Pro and Con 1042

Posted 8-5-03

Saddam's gold discovered in truck

By Pamela Hess
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030804-022903-7609r

HILLAH, Iraq (near Babylon), Aug. 4 (UPI) -- A routine Iraqi traffic stop has turned up what may be $90 million in gold bars in this town just over 50 miles south of Baghdad....

An Iraqi police officer stopped an oil tanker truck on the road in Hillah July 27, part of a crack down on black-market oil. There was a problem with the license plates, and the registration didn't match. The truck was taken to the impound lot.

Three days later, a security director for the governor of Hillah took a call. If he would let the tanker truck go, he would get $15 million Iraqi dinars. The man refused. The caller offered $30 million dinars, about $30,000 U.S. dollars. The man, who earns no more than $500 a month, refused again.

But he got curious.

He went out to the truck and opened the back. Inside, stacked three feet high and 20 feet deep were gleaming gold bars.

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Wow! Check this out! Ariel Sharon turns out to be a great chess player! The bad guys are checkmated, and now, even Arafat is not immune any more from Israeli bullets!

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0803/chafets_2003_08_05.php3

My reply

Thanks. I agree. That's a good article.

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>> Why did you add 50 days to the 720000?

>Because I took the date of the resurrection to start from (calculating was easier that way), as you know the Holy Spirit was poured out into the world 50 days after resurrection day, this marked the start of church age and the spreading of the gospel.

Wouldn't that subtract 50 days instead of add it? It seems that you are counting the 50 days twice, once in the 720000 and again in the extra 50.

> > I believe there is a reason for the 2 witnesses to go out into the world and prophecize during the tribulation period. I think the 1260 day tribulation period is a time of harvest where every individual could be raptured according to the state of his heart and his believes.
> > I don't believe we can be raptured before God sets up His "fortress" in the Holy mountains:
> > Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it

> > Joel 2:1 "Sound the Shofar in Zion and sound the alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the Land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand". (32) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered [worldwide rapture of believers Rev 7:9]: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant [144,000 elected] whom the LORD shall call; Rev 7:4.

The first day of Christ's millennial kingdom is the Day of God's Wrath. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath. It comes before noon, when the asteroids impact Earth. The mountain burning with fire of Rev. 8:8 will fall in the Mediterranean Sea.

Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid (i.e., be caught up to Heaven) IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."

That Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath is for the 144,000 Israelites that can be numbered (i.e., are part of the Bride group) and that great multitude that no man can number (other Tribulation saints) of Rev. 7:9,14. The 144,000 Bride saints "sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and (at the Pre-Wrath Rapture) no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

However, there is another group of Bride saints caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture before the Tribulation starts. In Rev. 5:9, these Bride saints are in Heaven. They sing "a NEW SONG , saying, Thou (Christ) art worthy to take the book (Title Deed to Earth), and to open the seals (7, i.e., bringing the Tribulation) thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION."

These Bride saints are the ones that are accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS (in the future) and to stand before the Son of man" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

Isa. 57:1 tells us about the Bride group. It says, "The righteous (i.e., the Bride group) perisheth (abad, ESCAPES, i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME." This Rapture is BEFORE THE EVIL TRIBULATION COMES.

The mostly Gentile Bride saints will be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Israelite Bride saints will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Both sing the NEW SONG. No one else can sing it (Rev. 14:3).

> > The Lord told us that Cyrus issued the decree he was talking about, not Nehemiah. In Isa 44:28, we see that the LORD "saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."

> Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

> As you can see there is no reference to the reconstruction of the temple, this is what characterizes Nehemiah's decree, it was meant to reconstruct the walls, gates and street. It seems to support the dating derrived from Luke 3:1 where it is said that Jesus started his ministry "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar."

Isa. 44:28 says, "Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: EVEN SAYING TO JERUSALEM, THOU SHALT BE BUILT." In II Chron:22, we find out that this was in the first year of Cyrus.

Tiberius was Co-Rex in 12 AD. From that time on, he was the sole ruler over "Israel." Augustus concerned himself with other parts of his empire. Tiberius became Sole-Rex in 14 AD. His 15th year of rule was 26 AD. Jesus was baptized in 26 AD c. Tishri 1, his birthday. He was crucified on April 6 (Nisan 13) in 30 AD.

