGS

GARDEN OF EDEN TO BECOME IRAQI NATIONAL PARK

by Fred Pearce, 31 July 2013

THE "Garden of Eden" has been saved, even as chaos grows all around. Last week, amid a wave of bombings on the streets of Baghdad, Iraq's Council of Ministers found time to approve the creation of the country's first national park - the centrepiece of a remarkable restoration of the Mesopotamian marshes in the south of the country.

IS SATAN'S ASTEROID WORMWOOD AMONG THIS GROUP OF THREATENING ASTEROIDS?

"RUSSIAN METEOR MAY HAVE GANGMATES IN TOW"

"Orbital estimates pinpoint 20 asteroids on similar paths to rock that exploded near Chelyabinsk."

Maggie McKee, 02 August 2013
http://www.nature.com/news/russian-meteor-may-have-gangmates-in-tow-1.13498

"The house-sized rock that exploded spectacularly in the skies near Chelyabinsk, Russia, in February may have been a member of a gang of asteroids that still poses a threat to Earth, a new study says. The evidence is circumstantial, but future observations could help to settle the question.

"On 15 February, an 11,000-tonne space rock slammed into the atmosphere above Russia, producing the most powerful impact since the Tunguska explosion in 1908 - which may also have been caused by an asteroid - and generating a shock wave that damaged buildings and injured more than 1,000 people. The 18-metre-wide object could not be seen as it approached the planet because it was obscured by the Sun's glare, but observations made while it was in the atmosphere have enabled several groups of researchers to estimate its orbit2....

"The best sibling candidate, for instance, is a 200-metre-wide asteroid known as 2011 EO40, whose orbit was calculated from observations taken over just 34 days. That is too short a time to be able to pinpoint its position in the future, says Jon Giorgini, a senior analyst in the Solar System Dynamics Group at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. For that, researchers would need observations taken over the asteroid's two-year orbit, he says."

ASTRONOMERS DISCOVER COMETS IN ASTEROID BELT THAT CAN REVIVE AFTER MILLIONS OF YEARS

August 03, 2013

In the last decade twelve active comets have been discovered in the asteroid main belt region...

These comets may represent a long-lost population of the icy chunks of rocks, thought to have started out near the fringes of the planetary system, said the astronomers.

Comets' resurrection

'Lazarus comets' can come back to life when they pass relatively close to Jupiter, the biggest planet of the Solar System, and the shape of their orbits is tugged by Jupiter's gravity, bringing them closer to the sun, increasing the temperature, according to the study published in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.

"Imagine all these asteroids going around the Sun for eons, with no hint of activity. We have found that some of these are not dead rocks after all, but are dormant comets that may yet come back to life if the energy that they receive from the Sun increases by a few per cent," said Ferrin.

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: KML "The Two Witnesses?"

Throughout my life as a believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have read many views as to who these two witnesses could be. I have always tried to be open minded and "listen" to the different views. I have just read Renee's web site and her view. My concern with it is this:
1. Israel and the church are many individuals, and according to Rev 11:8,9 we read that these two individuals' bodies will lay in the street for 3 1/2 days. 2. John the Baptist and Jesus Christ died, and we believe and know that our Lord is raised up and sits at the right hand of the Father. For we read in Hebrews 9:27,28 that it is [appointed] unto men [once to die,] but after this the judgment: So Christ was [once] offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Always, Always, Always do I check any theory with the word of God.

Some have said that it cannot be Enoch because he was not a Hebrew. I read nothing that indicates that they must both be Hebrews, or that either must be Hebrews. We do know that the Israelites set a place for Elijah each year, because the Lord God promised to send him [before] the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5,6 For what I understand from these scriptures, these two men are the best candidates. Neither of these two men died. They were taken by God and did not see death.

Hebrews 9:27,28 must be fulfilled !
God has spoken it and he will also bring it to pass.
Blessings to you all. KML

MY REPLY

I think God's two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

Zec 4:11-14 says, "What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, THESE ARE THE TWO ANOINTED ONES, THAT STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH."

