Pro and Con 1027

Posted 6-23-03

Incoming email

Re: John 9:1-3
Does this verse say that he sinned before he was born, or is this another one of the catholic changes? Thank you

My reply

I don't know what "the catholic changes" are that you refer to. Would they be differences between the Confraternity Version and the King James Version? They both convey the same message. The minor differences are because different translators were used.

John 9:1-3 in the Confraternity Version says, "as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him."

John 9:1-3 (KJV) says, "as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

The man's blindness was not because of any sin he or his parents committed. This man was blind so that Jesus could demonstrate to the people that he could do the works of God, which included healing a man that had been blind since birth.

The people knew that this man could not see. Neither he, his parents or anyone they knew could bring this man sight. To the people that knew him, this was a hopeless case. Yet, Jesus demonstrated the works of God, doing what was thought to be impossible, giving the blind man sight.

In John 9:4-7 explains how this came about. Jesus said, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

Continuing, John 9:8-11 explains some more. "The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus (Yehoshua, i.e., Y'shua, meaning Yah [short for Yahweh] is Saviour) made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight."

No wonder Mt. 1:21-23 says, "she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."

Isa 7:14-15 says, "the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

I call Heaven a Butter and Honey Star. Not only did Jesus/Immanuel (God with us) partake of the knowledge of Heaven, his planet's color is like butter and honey, or like gold and amber.

Eze. 1:26-28 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their (the terrestrial planets called cherubim's) heads was the likeness of a THRONE (Christ's), as the appearance of a sapphire (meaning dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear) stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Christ) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of AMBER (color of honey), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (Saturn's rings) round about (the equator). As the appearance of the bow (rainbow) that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness (rings) round about" (Saturn).

Saturn's 7 rings are visible when sunlight shines on their ice crystals. Rainbows are also visible when sunlight shines on ice crystals.

Psa. 89:36,37 says, "His seed (David's, i.e., Jesus Christ) shall endure for ever, and HIS THRONE AS THE SUN (a sphere in our Solar System) before me. It (Heaven, Saturn) shall be established for ever as the moon (a sphere in our Solar System), and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah (meaning pause and think of that)."

Job 37:18,21,22 says, "Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ancient heavens? they are strong as a molten mirror....But the light is not visible to all: it shines afar off in the heavens, as that which is from him in the clouds. From the north come the clouds shining like gold: in these (Saturn's golden clouds) great are the glory and honour of the Almighty"

The Almighty is Jesus Christ. In Rev. 1:8, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (first, Lord of the Old Testament) and the ending (last, Lord of the New Testament), saith the Lord, which is (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY." Agape

Looted Iraqi Uranium Found, Report Says

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=4&u=/nm/20030620/ts_nm/iraq_nuclear_dc

6-20-03 - WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Most of the uranium missing from a looted storage facility at Iraq (news - web sites)'s main nuclear site has been accounted for, Science magazine reported on Friday.

It said the International Atomic Energy Agency had found virtually all the missing material from the site at Tuwaitha...

Incoming email

I am looking for the archaeological depiction of the shield of david carried by king jehu while bending to the assyrian king. Please provide me with any pictures of ancient depictions of the shield of david. I am having a lot of difficulty finding these depictions and would greatly appreciate your help. thank you.

My reply

The pictures at the top of this article do not print for me. See if they will for you.

http://www.kehilatariel.org/articles/7_8_98.html
The Star of David, By Barney Kasdan, Messianic Rabbi

...The earliest apparent mention of this symbol is found in the Talmud. In describing the reign of King Solomon, the mention is made of how he had power over demonic forces by the emblem on his ring known as the "Seal of Solomon" (Gittin 68). Although the specific design of this seal is not described in this passage, it is also called the "Shield of David" (Magen David) because according to later tradition this also appeared on King Davidís battle gear. The first concrete evidence in archaeology was found in the city of Sidon. This consisted of a ring with a seal on it in the shape of a six-pointed star, which was dated from the seventh century BCE.... Agape

Incoming email, Re: Firstfruits

From: David Parker
Did you guys see this on a link at 5 Doves? Very interesting point re "going into seclusion" after the sacrifice.

http://www.geocities.com/wakeupnews/Firstfruits.html

My reply

Thanks. I don't remember reading about the "seclusion" before.

