Pro and Con 1761

Posted 11-9-13

ISON'S TRAJECTORY, BY NASA's DAVID GOULD, RET.



BOTH EARTH AND ISON COULD ARRIVE AT EARTH'S POINT 6 ON DEC. 27, 2013 IF ISON'S TRAJECTORY
CHANGES AS IT ROUNDS THE SUN. ISON WILL BE ABOUT SIX TIMES CLOSER TO EARTH THAN
IT WAS TO MARS WHEN MARS LIT UP LIKE A CHRISTMAS TREE. WILL EARTH GLOW?

A RAPTURE SYMBOL?



AT 7:11 AM ON 11-23-13, ISON WILL APPEAR TO BE NEARING SATURN, HEAVEN

Out of 84 comets expected to round the Sun in 2013, three, Encke (Nov. 21), McNaught (Nov. 24), and ISON (Nov. 28) will round the Sun in late November. Six, PanSTARRS, Larsen, Brewington, NEAT, Bus and LINEAR will round the Sun in December.
(http://cometison.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/comet-ison-c2012-s1-ison-encke-not-the-only-comets-that-will-round-the-sun-i-e-perihelion-in-november-2013/)(http://www.armaghplanet.com/blog/ison-things-you-need-to-know.html)

"ISON is coming! This new comet was in January 2013 just a dim speck in the constellation Gemini, between the stars Castor and Pollux."

MY COMMENT

In the Gospel in the Stars, Gemini (Castor and Pollux) is the sign of the Bride and Bridegroom sitting together in heavenly places.

Eph_2:6 says, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

Using a telescope on Nov. 9, the linup in the sky was Comet Encke, Comet ISON, Mars, Comet Lovejoy and Jupiter. In early December ISON will be seen in the pre-dawn sky as it goes through Scorpius, Ophiuchius, Serpens, Hercules and Draco.

Just beyond Draco is Cepheus and Cassiopeia, representing Christ as the King of kings and his Bride. Both are holding up pieces of cloth to show that they are religious leaders. For instance, we call a minister a man of the cloth.

Luk_21:11 says, "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

"Comet ISON in January 2014

"Throughout January 2014, C/2012 S1 ISON will be circumpolar from mid-northern latitudes, meaning that it will never set and will remain visible all night. The comet will start the month at the border between the constellations Draco and Ursa Minor, will sweep by the Pole Star on January 6 and 7 moving in Cepheus, and finally will cross into the large but faint constellation Camelopardalis around mid-month." http://www.nightskyinfo.com/ison/

It seems like the Rapture should take place before winter, which will arrive about Dec. 21. Mat 24:20 says, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" (i.e., Saturday).

Thurs. November 28, sounds just right. I'm hoping it will be that day.

SURPRISE! SATURN SINGS

Saturn is emitting radio signals that sound like music. Cassini discovered them during its arrival at the planet in July, 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGeWBiLVn8g

The tones are emitted as radio waves. They had to be reduced in their frequency by five to bring them into the range of human hearing.

WHY SATURN'S CLOUDS CHANGE COLOR

"When Cassini arrived in 2004 it was northern winter and Saturn's clouds had a bluish tint. Nine years later, it's early summer in the northern hemisphere and the clouds are distinctly more butterscotch-hued. Investigations have found that Increasing ultraviolet light from the sun creates a yellowish haze. During the winter season, when sunlight is less intense, the haze clears, letting us see further down in the atmosphere where the molecules scatter blue light like they do on Earth, giving Saturn a more bluish tint. The blue is further enhanced by methane gas, which absorbs red light. (http://astrobob.areavoices.com/)

COMET ENCKE IS NOW GLOWING GREEN AND SPOUTING A SPIKE-LIKE TAIL

http://astrobob.areavoices.com/

FOUR COMETS ARE NOW IN OUR SKY

http://www.universetoday.com/105806/four-comets-haunt-the-halloween-dawn-heres-how-to-see-them/ "No fewer than four bright-ish comets greet skywatchers an hour before the start of dawn. From upper left counterclockwise: C/2013 R1 Lovejoy, 2P/Encke, C/2012 X1 (LINEAR) and ISON.

http://earthsky.org/space/big-sun-diving-comet-ison-might-be-spectacular-in-2013#month-by-month "Comet ISON will come within 800,000 miles (1.2 million km) of our sun's surface on November 28. That's over 100 times closer to the sun than Earth....

