Pro and Con 1897

Posted 12-18-15

"VATICAN CALLS ON CATHOLICS TO STOP
TRYING TO CONVERT JEWS; THE VATICAN'S
NON-BIBLICAL POSITIONS CONTINUE"

Koenig's International News, Dec. 11, 2015
http://watch.org/(12-10-15)

"Jews can secure eternal salvation without converting to Christianity, senior Catholic theologians said in a report published Thursday, in the latest refinement of their stance on a vexed theological issue.

"Addressing a question that has long blighted relations between the two faiths, the report also unequivocally stated that the Catholic Church should not actively seek to convert Jews to Christianity and called for the church to work to eliminate anti-Semitism.

"The document, issued by the Vatican's Commission for Religious Relations with Jews, not only effectively affirmed that Jews can be saved independently of Jesus, but described Christianity's relationship with Jews as a shared patrimony.

"Although Jews cannot believe in Jesus Christ as the universal redeemer, they have a part in salvation, because the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" the report concluded, according to a summary released to the media."

"JEWS DON'T NEED TO CONVERT TO JESUS...THE POPE KNOWS BEST!"

http://www.newantisemitism.com/antisemitism/jews-dont-need-to-convert-to-jesus-the-pope-knows-best
Dec. 11, 2015

"the current Pope has now announced that Jewish people do not need Jesus and that the Catholic Church should not try to convert Jewish people....

"And of course, it is of the utmost importance to stop trying to "convert" Jews to Christianity. But is it possible that the reason for such a change is different that what the Pope would expect. Simply put, Jews don't convert because they have no need to convert. If indeed, Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah (Isaiah 52:13-53-12) then there is nothing more natural for a Jewish person than to follow their Jewish Messiah. It is a personal choice that nobody can force us to make. So in a sense, the Pope is right, Jews do not ever need to convert to Yeshua, yet if it turns out that He [Yeshua] is the Jewish Messiah spoken of by the Jewish Prophets (Gen. 49:10, Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7, Mic. 5:2), then maybe it would benefit the Jewish people to follow Him."

HERE IS WHAT THOSE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES SAY

Gen 49:10,11 says, "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes"

Isa 7:14 says, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Isa 9:6,7 says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Mic 5:2 says, "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

HERE IS WHAT SOME OTHER SCRIPTURES SAY

Pro_30:4 (KJV) says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name (i.e., Elohiym, God), AND WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell?"

Mat 1:18-25 says, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY GHOST. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (The HNV says, "He named him YESHUA.")

Act_4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

EVERY HUMAN BEING NEEDS A SAVIOUR

Psa_53:3 says, "Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Rom_3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: VATICAN IS WRONG, JEWS NEED JESUS FOR SALVATION, SAYS MESSIANIC GROUP

http://thejerusalemconnection.us/blog/2015/12/15/vatican-is-wrong-jews-need-jesus-for-salvation-says-messianic-group/

By Stoyan Zaimov, Dec 15, 2015

"A leading Messianic group in America has responded to the Vatican's recent claim that Jews do not need to be believers in Jesus Christ to be saved, by saying that the Apostle Paul would have been 'horrified' at the suggestion."

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: Upcoming Rapture

Greetings to you from our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.

I found your website through a convoluted journey that started from a strange e-mail I received that appeared to be a scam e-mail. I rarely look for or read other people's prophecy websites for various reasons.

However, I did skim yours for just a few minutes and can see you do have some understanding of the last days where others who claim to be experts know very little. I see you have made predictions in the past when the rapture will occur that did not happen. I also see you are now hoping (expecting) the rapture occurs on Pentecost, Sunday, June 12, 2016. You do realize, that by believing in a mid-tribulation rapture (which is true by the way), this would mean Christ will return 42 months later in January 2019? Now I do not support the idea of two raptures, as most do not, but I can agree it will occur just after the sixth seal is opened. Besides, if you are correct (since there are only about 6 months to this date), then the first five seals have already been opened... correct?

