Pro and Con 1764

Posted 11-16-13

OPHIUCHUS STANDS FOR JESUS WRESTLING SATAN TO KEEP
HIM FROM GETTING THE CROWN, CORONA BOREALIS

THE OLIVE HARVEST ENDS KISLEV 24/NOV. 27, THE DATE OF JESUS' CONCEPTION

Hag 2:18,19 says, "Consider now from this day and upward (maal, RISE UP, from alah, to ASCEND UP AT ONCE, i.e., to be raptured), from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid (Kislev 24, Jesus' conception), consider it. 19 Is the seed (Jesus, Gen. 3:15) yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the OLIVE TREE, hath not brought forth: FROM THIS DAY WILL I BLESS YOU."

THE RAPTURE COULD BE ON KISLEV 25, HANUKKAH/THANKSGIVING, NOV. 28 (which means eternal life), OR 29 (which means DEPARTURE and will be the 40th day after the Lord closed the door of the Ark on Cheshvan 17). It also seems significant that Israel became a nation on Nov. 29, 1947.

Considered inpossible, six comets will be in our sky, ISON, LOVEJOY, Linear, Encke, Nevski and Borisov. ISON will turn north on the 29th at the foot of Ophiechus, which is Iesous in Greek, Jesus in English.

If the Rapture takes place on Nov. 28/29, there sure will be lots of love and joy.

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: Lisa Taylor (15 Nov 2013) "To Marilyn re: The Rapture & Tribulation in Revelation"

Thanks again for your comments. I will only address some of your major points:

1. Timing of the Seals: I really think that the search for Jesus Christ in Revelation 5:3 tells us that He was literally not in heaven or on earth or under the earth. But you say: "He is there. Jesus, both man and God, is sitting on the throne of God. Therefore, the Lord used the symbol of the Lamb of God to picture Jesus taking the little book out of his own hand."

That is an assumption, and a pretty big one considering that Scripture expressly tells us that Jesus could not be found in heaven. And don't you think that John, his own disciple, would have recognized Him sitting there, instead of weeping so much in Revelation 5:4?

I see no reason why Revelation 5:3 should not be taken literally. If it says that Jesus was not at 3 specific locations, then He was not at those locations. We know that the scene takes place after the crucifixion (because He appears as a slain Lamb), but it must also take place before He is placed at the right hand of God (or He could have been found). I do not know what else fits but the Ascension. That is also why I believe that we are given a glimpse of the past here - and not the start of the Tribulation.

This is not the first time that we are given a glimpse of Christ's return to heaven. Take a look at Zechariah 3 where Joshua the high priest is standing before God with Satan accusing him. He is given new clothes to wear. And we are told: "Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch." Zechariah 3:8. So, I have no problem with the idea that God could again show us what happened to Christ after the Ascension.

Jesus was not always at the right hand of God; He was on earth during His ministry and under the earth during the time of His death (See Matthew 12:40; Ephesians 4:8-9; and 1 Peter 3:18-22.). Jesus was exalted to the position at the right hand of God after His resurrection. (It seems like you are trying to blur Jesus into the being that is already sitting on the throne. Scripture clearly refers to them as two separate beings. I am sorry but it is a little odd to have Jesus hand Himself the scroll.)

"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and here. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, 'The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'" Acts 2: 32-35.

How can you command someone to sit if they are already sitting?

"But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Hebrews 12-14.

These verses clearly show us that He was seated at the right hand of God AFTER His death and resurrection, and that He is there today.

2. Wrath of the Lamb: I stated to Charles that the speakers of Revelation 6:16 are unbelievers. And no, I would not base a major eschatological point on the statement of an unbeliever. These are the same folks who will say "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" in Revelation 13:4. Is that belief true just because it is in the Bible? Or is it merely reciting what these people are going to say at that time. Yes, Scripture is inspired. But if a statement is not clearly attributed to God, I think we should look at the speaker and context of a passage, and see how it lines up with the rest of Scripture, before we claim it as doctrine.

Here, in Revelation 11:17-18, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, you will see the starting point of the wrath of God. (Note that the trumpets are sounded after the breaking of the seals.) The 24 Elders are the speakers: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great - and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Please note that the Seventh Trumpet is sounded immediately after the 1260 day ministry of the Two Witnesses plus 3.5 days. (See Revelation 11:11-18.) Therefore, we are at the mid-point of the Tribulation here.

Also, in Revelation 14:6-7 we find the following: "Then I saw another angel flying in mid air, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth - to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come." (Clearly, God's judgment starts here!)

