Pro and Con 1973

Posted 4-7-17

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: BOTH DANIEL AND JESUS STATE IN SCRIPTURE

DANIEL AND JESUS BOTH STATE THAT 'THE GREAT TRIBULATION' UPON ISRAEL PRECEDES THE RAPTURE.......

It is obvious that Daniel 12:1-2 is written in chronological order:

"And there shall be a time of trouble (great tribulation)....And AT THAT TIME your people shall be delivered (resurrected/raptured) , everyone who is found written in The Book (of life). And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (resurrect). Some to everlasting life..."

It is also obvious that the Olivet Discourse of Jesus Christ is written in chronological order :

"For then there will be great tribulation.......And unless those days were shortened ( to ten days according to Rev 2:10 ) no (Jewish ) flesh would be saved (on earth), but for the elect's ( Jewish remanent's) sake those days will be shortened.....For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west , so also will be the coming of the Son of Man be. .....Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those (ten) days ........" (the Scripture goes on to describe the events of the rapture).

In addition to that, the last prophecy of Jesus Christ, just before He was about to be crucified, was about His coming great tribulation judgment upon Israel and NOT about the rapture :

Luke 23:28-31
" Daughters of Jerusalem...For indeed THE DAYS (of tribulation) ARE COMING in which they will say Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed. Then they will say to the mountains : "Fall on us", and to the hills "Cover us" . For if they do these things in the green wood (of the cross) what will be done (to Israel) in the dry (wood of the cross) ?"

According to both Daniel and Jesus the rapture must be preceded by the Lord's great tribulation judgment upon Israel BEFORE the rapture can occur !!!

MY REPLY

Sorry I didn't answer you on April 6, Nisan 10. My heavy window fan slipped off the window sill on the 5th and cut my big toe. I can walk, but it is very painful. I'm staying in bed most of the time while it heals. Hurting my foot is not good for a diabetic. I have to be careful for awhile.

> > According to both Daniel and Jesus the rapture must be preceded by the Lord's great tribulation judgment upon Israel BEFORE the rapture can occur !!!

To me, that is not true. I think the First-Trump Rapture of ITh 4:1617 is Mid-Trib, and the Last-Trump Rapture of ICo 15:51-54 is Post-Trib.

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL STANDS UP MID-TRIB

ITh 4:16-18 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Jud 1:9 says, "Yet MICHAEL the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Michael contends with the devil Mid-Trib, because Moses and Elijah, the two witnesses, return to earth at the time of the Mid-Trib Rapture. That was demonstrated at the Transfiguration. See Mat 17:1-8.

John prophesied of the Mid-Trib Rapture in Rev 4:1. Then, in the last verse of Rev 10, he was told to prophesy again.

The next verses, Rev 11:1-3, say, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE (i.e., in the Mid-Trib Rapture), and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses (i.e., Moses and Elijah), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great Tribulation), clothed in sackcloth."

Dan 12:1 says, "And at that time (i.e., MID-TRIB) shall MICHAEL stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (i.e., Mid-Trib) thy people shall be delivered (malat, escape, leap out, i.e., be raptured), every one that shall be found written in the book."

Rev 12:6-12 shows that the first Rapture takes place Mid-Trib. It says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (i.e., Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great Tribulation). 7 And there was war in heaven: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (arti, just now, i.e., Mid-Trib) IS COME SALVATION (soteria, rescue, deliverance, i.e., the MID-TRIB RAPTURE) and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 THEREFORE REJOICE, YE HEAVENS, AND YE THAT DWELL IN THEM." Agape

MY REPLY TO A POST ON FIVE DOVES

Fay (2 Apr 2017)
"Revelation 4"

> > I would like to bring this chapter to your attention. Many,many Christians believe that Revelations 4 denotes the rapture. Thereby taking the church out of the equation before the 4 horsemen etc. This explains why so many eminent Bible scholars will not acknowledge Nathan's prophecy (not even address it !) and will not acknowledge the pale green horse seen in Tahrir Square, Egypt, in February 2011. It doesn't fit in with their fixed version of Revelation 4 being the "Rapture chapter".