> To tell you the truth really I don't know if the dates are correct, I think no one knows for sure. I think that this kind of prophetic evidence can only be used to support other evidence, but it is not strong enough to serve as a fundamental basis for a theory.

What other evidence? What is prophecy for? We have all the clues. In Mark 13:23, Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." We shouldn't sluff off prophetic evidence. That's what it is for. If we sluffed it off, we would be putting blinders on our eyes. We would have eyes that can't see.

Isa. 28:9-13 tells us why God scattered the clues throughout the Bible. It says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (i.e., when the church is old, like now). For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear (at First Advent). But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

We have to search the entire Bible for clues. They can be anywhere. In Israel's past history, they played out little skits to help us understand prophecy. Nothing can be laid aside. Agape

My reply to his reply

My comments are marked ***.

***AD 32 for the Crucifixion doesn't fit. Be sure you are not picking that because 720,000 days brings you to Sept. 16, 2003 (Tue., Elul 19, 5763). Of what significance is Elul 19?

***I researched the date of the Crucifixion thoroughly at the library at BIOLA (Bible Institute of Los Angeles), La Mirada campus. I even read old handwritten MSS from the 1700s. I made a spreadsheet chart of the years between BC 20 and 30 AD. Only one set of figures fit the clues correctly.

***Why start at BC 20/19? Because Herod's temple was begun then. John 2:20 says, "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" (John 2:20). The 46th year was 27 AD, the first Passover of Jesus' ministry. Therefore, Jesus was baptized near Tishri 1, his birthday, in 26 AD.

***26 AD was the 15th year of Tiberius (Luke 3:1). He began to rule over Palestine in 12 AD. He was Co-Rex with Augustus until 14 AD, when Augustus died, but Tiberius was the sole ruler over Palestine from 12 AD on.

***Here are two coins. The first was issued in 12/13 AD and depicts Tiberius as Augustus' designated heir. The second one was issued in 13,14 AD. It depicts the Co-Rex reign of Augustus and Tiberius.

***Tiberius's 15th year was 26 AD, when Jesus was baptized near his 30th birthday (Luke 3:23). Thus, he was born in BC 5. The first Passover of his ministry was 27 AD, the 46th year since construction started on Herod's temple. As far as I can see, those dates are locked in tight. This places the 4th Passover of Jesus' ministry in 30 AD, the year of the Crucifixion.

***An AD 32 Crucifixion doesn't work, because the temple was begun in BC 20/19. God gave us all the clues we need to figure that 30 AD was the year of the Crucifixion. It was on Nisan 13 (April 6), the preparation of the Passover.

***John 19:14,15 says, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him."

> > The first day of Christ's millennial kingdom is the Day of God's Wrath. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath. It comes before noon, when the asteroids impact Earth. The mountain burning with fire of Rev. 8:8 will fall in the Mediterranean Sea.

> Uhm.., I live on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in Spain.

***Good reason to be sure to confess sins as per I John 1:9 so as to be counted as a righteous wise virgin with enough oil of the Holy Spirit to go with the Bridegroom when he comes to catch up his Bride before the Tribulation begins.

> > Zeph 2:5 “O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.”

> I think we have to put this verse into the correct time frame.

***Zeph 2:3 shows that the time frame of v. 5 is "in the day of the LORD'S anger." That Day of God's Wrath is the first day of the millennial reign of Christ. Like Solomon, he will purge his kingdom as soon as he receives it. Rev. 11:15-19 describes that day. All the saints are in Heaven receiving their rewards when the Wrath of God hits the unbelievers on Earth.

***Rev. 11:19 says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

***In the Ark were the 2 stone tablets. On each was written 5 commandments. Because they have been broken, the stone asteroids will be broken on Earth, as when Moses broke the stone tablets when the Israelites worshipped the golden calf. The mountain sized asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean. The asteroid of Rev. 8:10 will destroy Babylon on the Day of God's Wrath, the end of the shortened Tribulation.