You say: "The angels are not given the 7 trumpets until the Day of God's Wrath has begun at the end of the Great Tribulation." BUT only the subsequent bowl judgments are called the "seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." Revelation 16:1. Why are not the seals and trumpets called the seals and trumpets of God's wrath? Because there is a clear cut demarcation that does not occur until the mid-point of the Tribulation. (And please remember that the Seventh Trumpet is blown right after the 1260 day ministry of the 2 Witnesses - so the Seals and Trumpets are restricted to the first half of the Tribulation.)

No offense, but I will trust words the 24 Elders and an angel of God over the unsaved hiding in caves. The day of God's wrath comes after the Seventh Trumpet.

3. Assumptions: I reiterate that there is no express verse that states that the Tribulation starts with the opening of the First Seal. You must concede that much. We both have to make assumptions and I admit mine are unorthodox. For me, however, the absence of the increments of time that coincide with Daniel's Seventieth Week, prior to Revelation 11, is significant. God could have easily made mention of them earlier - but He did not. So, I base the start of the Tribulation at the point where these increments of time are mentioned.

There are other significant things that are not mentioned prior to Revelation 11 - for example, the 2 Witnesses, the Temple, the Beast and the False Prophet, the Abomination that Causes Desolation. For that reason, I also believe that none of those things occur or are present in the previous chapters.

For me, Revelation 11 is a major milestone in the prophetic timeline of the book of Revelation.

4. Opening of the Seals: I no longer feel bound to start the Tribulation with the opening of the First Seal. Matthew 24:8 tells us that bad things can and will happen prior to the actual Tribulation: "All these are the beginning of birth pains." Since the things that Jesus describes in Matthew 24:4-14 do match up with Seals 1-5, why can't they be related? Like labor pains, they could be accelerating throughout the Church Age.

5. Great tribulation of Revelation 7:14: You must already know that there are many opinions as to the interpretation of this passage. Is the great multitude the Church or Tribulation Saints? Is this tribulation in general or the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation - often called the Great Tribulation?

I can only tell you what I believe and it is obviously colored by my view on Revelation. I believe in a Sixth Seal Rapture, and because the great multitude shows up right after it is opened, I believe that the multitude is the Church. I believe that "they which came out of great tribulation" refers to either the immediate travail of the Sixth Seal or the future (Revelation 11) Tribulation. It works either way for me.

6. Mystery of God in Rev. 10:7: You said: "How can the mystery of God be finished before the Tribulation begins? According to Scripture, the mystery is finished at the mid-point of the Tribulation. Trumpets 1-6 have been sounded at this point in the Bible. And Revelation 11 tells us that the Seventh Trumpet will be sounded immediately after the 1260 day ministry of the 2 Witnesses - which is the mid-point of the Tribulation.

"But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." Revelation 10:7.

AND something significant does happen at the blowing of this trumpet:

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." Revelation 11:15.

So you will have to ask God Himself why this mystery is accomplished BEFORE the 7 Bowl Judgments, the fall of Babylon, the Battle of Armageddon, the end of the Tribulation, AND the Second Coming. I can only tell you that Scripture clearly shows that it will happen prior to all of these things.

7. First and Last Trump Raptures: Look, this is clearly a theory that you are married to, and it is hardly one of those things worth debating between Christians. I know that you have taken years to formulate your position and it is the same for me. As I said in my previous post, I am the only one that I know who takes a chronological and literal view of Revelation to the extent that I do. Time will tell for both of our theories. And I doubt that either of us will be 100% correct :) God bless you. Lisa Taylor

MY REPLY

The Son of God existed in Old Testament times.

Pro_30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name (YHWH), and what is his son's name (YHWH of hosts), if thou canst tell?"

Isa 44:6-8 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH the King of Israel), and I am the last (his redeemer the YHWH of hosts); and beside me there is no God."

The Son of God appeared as the angel of the LORD in Old Testament times.

Isa 48:12-18 says, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. 14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret FROM THE BEGINNING; FROM THE TIME THAT IT WAS, THERE AM I: and now the (1) Lord GOD, and (2) his Spirit, hath sent (3) ME. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! "

Joh_14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Heb 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down ON THE RIGHT HAND of the Majesty on high".