I found the following on another file on that site.
http://www.geocities.com/wakeupnews/Last_Week_of_Jesus.html

> Resurrection on 3rd DAY-Saturday (weeklySabbath)
> Day 3 in the grave-Saturday DAY
> Night 3 in the grave-Friday night
> Day 2 in the grave-Friday day
> Night 2 in the grave-Thursday night
> Day 1 in the grave-Thursday day-(High Sabbath)
> Night 1 in the grave-Wednesday night-(High Sabbath)

> (Remember Jesus was in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights and was raised the 3rd DAY)
> (Passover Feast begins after sunset Wednesday)

> Buried before sunset- Wednesday afternoon(Still Preparation Day)(John 19:42)
> Crucified-Wednesday 9:00 to 3:00pm
> Inspection Complete-Wednesday morning ("I find no fault in him")
> Last Supper-Garden of Gethsemane-Tuesday after sunset-(Preparation Day)

I don't think that scheme agrees with Scripture. See what you think.

John 12:1,2,12,13 says, "Jesus SIX DAYS BEFORE THE PASSOVER came to Bethany...There they made him a supper...On the next day much people...Took branches of palm trees and went forth to meet him, and cried Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Passover was Friday, Nisan 14 in 30 AD. Six days BEFORE Friday was Saturday -- (1) Saturday, (2) Palm Sunday, (3) Monday, (4) Tuesday, (5) Wednesday and (6) Thursday.

On the Jewish Wednesday night (our Tuesday night after 6 PM), Jesus was anointed for burial. Mark 14:1 says, "AFTER TWO DAYS was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread." Those two days were Wednesday and Thursday, for the Passover was Friday, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread was Saturday.

Jesus was crucified on Thursday, the preparation day for the Friday Passover. John 19:14,15 says, "It was the preparation of the passover...they cried...crucify him." He was put in the tomb before 6 PM, when Passover began.

Mt. 12:40 says, "as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Notice that it starts with day. To the Jews, any part of a day was counted as a whole day. Therefore the "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day) and Sunday (night).

Luke 24:7 says, "The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and THE THIRD DAY RISE AGAIN." Those three days were (1) Friday, (2) Saturday and (3) Sunday. He arose on Sunday.

Luke 9:22 says that the Son of man would "BE RAISED THE THIRD DAY" (1) Friday, (2) Saturday and (3) Sunday.

Luke 24:21 says, "we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day (Sunday) is THE THIRD DAY SINCE these things were done." He was crucified on Thursday, so the third day since was Sunday -- (1) Friday, (2) Saturday and (3) Sunday.

Literally, Mt. 28:1 says "sabbaths," and there were two Sabbaths right together (1) Friday and (2) Saturday. Friday was the "high sabbath," because it was Passover, a feast, a holy convocation and a day of rest. Saturday was the weekly Sabbath.

I can't see how the Crucifixion could have been on any day other than Thursday, the preparation of the Passover. That was Nisan 13 (April 6 in 30 AD).

It fits all the pertinent scriptures perfectly. Mark 14:2 says, "But they said, NOT ON THE FEAST DAY, lest there be an uproar of the people." Therefore, it was not on Friday, the Passover. The lambs were being killed at the temple between the evenings, between 3 and 5 PM. Jesus died about 3 PM and was buried before 6 PM, maybe around 5 PM. He is our Passover, the Lamb of God who paid the death penalty for those that believe in Him.

When the Jews began to put their lambs in their ovens to roast, Jesus was put in the stone tomb. Agape

Incoming email, Re: AD 30 as the reference point of history

Great stuff, Marilyn. Thank you.
I'll respond so you'll know better where I'm coming from.

> wasn't Jesus the head of the Body of Christ at his birth?