> You probably agree that the Temple of God is setup (only) in the mountains at the beginning of the tribulations:

***I think Rev. 11:1-3 is talking about the beginning of the first half of the Tribulation. It says, "there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE (egeiro, to lift or raise up, i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture), and MEASURE THE TEMPLE of God (the Bride saints, the temple of the Holy Spirit, can be measured, numbered), and the altar, and them that worship therein. But THE COURT which is without the temple leave out, and MEASURE IT NOT; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

***Rev. 21:9-16 sheds some more light on measuring, or numbering, the Bride of Christ. It says, "COME HITHER(Christ's words at the Rapture, Rev. 4:1), I will shew thee the BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. And he CARRIED ME AWAY IN THE SPIRIT (as in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:10) to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the TWELVE TRIBES of the children of Israel: On the east twelve gates; on the north three gates; on the south twelve gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the TWELVE APOSTLES of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden REED TO MEASURE THE CITY, and THE GATES thereof, AND THE WALL thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and HE MEASURED THE CITY WITH THE REED, TWELVE THOUSAND FURLONGS. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."

It is a sphere, just as Heaven is represented by the cube called the Holy of Holies. The length, breadth, and height are equal for a ball. Those dimensions are the same for the box the ball fits into.

> > Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (15) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Rev. 11:1, 2 "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple (mount) leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months [42x30=1260days]"

So this means they shall trod the city (Jerusalem) during 1260 days after the abomination is setup and people have fled to the mountains. This must place Zephaniah’s verse (there shall be no inhabitant) towards the end of the tribulation during the time of Judgement (2005-2007: 7 trumpets).

***Zech. 14:2 is talking about the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. Rev. 11:1,2 is talking about the Rapture at the beginning of the Tribulation. At the end of the first 1260 days, Mid-Trib, the False Prophet will set up the image, the abomination of desolation.

> > The 144,000 saints are Jewish people that have lived and died over the centuries, they are not alive when the tribulation starts but they have been previously martyred:

Look, this happens before the 6th seal (the fall of the daughter of Babylon; 31st August 2003).

***Rev. 7:1-4 shows that the 144,000 are on Earth. It says, "I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the EARTH and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the EARTH, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

The first seal, let alone the 6th, cannot be broken until the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth is given to Christ after the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 5:1-8).

> > These Bride saints are the ones that are accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS (in the future) and to stand before the Son of man" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

> I agree

> > Isa. 57:1 tells us about the Bride group. It says, "The righteous (i.e., the Bride group) perisheth (abad, ESCAPES, i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME." This Rapture is BEFORE THE EVIL TRIBULATION COMES.

> I agree, and I hope that for people’s sake that the rapture is also during the tribulation.

***There are two trumps of God, a first trump in I Thess. 4:16 and a "last trump" in I Cor. 15:51,52. The type is in Nu. 10:1-4. It says, " the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

Compare this with the names on the gates and walls of New Jerusalem. The 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles are the 24 elders. They are caught up at the first trump and are crowned and seated on their thrones in Rev. 4:4.

> Notice: Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

> It seems that the only people who are left on the earth are the people who don’t repent. The people who do repent are either “raptured” or murdered by the antichrist (which is a sort of a rapture as well; “..he who dies in His name won’t taste death”). I like to think that the first option will happen.

> Since the tribulation is compared with the “harvest of the world” why shouldn’t the harvest last all season long? Just like picking tomatoes in a greenhouse, all tomatoes are not ripe at ones; it requires a whole season of “picking”.

***The trump of God sounds twice, not over and over all season.

> To tell you the truth really I don't know if the dates are correct, I think no one knows for sure. I think that this kind of prophetic evidence can only be used to support other evidence, but it is not strong enough to serve as a fundamental basis for a theory.

>> What other evidence? What is prophecy for? We have all the clues. In Mark 13:23, Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." We shouldn't sluff off prophetic evidence. That's what it is for. If we sluffed it off, we would be putting blinders on our eyes. We would have eyes that can't see.

> First of there is a lot of evidence that all biblical predictions are based on a 360 day/year calendar. So this means that you have to proof that Cyrus decree was made in 447BC, this seems way of from what is generally accepted (539BC). Plus, some sources claim that the reign of Tiberius started in 14AD, there obviously is no hard evidence around to prove anything. That’s why to me this can only be used as supportive evidence for other theories.

***Are coins hard enough evidence for you? Would the profile of Tiberius be on the coins of 12 AD if he was not ruling then?

***All Biblical predictions are not based on a 360 day/year calendar. When the Israelites were taken to Babylon for 70 years, those were 70 literal years, not 360-day years.