The first seal being opened 3 years ago based on a seven-year tribulation (as many support) along with your idea of a mid-tribulation rapture occurring in the near future. I hope I have captured your logic thus far accurately.

Having written all that background information, shouldn't a reasonable person expect that since the 4th seal has already been opened, that the killing of 25% of the world population would be well underway? And yet we see no evidence of this easily identifiable sign. Would you not expect that the covenant that the Antichrist will make 7 years before the return of Christ (Daniel 9) should have already been made in 2013 so that some knowledgeable Christian would be able to point this out? Why do you think God's plan is for Christ to return in January 2019 or that he left you and I and every Christian I know out of the first rapture? Surely there must be someone we know that was deemed worthy if there are two raptures and one has already occurred?

I do not ask these questions as a means to do anything more than have you reflect about the ramifications of what you wrote on your website and your thoughts that the rapture will occur next June. Would it not be better to actually know when the rapture will occur then to hope and keeping guessing when the time will be? Just asking. I can see the Lord has given you the ability to understand some of the complexities of prophecy, it just that you are just not seeing the whole picture. If you could see that, then everything would become clear.

May the Light of the World use you in these last days as a beacon to those who do not know the saving grace of Jesus.

MY REPLY

> > The first rapture probably will occur on June 12, 2016 because this is the next Pentecost and every year when this does not occur, you change the date to the next Pentecost in the future?

No. I have explored other dates for the Rapture, not just Pentecost. However, I started with Pentecost, and am presently thinking the first Rapture will be on Pentecost. The two loaves waved before the Lord on Pentecost just might indicate that there are two fulfillments, one on the downstroke and one on the upstroke.

There was a wave offering on Firstfruits too, and the resurrected Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven on that Day.

1Co 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

He came to indwell believers on Pentecost, the beginning of grape harvest, which agrees with Song of Solomon 2:10f and Isa 18;3f. The grape harvest starts June 1st and ends on Tabernacles. Next Pentecost is Sun. June 12, 2016.

If the Tribulation began when this Pontifex Maximus (who, on Oct 29, 2014, said that God was not divine) was chosen on 3-13-13, Mid-Trib would be on Aug. 24, 2016. The preceding feast is Pentecost.

The trumpet was to be sounded on feast days. The First-trump Rapture could be on Pentecost, and the Last-Trump Rapture on Tabernacles.

1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."...

> > This event happens at the first trump (the first trumpet judgment) which occurs before the first seal is opened for some unexplained reason 73 days later on August 24, 2016.... the day the mid-tribulation begins at the revealing of the antichrist.

I think the first seal will be opened when the False Prophet is revealed Mid-Trib.

Rev 6:1,2 says, "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow (toxon, plain fabric, i.e., he is a wolf in sheep's clothing); and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

> > the day the mid-tribulation begins at the revealing of the antichrist. Hence, there can be no signs to identify beforehand the first trumpet (?) which is in reality is when the first rapture for wise Christians will take place. And not only that, but it will occur in a year of Jubilee.

I think the first beast, the Antichrist, was revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation. He rules 42 months (Rev. 13:5). Also, it does seem that the Rapture is going to happen in the Jubilee Year. The Rapture will be a time of jubilation.

The second beast, the False Prophet, will be revealed Mid-Trib (Rev. 13:11).

Mat 24:15,16 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Dan 11:31), stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains". (See also Mar 13:14)

That fleeing to the mountains happens Mid-Trib.

Rev. 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (i.e., Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Also see Rev. 12:14.)

> > Therefore using simple math, since August 24, 2016 is the mid-point of the tribulation, then logic dictates the Tribulation began 42 months earlier on/or about February 8 to February 27 in 2013. Correct?

No. I think the Tribulation began 3-13-13, when Pope Francis was elected. 1260 days later is 8-24-16.

