Pro and Con 1871

Posted 7-24-15

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: WHEN IS THE RAPTURE?
BEFORE OR AFTER THE TRIBULATION?

From: Robert G.
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 5:56 PM
To: spirit5@singnet.com.sg
Cc: mjagee@verizon.net ; rgreese49@aol.com

To All the Doves....

What I do not want to do is start a divisive debate, but I would like to hear thoughts from The Doves on the timing of The Rapture. For a time I was convinced that there would be a pretribulation rapture. Then I read the scriptures again and considered the wording of Matthew 24: it does say "after these things". I've considered that God has always saved; from Lot, to Noah, to Daniel, and other figures in the scriptures, God has always saved his chosen. The timing of The Rapture has been discussed many times, but there is always more to learn, more to understand, and in the process to grow in faith, love, and trust in The Lord.

I don't know if we are in the end times, but each day does take us closer. Like many I am watching. Wondering about the timing, and the signs, and the end days is all part of the waiting. I'm praying that the many wiser than me will share and help me in my journey.

Ultimately I hope we can all agree that the timing is an interesting discussion, we should be watching, but we should not be squabbling. In the end we are saved by The Blood of The Lamb. Again I ask, please don't turn my simple question into anything more than just a request for a greater understanding.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him...."

""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also...."

Both are passages that give hope and comfort. Both teach encourage us to put our faith in Jesus, and to trust. However we are human, and we have fear, and we have weakness. Or perhaps I should say I have fear and weakness?? We can encourage each other with words and scripture. Please share what you can.

Maranatha
Robert G.

MY REPLY

> > When is the Rapture? Before or after the Tribulation?

There are two Raptures. They bracket the Great Tribulation. The First-Trump Rapture of I Th 4:16,17 is Mid-Trib. The Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54 is at the end of the Great Tribulation.

THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE OF I THESS 4:16,18 IS FOR THE WISE VIRGINS; THEY ARE CAUGHT UP MID-TRIB AND MADE INCORRUPTIBLE, BUT NOT YET IMMORTAL

1Th 4:16-18 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we (i.e., brethren, believers, verse 1) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE OF I COR 15:51-54 INCLUDES THE FOOLISH VIRGINS; AFTER THEY ARE CAUGHT UP, THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY OF THE SAINTS WILL ACTUALLY BECOME IMMORTAL

1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

THE FIRST TRUMPET OF THE LORD IS BEFORE THE FIRST SEAL IS BROKEN

Rev_4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Jesus is given the seven-sealed book after the Mid-Trib Rapture, so the seals, angel trumpets, and vials all take place in the Great Tribulation. We won't be here when the seals are broken.

Rev 6:1,2 says, "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he (i.e., the FALSE PROPHET) that sat on him had a bow (toxon, plain fabric, i.e., he is a man of the cloth); and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Mat_7:15 says, "Beware of FALSE PROPHETS, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

The Pope's badge of office is the woolen pallium he wears around his neck.

THE FIRST TRUMPET OF THE LORD SOUNDS MID-TRIB

Rev 10:11 says, "Thou must prophesy AGAIN before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

Therefore, the "Rise" in Rev 11:1 is the same as the "COME UP HITHER" of Rev 4:1. The second Rapture is when Moses and Elijah are told to "COME UP HITHER" in Rev 11:12. The two come up hithers bracket the Great Tribulation.

Rev 11:1-3 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses (i.e., Moses and Elijah), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great Tribulation), clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 11:12-15 says, "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great EARTHQUAKE (i.e., when Satan's asteroid Wormwood impacts Earth at Babylon), and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

THE LAST TRUMPET OF THE LORD IS AFTER THE SIXTH SEAL IS BROKEN, BUT BEFORE THE SEVEN ANGELS ARE GIVEN SEVEN TRUMPETS AFTER THE SEVENTH SEAL IS BROKEN

Rev 6:12-17 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

Rev 7:9-15 says, "AFTER THIS I BEHELD, AND, LO, A GREAT MULTITUDE, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, OF ALL NATIONS, AND KINDREDS, AND PEOPLE, AND TONGUES, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation (soteria, rescue, deliverance, salvation, i.e., the Last-Trump Rapture) to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

SATAN'S ASTEROID WORMWOOD IMPACTS EARTH AND DESTROYS THE HARLOT CHURCH OF BABYLON

Rev 18:4 says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Rev 8:5-7 says, "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

Rev 8:10 says, "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood".