Please fill me in on what "Nathan's prophecy" and the "pale green horse seen in Tahrir Square, Egypt, in February 2011" have to do with the timing of the Raptures.

> > For me the "Rapture Chapter" is Revelation 7:9 where a huge, huge crowd appear in heaven, waving palm branches (denoting the Palm Sunday / Passover season). This happens after a massive earthquake has occurred and the 144,000 are sealed. Perhaps the Rapture happens during the earthquake or just before. As does the sealing of the 144,000.

> > We are not appointed to WRATH. It doesn't say we will not suffer or see tribulation in one form or another.

> > The day of His wrath comes in chapter 6. Not chapter 4. In my opinion, there is absolutely no excuse for Bible scholars to simply ignore the prophecies of young Natan. To not even address it?? This is negligence of the highest order.

Fay! I am shocked to read this. I thought you had a better grasp on the meaning of Rev 4:1 than this. We must go by the Bible, not what Natan thinks. He had no Bible background to help him interpret the many things he saw in a very short period of time. He was trying to figure things out on the fly.

REV 4:1 IS THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE

The time is on Sunday, ten days before the Great Tribulation begins.

Rev 1:9-11 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega".

It looks like the Rapture will take place on a Sunday just before the Great Tribulation starts.

Rev 2:10 says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

SOME OF THE HARLOT CHURCH WILL BE CAST INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION

Rev 2:6 says, "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

The Nicolaitans, followers of the red-robed Nicholas, St. Nick, Satan, who gave gifts to poor children, set up a hierarchy within the church.

Rev 2:22 says, "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their deeds."

Therefore, the setting of Rev 4:1 is just before the Great Tribulation begins.

Rev 4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The First-Trump Rapture of ITh 4:16,17 comes when Michael the archangel comes Mid-Trib.

1Th 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The archangel's name is Michael. Moses and Elijah will come back to Earth at the time of the Mid-Trib Rapture, as revealed in the Transfiguration.

Jud 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

The reason Satan disputed about the body of Moses is because Michael will bring Moses and Elijah back to Earth at the time of the Mid-Trib Rapture. See the account of the Transfiguration in Mt. 17 for a picture of that.

Dan 12:1 says, "And at that time (i.e., Mid-Trib) shall MICHAEL stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture) a time of trouble (i.e., the Great Tribulation), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (i.e., Mid-Trib) thy people shall be delivered (malat, escape, leap out, i.e., be caught up in the Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book."

AT MID-TRIB, THE BIBLE PLAINLY SAYS, "NOW IS COME SALVATION", i.e., THE RAPTURE

Rev 12:6-10 says, "And the woman (i.e., Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (i.e., Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great Tribulation). 7 And there was war in heaven: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (arti, just now, this day) IS COME SALVATION (soteria, rescue, deliverance, i.e., the First-Trump Rapture), and strength, and the kingdom of our God".

LET'S GO BACK TO REV 4:1

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John was first told about this First-Trump Rapture in 4:1. It is Mid-Trib, because Rev 2:22 had just mentioned the coming Great Tribulation. Of some in Thyatira, it said, "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their deeds."

THEN, IN THE LAST VERSE OF REV 10, HE WAS TOLD, "THOU MUST PROPHESY AGAIN"

In the very next verse, the "RISE" represents the First-Trump Rapture. It comes Mid-Trib for Moses and Elijah come Mid-Trib to prophesy 1260 days, the last half of the Tribulation.

There is no earthquake when Moses and Elijah arrive at the Mid-Trib First-Trump Rapture. At this time, some in the church of Thyatira will be cast into "THE GREAT TRIBULATION".

Rev 2:22 says, "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their deeds."

Rev 4:1,2 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Jesus will sit on his throne at the time of the First-Trump Rapture.

Rev 11:1-3 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses (i.e., Moses and Elijah), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

There is no earthquake at the time of the First-Trump Rapture. There is "a great earthquake" when Moses and Elijah are caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture of ICor 15:51-54.

Both Raptures seem to be on feast days, because the trumpet was to be blown on feast days.

THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE

1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Rev 11:12,13 says, "And they (i.e., Moses and Elijah) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." Agape

THE AMBER PLANET SATURN'S NORTH-POLE HEXAGON IS BLUE

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170403.html

Dan_6:27 says of the mighty God, "He delivereth and rescueth, and he worketh signs and wonders in heaven and in earth".

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: I love your Two Raptures view

I just wanted to say that I love your Two Raptures view. You are correct... you may have got the dates a little off, but you are right-on with the two Raptures. I would love to hear back from you.

MY REPLY

Thanks a million for letting me know what you think.

Because my teachers, including Chuck Swindoll (my pastor), Hal Lindsey and Thomas Ice, were totally convinced that there was a Pre-Trib Rapture, I thought so too for a long time. However, I finally realized that not only were there two Raptures, the first one was Mid-Trib.

THERE IS A FIRST TRUMP AND A LAST TRUMP

ITh 4:16,17 and ICo 15:51-54 are not talking about the same Rapture. I Th 4,16,17 is talking about the first Rapture, and no one gets his immortal body then. ICo 15:51-54 is talking about the last Rapture, when we all, including Paul, get our immortal body.

1Co_15:52 says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

"THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN"

Rev 13:5-11 is what finally woke me up. Antichrist is in power when the Rapture takes place.

It says, "And there was given unto him (i.e., Antichrist) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation). 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN (i.e., the wise-virgin saints caught up Mid-Trib). 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints (i.e., the foolish-virgin saints left behind), and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast (i.e., the Satan-possessed False Prophet) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

It is so plain if your mind is not clouded by all those Pre-Trib teachings.

1Th 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

THE ARCHANGEL'S NAME IS MICHAEL

Jud 1:9 says, "Yet MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

DANIEL 12:1 IS CLEAR, THE RAPTURE WILL BE WHEN MICHAEL STANDS UP

Dan 12:1,2 says, "And at that time shall MICHAEL stand up (i.e., Mid-Trib), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

REV 12 SAYS IT, "NOW IS COME SALVATION", I.E., THE MID-TRIB RAPTURE

Rev 12:6-10 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great Tribulation). 7 And there was war in heaven: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (arti, just now) IS COME SALVATION (soteria, rescue, deliverance, i.e., the MID-TRIB RAPTURE)".

This year, many are hung up on a Feast of Trumpets Rapture, because of the sign in Virgo. However, that sign is not exactly on Trumpets. To me, God works things out so things hit on the exact day. His track record is perfect.

Besides that, where were they last year? The sign was right on Trumpets, but I didn't hear them exulting over that fact, and how did Jupiter get into the act?

The Bible only mentions Jupiter three times.

Act_14:12 says, "And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker."

Act_14:13 says, "Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people."

Act_19:35 says, "And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?"

To me, Jupiter doesn't matter. Saturn is our third heaven, paradise.

PAUL'S LIFE AND DEATH EXPERIENCE

Paul seems to have died and gone to Heaven, and then come back to life, when he was stoned at Lystra.

Act 14:19,20 says, "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe."

In 2Co_12:2, Paul said, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

The third heaven is Saturn: (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter, and (3) Saturn.

The throne of Jesus, the only God/man, is there. His September birthstone is the sapphire, which means heaven. Sapphire is from the Sanskrit Sani (Saturn) and priya (dear).

Eze 1:1 says, "...the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God."

Eze 1:26-28 says, "And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (i.e., the only God/man is Jesus) above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber (i.e., Saturn is amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (i.e., Saturn's ring system) round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."

IF THE CHERUBIM ARE PLANETS, WHAT IS THE FLAMING SWORD?

Gen 3:24 says, "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

I think the flaming sword is the asteroid Wormwood that will destroy Babylon (Rev 18:21).

Rev 8:11 says, "And the name of the star (aster) is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

Rev 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Eze 10:1,2 says, "Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels (i.e., orbits), even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight."

Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (i.e., Babylon) and whom hast thou here (i.e., the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (i.e., Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down." Agape

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