(http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html?m1=3&d1=13&y1=2013&type=add&ay=&am=&aw=&ad=1260&rec=)
"From Wednesday, March 13, 2013
"Added 1260 days
"Result: Wednesday, August 24, 2016"
Agape

HIS REPLY, RE: Upcoming Rapture

Thank you for your response. However, in the future, you need not copy and paste entire scriptures to make your point. A reference is all that is necessary if you wish to make a point you believe is supported by scripture. I am well versed in what is written in scripture and if it is not a scripture I am familiar with, I can get my Bible(s) and read the appropriate scripture. In this way it will save you time writing in the future and save me time trying to understand what you are actually saying.

So as best I can determine, here is what you wrote me and what you believe:

You believe scripture supports two raptures. The first rapture probably will occur on June 12, 2016 because this is the next Pentecost and every year when this does not occur, you change the date to the next Pentecost in the future? This event happens at the first trump (the first trumpet judgment) which occurs before the first seal is opened for some unexplained reason 73 days later on August 24, 2016.... the day the mid-tribulation begins at the revealing of the antichrist. Hence, there can be no signs to identify beforehand the first trumpet (?) which is in reality is when the first rapture for wise Christians will take place. And not only that, but it will occur in a year of Jubilee.

Beginning on August 24, 2016 when the antichrist is revealed, the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) will begin their preaching on this very day because both these events will take 42 months (1,260 days) to complete and at the end of this time, to the very day since we are given precise numbers, the two witnesses will be killed. Three days later the two witnesses will be raptured (along with the unwise Christians at the 2nd rapture) when an earthquake occurs. The very same earthquake (the great earthquake) that happens when Christ returns (Zechariah 14) and the very same day the sixth seal is opened since this is when the second rapture will occur. This date will occur sometime between (approximately) February 8, 2020 (1,260 days + 3 days) to February 27 (42 months).

Therefore using simple math, since August 24, 2016 is the mid-point of the tribulation, then logic dictates the Tribulation began 42 months earlier on/or about February 8 to February 27 in 2013. Correct? Now based on this logic, all the punishments in Revelation (Seals, Trumpets, Vials) begin after the mid-point of the Tribulation period so that the Bible does not record any information (events) during the first part of the Tribulation that can be used as visible signs to watch for.

I have removed all the reciting of scriptures from your last e-mail so that I could see what you actually wrote. The results of that effort are at the end of this e-mail and were used, along with logic and math, to try and capture as accurately as possible a summary of what you believe and what you wrote me. Before, I write anything else that is based on things you do not believe and waste both of our precious time (smile), is it possible to confirm what I have summarized from what you have written me to be accurate?

God's blessings

MY REPLY

> > The first rapture probably will occur on June 12, 2016 because this is the next Pentecost and every year when this does not occur, you change the date to the next Pentecost in the future?

No. I have explored other dates for the Rapture, not just Pentecost. However, I started with Pentecost, and am presently thinking the first Rapture will be on Pentecost. The two loaves waved before the Lord on Pentecost just might indicate that there are two fulfillments, one on the downstroke and one on the upstroke.

There was a wave offering on Firstfruits too, and the resurrected Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven on that Day.

1Co 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

He came to indwell believers on Pentecost, the beginning of grape harvest, which agrees with Song of Solomon 2:10f and Isa 18;3f. The grape harvest starts June 1st and ends on Tabernacles. Next Pentecost is Sun. June 12, 2016.

If the Tribulation began when this Pontifex Maximus (who, on Oct 29, 2014, said that God was not divine) was chosen on 3-13-13, Mid-Trib would be on Aug. 24, 2016. The preceding feast is Pentecost.

The trumpet was to be sounded on feast days. The First-trump Rapture could be on Pentecost, and the Last-Trump Rapture on Tabernacles.

1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

> > This event happens at the first trump (the first trumpet judgment) which occurs before the first seal is opened for some unexplained reason 73 days later on August 24, 2016.... the day the mid-tribulation begins at the revealing of the antichrist.

I think the first seal will be opened when the False Prophet is revealed Mid-Trib.

Rev 6:1,2 says, "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow (toxon, plain fabric, i.e., he is a wolf in sheep's clothing); and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

> > the day the mid-tribulation begins at the revealing of the antichrist. Hence, there can be no signs to identify beforehand the first trumpet (?) which is in reality is when the first rapture for wise Christians will take place. And not only that, but it will occur in a year of Jubilee.