Rev 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Rev 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

I JUST FIGURED THIS OUT RECENTLY; I USED TO BELIEVE IN THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

However, it doesn't look like Jesus promised us a Pre-Trib Rapture. In John 16:33, he plainly said, "In the world YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Acts 14:22 says, "we must through much TRIBULATION enter into the kingdom of God."

Back in the late 60s and early 70s, when I lived in La Mirada, CA, I read about an 18" stack of books from BIOLA's Seminary Collection each week for 7 years.

I went to hear R.B. Thieme preach more than once, taping the lessons. I listened to tapes from his lending library. I was convinced that the Rapture would be Pre-Trib.

When I lived in Lomita, CA, we attended Rolling Hills Covenant Church. Chuck Swindoll was the pastor. Along with listening to him in church, I studied his tapes, and was convinced that he was right about the Pre-Trib Rapture.

When I lived in Yorba Linda, CA, we attended Calvary Church of Santa Ana. David Hocking was the pastor. I was convinced that he was right about the Pre-Trib Rapture too.

In 1996, when I got online, I agreed with Dr. Thomas Ice. I totally believed in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

LATELY, I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND

First, I knew that there are two Raptures, one at the first trump of the Lord, the other at his last trump.

THE FIRST TRUMP OF GOD

1Th_4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

THE LAST TRUMP OF GOD

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP (i.e., of God): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

THE ANTICHRIST, "THE SON OF PERDITION", AND "THAT WICKED" FALSE PROPHET

2Th 2:1-4 says, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (i.e., in the First-Trump Rapture), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (i.e., should be day of the Lord, as in the Vatican Codex, the Augustinian Codex and the Siniatic Codex) is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (should be DEPARTING, as in the Geneva Bible and the World English Bible, i.e., the FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE JUST BEFORE MID-TRIB), and that man of sin be revealed, THE SON OF PERDITION (i.e., the Satan-possessed False Prophet); 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (i.e., when he is revealed at Mid-Trib)."

Continuing, verses 5-9 say, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time (i.e., the Great Tribulation). 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (i.e., the Holy Spirit) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way (i.e., at the time of the Mid-Trib First-Trump Rapture). 8 And then (tote, at that time, i.e., Mid-Trib) shall THAT WICKED (i.e., the False Prophet) be revealed (i.e., he won't be taken up in the Rapture), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders".

I AM NOW CONVINCED THAT THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE WILL BE ABOUT MID-TRIB

I had already figured out that the first Rapture would be Mid-Trib, but I was reading Rev. 13 when it soaked in that it could be a bit before Mid-Trib. The words "THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN" got my attention. Those saints are in Heaven near the end of the first beast's, the Antichrist's, 42 month reign. I'll quote Rev. 13 in a minute. I want to set the scene first.

Rev 12 sets the time Satan is cast out of Heaven and when the First-Trump Rapture of I Th 4:16,17 takes place at about Mid-Trib. Those left behind in Israel flee to Petra for the 1260-day Great Tribulation that will get shortened. The Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54 takes place at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. So the two raptures bracket the shortened Great Tribulation.

THE MID-TRIB FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE

Rev 12:6-12 says, "And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness (i.e., MID-TRIB), where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great Tribulation). 7 And there was war in heaven: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the dragon (i.e., Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and SATAN, WHICH DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD: HE WAS CAST OUT INTO THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (arti, just now, i.e., Mid-Trib) is come salvation (soteria, rescue, deliverance, i.e., the First-Trump Rapture), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for (hoti, because) the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 THEREFORE REJOICE, YE HEAVENS, AND YE THAT DWELL IN THEM. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time (i.e., the shortened Great Tribulation)."

IN REV 13, THE ANTICHRIST RULES THE FIRST 42 MONTHS OF THE TRIBULATION, AND THE FALSE PROPHET RULES DURING THE FOLLOWING SHORTENED GREAT TRIBULATION

Keep in mind that Rev 17:15 says that "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

Rev 13:1,2 says, "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast (therion, a dangerous animal) rise up out of the sea (i.e., nations), having seven heads (i.e., leaders of Babel, Babylon II, Media-Persia, Greece, Holy Roman Empire, Ecclesiastical Holy Roman Empire and Babylon III) and ten horns (i.e., kings), and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (i.e., Pontifex Maximus, started by Nimrod at the Tower of Babel, and assumed by all the other leaders). 2 And the beast (i.e., ANTICHRIST, the Pontifex Maximus of the first half of the Tribulation) which I saw was like unto a leopard (i.e., Greece, Dan 7:6), and his feet were as the feet of a bear (i.e., Media-Persia, Dan. 7:5), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion (Babylon II, Dan 7:4): AND THE DRAGON GAVE HIM HIS POWER, AND HIS SEAT (THRONOS, THRONE), AND GREAT AUTHORITY.