Jesus is the Lord of the whole earth. Those that stood by him at his transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Elias).

Mat 17:2-4; 7 says that Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias"

Mat 17:7 says, "And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid."

Mar 9:2-5 says, "And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

REVELATION 11

Rev 11:1-13 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE (i.e., in the First-Trump Rapture after Satan and his fallen angels are cast out of Heaven Mid-Trib), and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (i.e., last half of the Tribulation). 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (i.e., Moses and Elijah stood before Jesus at his Transfiguration)5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy (i.e., the last half of the Tribulation): and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast (Satan) that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER (i.e., in the Last-Trump Rapture). And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." Agape

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: Patty RP (6 Aug 2013) "For Mrs. Agee re: Saturn and now Rahab"

Sorry about the lateness of this reply. Thanks for your recent reply regarding Saturn. It's fascinating about the *north* pole of Saturn. The Bible mentions the "sides of the North" twice:

Psalms 48:2 (sides of the north)
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, [is] mount Zion, [on] the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Isaiah 14:13 (sides of the north)
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

------------------------------

Of course, I do not think that anyone who ponders about Saturn is some sort of evil person...how ignorant is that!

I bookmarked your site. I even went back and found something from that site:

http://prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com/procon1701.html

You mentioned that Rahab was satan's planet. I also believe the same! For years now, I have believed that it was Lucifer/satan's planet...that God busted it up and formed it into the Asteroid Belt. But, before reading what you had to say, I never realized that satan could be inside the 'habitation of a rock'...perhaps he is imprisoned in an asteroid? And...perhaps that asteroid is Wormwood?

Many people have believed that satan is imprisoned under the earth right at this time...but now I'm not so sure.

From scripture and what you have said, it seems perfectly plausible that he would be inside a rock...probably Wormwood. When that hits the earth...he would ultimately go into and inhabit the body of the 'AC'. A whole lot of people are going to die when that takes place. It is probably what would cause the Pole Shift (turn the world upside down). Something like that would "weaken the nations":

Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Jesus said in Luke 10:18

And he said unto them, I beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I believe that once satan falls to Earth, he is never getting out of it. Never.

From your site:

Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

My comments:

The chariots of his 'glory' will most likely be his and his co-fallen angels' ufo's (he is the principality of the air)..but they are the shame of the Lord's house.

Ephesians 6:12

King James Bible
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Very interesting as always, Mrs. Agee. YsiChrist, Patty RP

MY REPLY

> > Jesus said in Luke 10:18

> > And he said unto them, I beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Every time I see a picture of the lightning bolt striking St. Peter's Bascilica, I think of Satan falling from heaven as lightning. The lightning struck twice. The photographer missed the first strike, and got the second.

> > I believe that once satan falls to Earth, he is never getting out of it. Never.

I agree. It is certain that he won't be in heaven again.

Rev 12:7-9 says, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Continuing, Rev 12:10-12 says, "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (arti, just now, this day, this hour) is come salvation (soteria, RESCUE, probably the First-Trump Rapture), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser (Satan) of our brethren (i.e., believers) is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they (i.e., the believers) overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death (i.e., they did not finish out their years on Earth). 12 Therefore REJOICE, YE HEAVENS, AND YE THAT DWELL IN THEM (i.e., the bethren, the wise virgins, the Bride of Christ). Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (maybe 1040 days, 2300 -1260 = 1040, Dan 8:12-14; probably until Trumpets, Mon. Sept. 14, 2015, the Day of God's Wrath).

I expect the war in Heaven to be short.

Rev 17:8 says, "The beast that thou sawest (i.e., Satan) was (i.e., was in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man 10 days before the Rapture, Rev 2:10); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and GO INTO PERDITION, i.e., the False Prophet): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Judas), and is not (in man now), and yet is" (exists).

Rev 17:11 says, "And the beast (i.e., Satan) that was (i.e., in Judas), and is not (in man now), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (i.e., possessing the False Prophet).

Satan leads the Antichrist, and possesses the False Prophet. Maybe that is why there were two lightning bolts.