I think the first beast, the Antichrist, was revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation. He rules 42 months (Rev. 13:5). Also, it does seem that the Rapture is going to happen in the Jubilee Year. The Rapture will be a time of jubilation.

The second beast, the False Prophet, will be revealed Mid-Trib (Rev. 13:11).

Mat 24:15,16 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Dan 11:31), stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains". (See also Mar 13:14)

That fleeing to the mountains happens Mid-Trib.

Rev. 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (i.e., Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Also see Rev. 12:14.)

> > Therefore using simple math, since August 24, 2016 is the mid-point of the tribulation, then logic dictates the Tribulation began 42 months earlier on/or about February 8 to February 27 in 2013. Correct?

No. I think the Tribulation began 3-13-13, when Pope Francis was elected. 1260 days later is 8-24-16.

(http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html?m1=3&d1=13&y1=2013&type=add&ay=&am=&aw=&ad=1260&rec=)
"From Wednesday, March 13, 2013
"Added 1260 days
"Result: Wednesday, August 24, 2016" Agape

HIS REPLY, Re: Upcoming Rapture

Thank you for taking so much time and effort to write, but my intention is not for you to spend so much time trying to convince me that what you think or believe is the truth. Again I am well versed on the prophecies of the last day. I am simply trying to see what is is you believe as quickly and concisely as possible. And although I am beginning to see the big picture, it is taking far longer than I anticipated when I first wrote you.

After reading your second correspondence, I see you made comments on portions of what I wrote, while making no comments on other portions I wrote. I am going to assume that based on what you wrote, you were correcting the things I wrote that were in error on what you believe and that the things you make no comments on they are in fact what you believe. With that premise I have rewrote what I last sent you with the corrections you pointed out.

On March 13, 2013 a new pope was selected. He is the antichrist and will be in power 1,260 days. This event started the tribulation period countdown that will last 7 years (Daniel's last week) and will end with the return of Christ either on March 13, 2020 (seven years), or March 27, 2020 (Nisan 2) which is 7 Jewish years, or February 5, 2020 (two periods of 1,260 days) or March 6, 2020 (1 period of 1,260 days and 1 period of 1,290 days) or lastly, April 20, 2020 (1 period of 1,260 days and 1 period of 1,335 days). Mid-way through this nominal 7 year period (1,260 days) on August 24, 2016 the antichrist (the pope) will no longer be in power and not only that, the false prophet will be revealed at the same time when he blasphemes God in the Jewish Temple. This will be the very time the first seal is opened and the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) will begin to preach in Jerusalem in sack cloth as well. At this very same time, the false prophet (still unidentified?) will have his army invade Israel so that they can trample on Jerusalem for 42 months (1,260 days). This will also be a time of great distress greater than any time in the past and never to be equaled again not to mention the time of the abomination of desolation.

Furthermore, on August 24, 2016 when the false prophet is revealed, the two witnesses will begin their preaching on this very day because both these events will take 42 months (1,260 days) to complete and at the end of this time, to the very day since we are given precise numbers, the two witnesses will be killed. Three days later the two witnesses will be raptured (along with the unwise Christians at the 2nd rapture) when an earthquake occurs. The very same earthquake (the great earthquake) that happens when Christ returns (Zechariah 14) and the very same day the sixth seal is opened since this is when the second rapture will occur. This date will occur on February 8, 2020 (1,260 days + 3 days) or February 27 (42 months + 3 days) on a day that is not a feast day, nor a Sabbath year, nor a year of Jubilee..