"In November, ISON will pass very close to the bright star Spica and the planet Saturn, both in the constellation Virgo....

"Remember, though, at perihelion, Comet ISON will appear close to the sun on the sky's dome (only 4.4 (degrees) north of the sun on November 28)....

"On January 8, 2014, the comet will lie only 2 (degrees) from Polaris - the North Star.

On the morning of the 18th, we might be able to see something interesting with binoculars. Comet ISON will be close to Comet 2P Encke and Mercury!

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: Daniel 12:11

I'm wondering how we are to deal with these numbers in light of the current date and your ideas about June 1967 to April 9, 2016?

11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. I like your calculations, but don't know how this can fit?

MY REPLY

The 30-day month, the 12-month year, the 1260-day 3.5 years, are all estimated time, not exact time. A month can be 29 or 30 days. A year can be 12 or 13 months, etc. The 1260 days of the last half of the Tribulation are to be shortened. Mat_24:22 says, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Mar_13:20 says, "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." Agape

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: Lisa Taylor (4 Nov 2013) "The Rapture in Joel 2:32"

The Scripture readings at my church follow a pre-established Methodist lectionary schedule. On October 27, 2013, the Old Testament reading was from Joel 2:23-32. This is the familiar passage about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit before the Day of the Lord. My church uses a version of the Bible that I do not regularly use - the New Revised Standard Version. So, when I listened to the passage, I noticed a dichotomy in Joel 2:32 not obvious in the versions that I am used to using. It sounded like two groups of people were being addressed by this verse - those who escape and those who survive.

"The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls." Joel 2:31-32 (NRSV).

*(Here is the KJV for comparison: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.")

When I got home after church, I looked up the verse on the Blue Letter Bible site to check the accuracy of the NRSV translation. I think that there is enough leeway in the Hebrew to justify the translation. And I think that there is enough support elsewhere in the Bible to confirm that one group will escape the great and terrible day of the Lord, and that another group will survive through it.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Joe&c=2&t=KJV#s=t_conc_878032

If so, Joel 2:32 is a confirmation of a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

Identifying the 2 Groups

It should be noted from the outset that the verse puts the two groups into two separate locations - Mount Zion and Jerusalem. These locations help us to identify each group. Lucky for us, the Bible expressly tells us that Mount Zion is in heaven and that the Church of the Firstborn and the spirits of righteous men dwell there.

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven." Hebrews 12:22-25.

Furthermore, we know that the prophecy in Joel 2:23-32 concerns the Church because the Apostle Peter applied it to the Church during his sermon on Pentecost. (See Acts 2:14-21.)

So, we can safely assume that the Church is one of the groups addressed in Joel 2:32.

Since the passage in Joel mentions the Day of the Lord, we should see if the Bible connects another group to Jerusalem during that time period. We get guidance from the book of Zechariah, where God makes Jerusalem a cup of trembling during the end times. (See Zechariah 12:2.) The nations will gather against Jerusalem at the time of the Day of the Lord, and the Messiah will return to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to destroy their enemies.

"On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo." Zechariah 12:9-11.

Thus, this second group of people - the House of David (i.e. the Jews) - will find deliverance in Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord. They will be a remnant that survives the time of judgment.

"'In the whole land,' declares the Lord, 'two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The Lord is our God.'" Zechariah 13:8-9 (NIV).

So, the Church and the House of David are the two groups who will find deliverance in either Mount Zion or Jerusalem.

Escape or Survive?

According to Joel 2:32, deliverance can either be by escape or survival. Two words in the verse can be translated "escape" or "deliver." Throughout the Old Testament, these words are used to show absolute escape from judgment or survival through judgment.

Significantly, the word "malat" is used in connection with the escape of Lot and his daughters from Sodom. (See Genesis 19:17-22.) This was an instance of absolute escape from judgment. In fact, judgment could not be poured out upon Sodom until Lot was safely out of the city: "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither." Genesis 19:22 (KJV).

This sets an important precedent for us because the end times will be like the days of Lot. We can expect a future occurrence of escape before the judgment of God.

"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed .... I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left." Luke 17:28-36 (KJV).

Since Scripture tells us that the Jews will go through the period of judgment, the Church is the only candidate for this absolute escape from judgment.