THE RAPTURE SEEMS NIGH, HOPEFULLY TABERNACLES, THUR. SEPT. 19, 2013

I think it was Charles that said that the Rapture will be on Thursday. That fits.

In Jer 8:20, some Israelites will say, "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved".

I hope most believers will be able to say with great relief that summer is ended and we ARE SAVED.

According to timeanddate.com, summer ends Sept. 22, 2013. The Rapture on Sept. 19 seems perfect.

Rev 17:12-14 says, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM (i.e., just raptured) are called, and chosen, and faithful."

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if the First-Trump Rapture is 10 days future.

Rev 2:10 says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a CROWN OF LIFE."

Rev_3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

That crown will be given at the time of the First-Trump Rapture.

> > before reading what you had to say, I never realized that satan could be inside the 'habitation of a rock'

I hadn't thought of him inside the rock, either. I pictured him living on the outside of the rock like we live on the outside of Earth, but he could work it both ways. Agape

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: Bill Griese (6 Aug 2013) "Reply to Marilyn Agee"

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/marilyna84-1.htm
My previous post: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/billg730.htm

I checked a Scofield 1 Bible and the note Laurie referenced was not in it, as you indicated, so Laurie must have the Scofield 2. However, this doesn't change things for me. Many ancient Greek manuscripts, the consensus of contemporary scholarship, and many English Bible Versions omit "us" in Rev 5:9 and use "them" instead of "us" and "they" instead of "we" in Rev 5:10. The context of the word "saints" in Rev 5:8 refers to the "prayers of the saints." The "prayers of the saints" aren't singing a new song in Rev 5:9, it's the Four Beasts and Twenty-four Elders who sing a new song. The phrase "hast redeemed" in the song refers to Calvary, and doesn't indicate a Rapture. In Rev 5:11-12, there are listed Many Angels, Four Beasts, and the 24 Elders, but no Church, it is assumed. I believe that the 24 Elders are Redeemed Old Testament Saints, and are not part of the Church. When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross many graves were opened, and after He was resurrected many Old Testament Saints rose and appeared to many.

Matt 27:50-53 KJV "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the (Old Testament) Saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Acts 6:7 KJV "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

The Old Testament Saints that arose included priests who went into the city and appeared to their Levitical Priest descendants causing many to believe. I believe the 24 Elders are from this group. The Lord told the 12 Apostles that they would sit on 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt 19:28). This doesn't make them part of the 24 Elders before the Throne of God in Heaven. The Apostle John in Rev 4:4, saw 24 Elders sitting on 24 seats around God's throne, and he was not one of them. I just don't see anything that makes me believe that John was both "narrator and actor" as you stated. Sorry, I don't see the Church in Heaven in Revelation chapters 4 & 5, and I certainly don't believe that I'm forcing the scriptures to say what I want them to say.

Rev 11:18 KJV "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The rewards are given to the Saints (in Rev 11:18) after the Seventh Trumpet (in Rev 11:15), not before the First Seal. Therefore, the 24 Elders Crowns in Revelation chapter 4 are not from the rewards to the Saints. This indicates they are not part of the Church and eliminates their Crowns as proof of a Rev 4:1 Rapture.

We are a mere ten days apart on the timing of the First Rapture event. I've said numerous times that Rev 2:10's "ten days" may be a timing clue, and that I would put the "Open Door" ten days following the Abomination of Desolation, which is ten days after your view. The Satanically indwelt Antichrist is tied up chasing the 144,000 (plus others who are not counted) into the wilderness, and disengages with them only after God's supernatural protection stops him. Antichrist then turns his attention on the remnant of the Saints (Rev 12:6-17). Ten days into the Great Tribulation?