Continuing, Rev. 13:3-10 says, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon (i.e., Lucifer, Satan) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast (i.e., ANTICHRIST), saying, Who is like unto the beast? (i.e., the Pontifex Maximus) who is able to make war with him? 5 And THERE WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM A MOUTH SPEAKING GREAT THINGS AND BLASPHEMIES; AND POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO CONTINUE FORTY AND TWO MONTHS (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation). 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN (i.e., the First-Trump Rapture of the wise-virgin saints just took place near Mid-Trib). 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints (i.e., the foolish-virgins left behind) , and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations (i.e., after the first Rapture). 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 IF ANY MAN HAVE AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Rev 13:11,12 says, "And I beheld another beast (i.e., Satan) coming up out of the earth (i.e., where he was cast Mid-Trib); and he had two horns (i.e., two comings to power in man, in Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet) like a lamb (i.e., Jesus, who has two advents), and he (the now Satan-possessed False Prophet) spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

DANIEL 12:1 IS TALKING ABOUT THE POST-TRIB LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE BECAUSE EVERYONE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK ARE RAPTURED

Dan 12:1 says, "And at that time (i.e., Mid-Trib) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be (i.e., after that) a time of trouble (i.e., the Great Tribulation), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME (i.e., at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation) thy people shall be delivered (malat, escape, leap out, i.e., be raptured), every one (i.e., including the foolish virgins) that shall be found written in the book."

Of the 144,000 Israelites and a great multitude of others too large to count, Rev 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

> > I don't know if we are in the end times, but each day does take us closer.

I think we are in the first half of the Tribulation, and that the First-Trump Rapture might be next Pentecost, Sunday, June 12, 2016. Song of Solomon 2:10f and Isa. 18:3f suggest the time of firstripe grapes. That starts June 1, so next Pentecost fits. Jesus came to indwell the Church on Pentecost Sunday. Maybe he will come to rapture the Church on next Pentecost Sunday.

The Preview of the first Rapture in Rev 1:9-11 shows that it is on the Lord's day in the Tribulation.

Rev 1:9-11 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos (i.e., meaning mortal), for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day (i.e., Sunday, day of Jesus' resurrection), and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last".

Dan 8:13,14 says, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

3-13-13 + 42 months (Rev 13:5) = Mon. Sept. 19, 2016, Elul 16, 5776. That just might be Mid-Trib. 3-13-13 + 2300 days (Dan 8:14) = Sat. July 6, 2019, Tamuz 3, 5779. That just might be the end of the Great Tribulation.

OUTLANDISH THINGS POPE FRANCIS, CHOSEN 3-13-13, ANNOUNCED AT 8:13 PM, AND NAMED AFTER A 13TH CENTURY SAINT, ELECTED 13 DAYS AFTER HIS PREDECESSOR RESIGNED, HAS SAID

Pope Francis said, "Our Christian identity is belonging to a people: the Church. Without this, we are not Christians. We entered the Church through baptism: there we are Christians." "We must meet one another doing good." To those who say, "But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!," the pope said, "But do good: We will meet one another there."

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists."

He believes that Muslims pray to and worship the "one God" that he also worships.

"Koran And Holy Bible Are The Same"

"All religions are true, because they are true in the hearts of all those who believe in them. What other kind of truth is there?"

In a Marian Day celebration, he consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary at an October 13, 2013 Mass in St. Peter's Square. "When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so. He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment." THE BOMBSHELL: "Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. THE CHURCH NO LONGER BELIEVES IN A LITERAL HELL WHERE PEOPLE SUFFER," said Francis, according to the Chronicle".

IN THE BIBLE

Psa_9:17 says, "The wicked shall be turned into HELL, and all the nations that forget God."

In Mat_10:28, Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in HELL."

In Rev_1:18, Jesus said, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of HELL and of death."

Rev_20:13,14 says, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and HELL were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

I believe what Jesus and the Bible say. Agape

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