Certainly. But a tough question, I think. What about the believers before He was born? I think of them also as being of the same Body as we are. However, I think your logic is easier to follow than mine. Perhaps we are conditioned in the Church to think in terms of "advents" (Jesus birth and return as the 2 significant events). Even the Gregorian calendar reflects this thinking.

> 2000 years, but it just might not start on May 29, 30 AD, and it might have the same amount of time as the 70th week (added to it)

I have considered that, too. Which side of the 2,000-year age would the 70th Week fall? Obviously, to say that the "time (age) of the Gentiles (Church)" began on Pentecost AD30 is an opinion. But it seems to me a sound one.

> When Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden in BC 4004/4003,

I've done Internet and library research on this, as well as consulting with 2 scholars, and the calculations vary quite a bit. I think God has left this vague for a number of reasons. What is interesting, though, is that most calculations I have found would place this event in the ballparkof what you say above. If the event of the cross is the crossroad/junction of history (about AD30), then I would expect the Fall to have occurred at around 3970 BC (just a difference of 30 years or so). I think of the Fall as the beginning of "time". TIME seems to me to suggest mortality and temporality.

> This way, the Age of the Church would have ended in 1997/1998 AD. Right. By some estimates it could have ended in 1993.

> parable of the unfruitful fig tree ran for the next 4 years
> (1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002)

While I find this very interesting, I don't follow how this gets connected onto the 2000 years. I'm guessing the logic is a bit more involved here.

> seems like the Tribulation should start in 2003. If so, the Pre-Trib Rapture would also come in 2003. We will know soon.

I must admit that it has always been hard for me to accept the doctrine of imminance (sp?), though I understand where we get it from scripture. There seems to be a paradox in this. It seems, at least to literalist interpreters, that some things have to happen before Christ can return. That would seem to keep Him from returning at any moment. But no matter to me anyway. My time is always ready. We can die at any moment.

> from Adam's creation to the birth of Abraham (a Gentile that became a Jew) was 2008 years,

Very possible. But, again, I haven't found total agreement among scholars who spend vast amounts of time calculating these things from the chronologies in the Word. I wasn't trying to pinpoint it exactly. I just extrapolated approximate time frames going backward by 1000's from AD30.

One that really struck me was David, who many think died about 970BC. That would be 1000 years before the cross, with Isaac, the sacrificial promised son, occuring 2,000 years before. So, from promised son to Promised Son was the Age of the Jew.

However, sure, Abraham's and Isaac's lives overlap.It is a general, prophetic picture I'm looking at. Nobody has the exact dates (as far as we know). Maybe you are right. Maybe I am. But I can live with your dates if you are right.

> > From Abraham's birth to the birth of Isaac was 100 years (Gen. 17:17). How can you skip over those years in your figures?

I hope I answered that above.

> > did you mean that from the BIRTH of Isaac to the BIRTH of Jesus was 2000 years?

I couldn't say that. It would certainly be interesting. How about from the day that Abraham took his son up for the sacrifice until the cross being 2,000 years? That one would make me gasp!

In 7K I explain clearly that I am not setting dates. AD2030 seems to me to be the most likely time frame, but I can see it extending as far as 2070 (if the Gentile Age began with the destruction of the Temple). But I think it began in the upper room, 50 days after the resurrection of Christ on the Feast of First Fruits. That is based on prophetic logic, not numbers.

I know I seem to be coming in from left field. And maybe I am. But I hear so many saying that the Church is in the 3rd millennium and I'm thinking, Are you sure? If so, we may have to scrap a lot of our premillennial thinking. But I don't think so.

I'm not in either of the exclusive camps: literalist or figurative interpreters. When I read it, I see both.

Hey, thanks again. You are brilliant with these things. That is so encouraging. Keep looking up. Sincerely, Your Brother in Christ

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

> > > wasn't Jesus the head of the Body of Christ at his birth?

> > Certainly. But a tough question, I think. What about the believers before He was born? I think of them also as being of the same Body as we are.

They are of the same Body as we are now. The Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints became one body at the time of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Yeshua/Jesus.

In Eph. 2:11-16, Paul told the Gentiles, "remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWAIN ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; And that he might RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, having slain the enmity thereby".