However, we appear to have a major difference of opinion on the First Rapture event itself. There is no resurrection of the Dead in Christ at the "Open Door", which I believe is a secret event that will go unnoticed by the world. Christ only appears in the sky and resurrects the Dead in Christ at the "Gathering together of the Elect", which is the Main 2nd Rapture event (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:9-17). The "Open Door" is not a duplicate "Gathering together of the Elect" which is why scripture gives them different names. Both the Apostle John (Rev 4:1-2, A.D. 90's) and the Apostle Paul (2 Cor 12:2-4) were caught up through an "Open Door" which didn't necessitate Christ coming back in the sky.

In Rev 6:12-17, at the Sixth Seal, we see all the unsaved who see the Lord Jesus Christ coming in the sky at the "Gathering together of the Elect" trying to hide themselves, even telling the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. They know it's too late, having already received the Mark of the Beast. Now, you can imagine placing this event prior to the Mark of the Beast. Do you think anyone would follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? Very few, if any! Therefore, the "Open Door" can only be an event unseen by the world. The "Open Door" is an event to escape the persecution of Antichrist by those found "worthy to escape" per the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev 3:8,10, Luke 21:34-36). The Dead in Christ certainly have no need to escape the persecution of the Antichrist.

Rev 6:12-17 KJV "And I beheld when he had opened the Sixth Seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Luke 21:34-36 KJV "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always (repenting), that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." YBIC, Bill Griese

MY REPLY

> > The "prayers of the saints" aren't singing a new song in Rev 5:9, it's the Four Beasts and Twenty-four Elders who sing a new song.

A relative pronoun relates to the noun preceding it. "SAINTS. And THEY" (the saints)

Rev 5:8-10 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of SAINTS. 9 And THEY (the saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, on or over) the earth."

The four beasts are not saints. They represent Saturn's four faces, quarters, east, south, west and north. They do not sing the new song.

They represent the cardinal compass points, as do the four faces in Eze. 1:10. When Israel camped around the Tabernacle, four flags with these four faces were put at the compass points, east, south, west and north.

Eze 1:10 says of the four terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars), "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man (representing south), and the face of a lion (representing east), on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox (representing west) on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle (representing north)."

Eze 1:6 says, "And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings (kanaph, wings or quarters)." The four terrestrial planets are globes that face four directions all at the same time.

One of the four planets is Earth. Eze. 1:15 says, "Now as I beheld the living creatures (lively flying things), behold one wheel (orbit) upon the EARTH by the living creatures, with his four faces."

The 24 elders are all of Israel. They are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. They are not out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

The "saints" that have just been caught up to heaven are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" on Earth.

> > In Rev 6:12-17, at the Sixth Seal, we see all the unsaved who see the Lord Jesus Christ coming in the sky at the "Gathering together of the Elect" trying to hide themselves, even telling the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. They know it's too late, having already received the Mark of the Beast. Now, you can imagine placing this event prior to the Mark of the Beast. Do you think anyone would follow Antichrist and take his Mark after seeing Christ come in the sky? Very few, if any! Therefore, the "Open Door" can only be an event unseen by the world. The "Open Door" is an event to escape the persecution of Antichrist by those found "worthy to escape" per the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev 3:8,10, Luke 21:34-36). The Dead in Christ certainly have no need to escape the persecution of the Antichrist.

You are mixing apples and oranges. There are two Raptures, the first one in I Thess. 4:13-18 and the last one in I Cor. 15:51-54. Rev 6:12-17 is talking about the Day of God's Wrath, the day of the last Rapture.

At the first Rapture, Jesus may not appear. We are to meet him in the air. Nothing says that he will appear. At the last Rapture, Jesus will be seen. People will look up and see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky.

Of the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 38:18-23 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain (i.e., a tsunami), and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Mat 24:31 shows that the First-Trump Rapture has already taken place. It says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

The Last-Trump Rapture of the Tribulation saints is about to take place. We were caught up prior to this time. When the Last-Trump Rapture takes place, those caught up in the First-Trump Rapture are already in Heaven. There is a FIRSTBORN and a LASTBORN, a first trumpet and a last trumpet.

Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling".

It looks like we will have to agree to disagree. It is a good thing that things like this do not keep us from going up in the first Rapture. We will fill in the gaps as we proceed. Agape

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