But just before the mid-point of the tribulation, 73 days earlier, God will begin blowing the first of seven trumpets and the wise virgins will be raptured during the first rapture on June 12, 2016 (Pentecost) because this is the closest feast day that occurs before August 24th and God's "wise" people must be spared His wrath. This will occur in a year of Jubilee (since 2016 is a year of Jubilee?) Furthermore, you believe scripture supports two raptures. The first rapture on June 12, 2016 and when or if this event does not occur, you search for the next most likely feast date in the future for the rapture to occur on? Since this event (Rapture) happens at the first trump (the first trumpet judgment) which occurs before the first seal is opened on August 24, 2016.at the revealing of the false prophet, then there can be no signs to identify beforehand the first trumpet which in reality is when the first rapture for wise Christians takes place. The second rapture occurring in February 2020.

Using simple math, since August 24, 2016 is the mid-point of the tribulation, then logic dictates the Tribulation began 1,260 days (and not 42 months) earlier on March 13, 2013. Based on this logic thus far, all the punishments in Revelation (Seals, Trumpets, Vials) begin after the mid-point of the Tribulation period so that the Bible does not record any information (events) during the first part of the Tribulation that can be used as visible signs to verify that we are in the first part of the Tribulation period.

I think this version of what you believe is more accurate since I have corrected those errors you pointed out? Please let me know if I am correct. If there still are errors, would it not be easier, simpler, and faster to just correct what I have written to let me know what it is you currently believe?

I would like to make sure I understand what it is you believe, before I make any observations on these ideas.

When I first wrote you, I asked you if it wouldn't be better to know with certainty when the rapture would take place and not to keep making educated guesses? Thus far, that is what it appears you have been doing is it not?

God's blessings to you as always

MY REPLY

> > After reading your second correspondence, I see you made comments on portions of what I wrote, while making no comments on other portions I wrote. I am going to assume that based on what you wrote, you were correcting the things I wrote that were in error on what you believe and that the things you make no comments on they are in fact what you believe.

That's correct.

> > On March 13, 2013 a new pope was selected. He is the antichrist and will be in power 1,260 days. This event started the tribulation period countdown that will last 7 years

The first half of the Tribulation will be ABOUT 1260 days after it begins, because 30-day months, etc., are estimated time, used to arrive at ballpark figures.

I haven't figured when the Second Advent could take place, because the Great Tribulation is to be shortened or no flesh would be saved, so it will not be exactly 1260 days past Mid-Trib.

It just hit me that Natan's near-death experience may have taken place on Tabernacles because the Last-Trump Rapture, Day of God's Wrath, and Day of the Lord will take place on Tabernacles.

He thought the Gog and Magog War would take place in a few months, and, according to Scripture, that comes at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation, not Mid-Trib. The First-Trump Rapture has not yet taken place, so Mid-Trib is what seems to be in a few months.

I think what he saw was the truth, but when he tells us about it, we need to keep in mind that he had no religious training prior to his near-death experience. Therefore, he had no framework on which to place things that are still future. They may be a bit more spread out than he realizes.

> > This will be the very time the first seal is opened and the two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) will begin to preach in Jerusalem in sack cloth as well. At this very same time, the false prophet (still unidentified?) will have his army invade Israel so that they can trample on Jerusalem for 42 months (1,260 days).

I think the Antichrist and False Prophet are Popes, calling themselves Pontifex Maximus (Rev. 13).

What army? Dan 8:25 says, "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

> > Three days later the two witnesses will be raptured (along with the unwise Christians at the 2nd rapture) when an earthquake occurs. The very same earthquake (the great earthquake) that happens when Christ returns (Zechariah 14) and the very same day the sixth seal is opened since this is when the second rapture will occur. This date will occur on February 8, 2020 (1,260 days + 3 days) or February 27 (42 months + 3 days) on a day that is not a feast day, nor a Sabbath year, nor a year of Jubilee.

I can't figure an exact date, because the Great Tribulation is to be shortened. However, I think the Last-Trump Rapture is likely to take place on Tabernacles. Houses will be destroyed by the earthquake caused by the impact of Satan's asteroid Wormwood, and survivors will be building booths.

> > When I first wrote you, I asked you if it wouldn't be better to know with certainty when the rapture would take place and not to keep making educated guesses? Thus far, that is what it appears you have been doing is it not?

Yes. Agape

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