Isa 53:1 says of Jesus, "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"

> > I see no reason why Revelation 5:3 should not be taken literally. If it says that Jesus was not at 3 specific locations, then He was not at those locations. We know that the scene takes place after the crucifixion (because He appears as a slain Lamb), but it must also take place before He is placed at the right hand of God (or He could have been found). I do not know what else fits but the Ascension. That is also why I believe that we are given a glimpse of the past here – and not the start of the Tribulation.

Jesus has been on his throne in Heaven since the Ascension. As YHWH of hosts, he was already on his heavenly throne.

> > Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

It says, "no man". It doesn't say Jesus. The Lord Jesus Christ is not just a man. He is both man and God. He is like no other.

In Eze 1:1, Ezekiel said, " the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of GOD."

In verses 26-28, Ezekiel said, "And above the firmament (i.e., expanse of space) that was over their heads (i.e., farther out in space than the four terrestrial planets, of which Earth was one, Eze. 1:15) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire (sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn) and priya, dear) stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a MAN (i.e., a GOD/MAN, Jesus Christ) above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn is amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it (i.e., it looks like a lighted lamp in the night sky), from the appearance of his loins (i.e., from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (i.e., Saturn's ring system) round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about (sabiyb, circling it). This (i.e., Saturn's ring system) was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD (YHWH)."

Heaven has a halo to set it apart from the other planets.

In Joh_10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

God is everywhere; "in him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). Therefore, as God, Jesus is everywhere.

Joh_1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Man was created not being able to see God, probably to prove a point to Satan.

Satan and the fallen angels failed to obey God. If man, not being able to see God, could still obey Him, he would be just in putting the fallen angels and their leader in prison. I learned this from R.B. Thieme.

In both the first and last chapters of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", Jesus said that he was both Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.

In Rev 1:8, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Rev_22:1 says, "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb."

Rev 22:3,4 says, "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne (one throne) of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him (singular): 4 And they shall see his face (i.e., one face); and his name (one name) shall be in their foreheads."

Rev 22:13, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

The throne of God in Heaven is occupied by the God/man Jesus Christ.

Rev 4:2,3 says, "And immediately I (John) was (literally became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one (i.e., Jesus) sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (last stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (first stone in the breastplate): and there was a rainbow (i.e., Saturn's rings) round about the throne (on Saturn), in sight like unto an emerald" (Judah's stone in the breastplate, indicating that this is Jesus, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah).

> > (It seems like you are trying to blur Jesus into the being that is already sitting on the throne.

Yes. Definitely.

Scripture clearly refers to them as two separate beings. I am sorry but it is a little odd to have Jesus hand Himself the scroll.)

How would you have written the script of the play "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"? when you got to this part?

That is why the symbols of the Lamb and the Lion of the tribe of Judah were used. There is no reason to mistake the identity of both. They stand for Jesus.

Rev 5:1-5 says, "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

Who is the "Root of David"? Jesus.

Rev 22:16 says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR

Saturn will be a bright and morning star in Libra at 3 AM on Nov. 29, 2013. See the picture from YourSky above. The number 29 means departure. That might be the time of the First-Trump Rapture.

There will be 6 comets in our sky, ISON, Lovejoy, Linear, Encke, Nevski and Borisov. ISON will round the Sun on Nov. 28 and head north on Nov. 29. If that is the day of the First-Trump Rapture, there will be lots of love and joy.

> > These verses clearly show us that He was seated at the right hand of God AFTER His death and resurrection, and that He is there today.

He is also here today. Heb_13:5 says, "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

> > the Seals and Trumpets are restricted to the first half of the Tribulation.

The trumpet judgments come out of the 7th seal on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation.

Rev 6:12 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood".

Rev 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

> > Here, in Revelation 11:17-18, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, you will see the starting point of the wrath of God. (Note that the trumpets are sounded after the breaking of the seals.) The 24 Elders are the speakers: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great – and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

After the sixth seal is broken in Rev 6:12, verse 17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The trumpets are given to the 7 angels in Rev. 8, after the seventh seal is broken.

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was SILENCE in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The silence in both Heaven and Earth is when Jesus is being seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ after he has received his millennial kingdom.

Hab_2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep SILENCE before him."

Those on Earth and those in Heaven will both receive judgment at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Rev 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (i.e., the Second Advent is 7 months future, Eze 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

This is the worldwide earthquake of Eze. 38 and Rev 16:18.

Eze 38:18-23 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., they see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Rev 16:17-19 says, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

> > I think we should look at the speaker and context of a passage, and see how it lines up with the rest of Scripture, before we claim it as doctrine.

2Ti_3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Agape

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