Significantly, the other word used in Joel 2:32 - "peleytah" - is also used in two verses that confirm the existence of the two groups. 2 Kings 19:31 and Isaiah 37:32 read exactly the same because they quote the same prophecy of Isaiah:

"For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this (KJV)."

Note that this prophecy confirms that a remnant (i.e. survivors) will come out of Jerusalem and that "they that escape" will come out of Mount Zion. In order for people to come out of Mount Zion, they must first go into it. I believe that the escape of the "church of the firstborn" to Mount Zion is the Rapture.

Before the Day of the Lord

We should not overlook the timing of the prophecy in Joel 2 because it occurs before the coming of the great and terrible Day of the Lord. It gives us a clue as to the timing of the Rapture. When Peter quoted from Joel 2 on Pentecost, he ended the quote as follows:

"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:20-21 (NIV).

The complete prophecy, however, is as follows: "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord had said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls." Joel 2:31-32 (NIV).

Apparently, Peter left out the last part of the prophecy because it was not going to be fulfilled on that first Pentecost of the Church. It was still a future event. Since Peter specifically applied Joel 2 to the Church, however, escape to Mount Zion will be the next prophetic event for the Church.

But why only the Church? Because - while everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved - escape depends upon when a person calls upon the Lord. Those of us who have made the decision for Christ are already part of the Church of the Firstborn. ("He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18.) Our home is in Mount Zion.

But the Jews, as a people, have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah. And Jesus tells them that He will not return until they expressly call for Him.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" Matthew 23:37-39.

Since Jesus will return to earth someday, we can assume that the House of David will call upon the Lord at that time. He will deliver them - but not before that happens.

Final Thoughts

The time for our escape is coming soon. And there is no reason to miss it. Joel 2:32 tells us: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Maranatha. Next stop - Mount Zion! - Lisa Taylor

MY REPLY

> > Joel 2:32 is a confirmation of a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

To me, the Rapture in view in Joel 2:32 is the Last-Trump Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath, the great and terrible Day of the Lord, not the First-Trump Rapture.

THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE, BEFORE THE FIRST SEAL, THE BRIDE OF CHRIST IS ALREADY WEARING A WHITE ROBE, i.e., A WHITE WEDDING DRESS (NONE MADE IMMORTAL AT THIS TIME)

Rev 4:1 says, "behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Rev 5:7 says, "And he (Jesus, the Lamb of God) came and took the book (i.e., the 7 sealed book) out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

1Th 4:16-18 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP (i.e, the first trump) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE, ON THE DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, AFTER THE SIXTH SEAL, THIS LAST GROUP WILL HAVE TO WASH THEIR ROBES IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST TO MAKE THEM WHITE (ALL MADE IMMORTAL AT THIS TIME)

1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Joe 2:30-32 (KJV) says, "And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood (Rev 6:12), before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come (Rev 6:17). 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered (malat, ESCAPE, leap out, i.e., be raptured)".

Rev 6:12,17 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

Rev 7:14 says, " These are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God".

In the First-Trump Rapture, all sing the NEW SONG (Rev. 5:9,10).

In the Last-Trump Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites can sing the NEW SONG (Rev. 14:1-5). Agape

MY REPLY TO ANOTHER POST BY LISA TAYLOR ON FIVE DOVES

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2013/lisat119.htm

> > Lisa Taylor (9 Nov 2013)
"To Shan, Marilyn, and Charles"

> > Dear Shan, thank you very much for the encouragement and feedback. It is much appreciated.

> > Dear Marilyn and Charles, Thank you for your comments.

> > I have a bit of an unorthodox take on when the Tribulation/70th Week occurs in the book of Revelation. (And since I am the only one that I know that holds this position, it probably means that I am wrong :) I believe that Revelation is basically in chronological order, and I think that everything that precedes Revelation 11 is pre-tribulation.

from Marilyn: That is unorthodox.

I think opening the seals 1-6 in Rev 6 takes us from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the Great Tribulation. How do you interpret Rev 6:1 and 17?

Rev 6:1 says, "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Rev 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The Day of God's Wrath "is come" in Rev. 6:17. That is the end of the Tribulation. So where do you place Rev. 7 - 10?

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The angels are not given the 7 trumpets until the Day of God's Wrath has begun at the end of the Great Tribulation. Rev. 8 can't be Pre-Trib.