During the Age of the Gentiles, we know from Heb. 11:4-7 that Abel, Enoch and Noah were saved by their faith.

During the Age of the Jews, we know from Heb. 11:8-32 that Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and his parents, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David, Samuel and the prophets were saved by their faith.

At the cross, both of these groups became one in the Body of Christ. They now have access to the heavenly city.

Heb. 11:13-16 says, "These all (Abel through Abraham, but not excluding others) died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned (to Earth). But NOW THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

This city is New Jerusalem. The above is why it has the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel and the names of the twelve apostles of Israel on it. Some Old Testament saints (Jews and Gentiles) and New Testament saints (Jews and Gentiles) will be there.

All become one body in Christ, just as Eph. 2:15,16 said, "TO MAKE IN HIMSELF (in the Body of Christ) OF TWAIN (two groups) ONE NEW MAN (one Body of Christ), so making peace; And that he might RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS."

Before the cross, there were Gentile saints and Jewish saints. At the cross, both these groups became Old Testament saints and were joined to New Testament saints, likewise made up of both Gentile and Jewish saints. Ever since the cross, there has been one body, the Body of Christ.

> > Which side of the 2,000-year age would the 70th Week fall? After it. 1Co 10:11 says, "all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples (examples, types): and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS (plural) OF THE world (aionos, AGES) are come."

I think the Age of the Gentiles and the Age of the Church will have a 7-year end-time test, or trial, that will run concurrently with the end of the Age of the Jews, the 70th week of Dan. 9:27. All those left behind at the Pre-Trib Rapture will be part of the 7-year worldwide test. The last part of it will be cut short or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:21,22).

Rev. 3:9-11 says, "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (the Philadelphians, for whom Jesus has no words of condemnation; they have confessed their sins and are ready for the Rapture). Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (hupomone, patient continuance, WAITING), I also will keep thee (the Philadelphians) from the hour (hora, day, hour, instant, season, TIME) OF temptation (peirasmos, PUTTING TO THE TEST, TRIAL), WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY (peirazo, try or TEST) THEM that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly (at the Pre-Trib Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast (the Philadelphians have crowns), that no man take thy crown."

> > I think of the Fall as the beginning of "time". TIME seems to me to suggest mortality and temporality.

I agree. Until Adam sinned, was judged and cast out of the Garden, he could have lived eternally. Man's roughly 7000-year test as mortal and knowing both good and evil started when Adam left the Garden.

> > > parable of the unfruitful fig tree ran for the next 4 years
> > > (1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002)

> > While I find this very interesting, I don't follow how this gets connected onto the 2000 years. I'm guessing the logic is a bit more involved here.

I call these Israel's grace years. The Lord is not willing for any to be lost if by any means they could be brought to accept Yeshua haMashiach. He comes in each of the three years to see if the fig tree (nation, Israel) has any fruit. Not finding any, one more year is added to dig around and dung Israel. If that will bring out her fruit fine; if not, after that she will be cut down. See Luke 18:6-9.

Only when she is sure to be overcome, will she turn to the Lord. When she blows the alarm on the two silver trumpets, the Lord will fight for her. The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea. The fire and tsunami will kill all but 1/6th of Gog's UN army (Eze. 39:2; Zech. 14:2). All Israel will be saved in a day--that day, the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord.

Num 10:9 says, "if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies."

Zech. 14:1-3 says, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh (it's the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium), and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations (i.e., the United Nations) against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle" (i.e., with asteroids cast down from the heavens, Rev. 8:8,10).

Jos 10:11-13 tells about that day of battle. It says, "And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD CAST DOWN GREAT STONES FROM HEAVEN UPON THEM unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

> > I must admit that it has always been hard for me to accept the doctrine of imminance (sp?), though I understand where we get it from scripture.

I don't accept it at all. I don't see where we get it from scripture.

> > One that really struck me was David, who many think died about 970BC.

His reign started in 3063 AH (BC 980) and ruled 40 years, so he would have died in BC 940.

Isaac was born in 2108 AH (BC 1935), if that would be of any help in your figuring. Agape

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