Rev 9:1 says, "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

This happens at the end of the Tribulation, not the beginning.

Rev 10:7 says, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The Tribulation can't be over before it begins.

> > I think that everything that precedes Revelation 11 is pre-tribulation.

Rev 10:7 says, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished".

How could the mystery of God be finished before the Tribulation begins?

> > I personally think that the Seal Judgments are already in progress. Clearly, the Sixth Seal has not been opened yet because there has not been a worldwide earthquake; but I think an argument can be made for the opening of the previous seals. For example, before the First Seal is opened there is an unsuccessful search for the Lamb.

John was told how The Revelation of Jesus Christ was to be organized.

Rev 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER" (after the Rapture).

Rev 4:1-4 mentions "HEREAFTER." It says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER. 2 And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (i.e., Jesus/God) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (last stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (first stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus/God is both the first and the Last): and there was a RAINBOW (i.e., Saturn's ring system) round about the throne (the throne of the only man/God is on Saturn (Eze 1:1, 26-28), in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

Saturn's rainbow rings are mentioned in both Eze 1 and Rev. 4:3.

Eze 1:1 says, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."

Eze 1:26-28 says, "And above the firmament (i.e., the expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the four terrestrial planets (i.e., Earth was one, v. 15) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone (sapphire, Sept. birthstone means heaven, and the word sapphire means Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani [Saturn] and priya, [dear]): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (i.e., the man/God Jesus) above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn is amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had BRIGHTNESS (i.e., Saturn's rings) round about. 28 AS THE APPEARANCE OF THE BOW THAT IS IN THE CLOUD IN THE DAY OF RAIN, SO WAS THE APPEARANCE OF THE BRIGHTNESS ROUND ABOUT. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."

2Co_5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself".

Jesus/God was the one sitting on the throne in Eze 1:26 and in Rev. 4:2. That is why the Lamb was used to represent Jesus taking the little book in Rev 5:5-9.

> > "Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, 'Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?' But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it." Revelation 5:1-3.

> > But why will there be an unsuccessful search for the Lamb (i.e. Jesus Christ) when Scripture expressly tells us where He can now be located? He is at the right hand of the Father. See Acts 2:33 and 7:56; and Hebrews 10:12. And the scroll is being held in God's right hand. So why isn't Jesus already there to take it?

He is there. Jesus, both man and God, is sitting on the throne of God. Therefore, the Lord used the symbol of the Lamb of God to picture Jesus taking the little book out of his own hand.

Rev 5:5-9 says, "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

> > Furthermore, Matthew 24:4-14 outlines the signs of the end of the age in such a way that it tracks what would be happening on earth if Seals 1 through 5 were already opened. It may be possible, then, that the effects of these seals have been accelerating - like birth pains - since the Ascension of Christ.

Rev 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., things John saw in the PREVIEW, when he was caught up to Heaven in the first Rapture, Rev. 5:9f), and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter".

Rev 1:9-19 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos (meaning mortal), for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks (i.e., the 7 churches) one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter".

> > There is no express verse that states that the Tribulation starts with the opening of the First Seal.

The 7 seals equal the Tribulation. It starts with the first seal and ends with the 7th seal.

> > I believe that the Sixth Seal is the time of the Rapture. (David Lowe's Earthquake Resurrection plays a big part in this belief.) Because I do not believe that the Tribulation has started at that time, however, a Sixth Seal Rapture is still a Pre-Trib Rapture for me.

I believe that the First-Trump Rapture precedes the opening of the first seal, and that the Last-Trump Rapture precedes the opening of the 7th seal.

Rev 7:9 says, "After this (i.e., after the sixth seal is broken and the beginning of the Day of God's Wrath has begun [Rev. 6:12,17]). I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

"Charles, ironically, my Sixth Seal Rapture matches the placement of your Pre-Wrath-Rapture. We differ, however, as to the timing of the Tribulation. (And note that it is unbelievers who are declaring it to be the day of wrath in Revelation 6:17. I am not sure if you can absolutely rely upon the statements of these unbelievers to prove your case."

2Ti_3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Rev 6:12 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood".

Rev 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7:9 says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This is the Last-Trump Rapture.

FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE

1Th 4:13-18 says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (phthano, precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE

1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

In the First-Trump Rapture, none are made immortal. At the Last-Trump Rapture, all are made immortal, you, me, even Paul. Agape

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