***We use the 30-day average month for figuring interest today. We call 90 days 3 months. That doesn't mean that we actually have a 360-day year. In Gen. 1:14, "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and LET THEM BE FOR SIGNS, AND FOR SEASONS, AND FOR DAYS, AND YEARS." The rotation of the Earth sets our days. The orbit of Earth around the Sun sets our years. Within our lifetime, they are regular, and we can't change them. God can, but we can't.

***The Bible is trustworthy. To me, it is hard evidence. It is God's Word. The decree in the first year of Cyrus was in BC 454. It was exactly 483 years from that decree to the Crucifixion (483 - BC 454 + 1[no zero year] = 30 AD).

Martin Anstey found the 82-year mistake in the era of the Persian kings in the Canon of Ptolemy. Claudius Ptolemy (c. 70 - 161 AD) listed the Persian kings and the number of years that each reigned. Not living in those days, he had to go by any records he could find. He was off by 82 years. Instead of 205 years, he should have had 123. The difference is 82 years, and BC 536 - 82 = BC 454. Ptolemy was also wrong with his system of astronomy. He said that Earth was stationary and the center of the universe. He said that the stars and planets revolved around Earth. We know better than to go by that today. It is better to trust the Bible than Ptolemy's Canon too.

> ." -Neh. 2:1-5 NKJV 3. and said to the king, "May the king live forever! Why should my face not be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' tombs, lies waste, and its gates are burned with fire?" 4. Then the king said to me, "What do you request?" So I prayed to the God of heaven. 5. And I said to the king, "If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers' tombs, that I may rebuild it

***The first command to rebuild the city was given by Cyrus. Along the way, it got delayed, but that doesn't change the first time the command was given. Isa. 44:28 is God's words. He "saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."

> > We have to search the entire Bible for clues. They can be anywhere. In Israel's past history, they played out little skits to help us understand prophecy. Nothing can be laid aside.

> I agree, but there is a danger when science becomes more important then the message of the Gospel itself “Bless those who didn’t see but still believe”. I find that many people who run these prophecy websites are more interested to unravel the mystery of God and built their tower of Babel and looking out for their own glory.

***Those people have probably already accepted Christ and must go on from there. Heb. 6:1 says, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God."

> For me the only hard evidence is:

> The pope confirmed a covenant with many (against Israel) on March 22, 2000

22March2000+1260 days is the 6th day of the 6th month of the 6th year in cycle 303

> Mars comes historically close to earth on the 27th (7 days before).

> The 6 planet menorah alignment was on the same day that the barley became abib in Jerusalem => 5th May 2000 + 1260 days = 17th Oct 2003 Hoshannah Rabbah: culminating the observation of the Days of Awe as the day of the final sealing of judgment, which began on Rosh Hashanah

> The middle of the week (Sukkoth week) is Oct15th ; Oct15th+ (1290-1335) = Aug31st

Conclusion: 27th+3 ½ days => 31st + 3 ½ days => 3rd Sept.

> There is a (Jewish) candidate pope that will reach the age of 77 on the Sept17th. On Sept16th 720000 days have passed since Monday 2nd June 32AD.

> [Believe it or not:] 12 years ago I had a strong dream (night vision) where I felt I was poisoned and running from a shadow that was hunting me, I tried to hide in the rocks but couldn’t fit in. I fell to the ground as I felt the shadow approaching me, I noticed I was in my bedroom and I turned around to reach for my bible and for the next few seconds I was staring into this bright light. The rock symbolism is used more times in the bible, but specifically for the 6th seal.

***I sure hope you are in Heaven before the first seal is broken. We will see Jesus accept the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth after the Pre-Trib Rapture. The seals seem to be rather evenly spaced until we get to the 6th. The time between the 6th and 7th is shortened. The 6th is at the end of this age, and the 7th is the next day, the first day of the Millennium. The 7 trumpet judgments tumble out of the 7th seal.

> I know the interpretation of the dates and information is subjective. The only thing I have been trying to do is to squeeze this with in with biblical prophecies.

***Start with the Bible prophecies and see what secular things fit them.

In 44 AD, Herod Agrippa died, and Paul visited Jerusalem. That was 14 years after his conversion (Gal. 2:1). So Paul met Christ on the road to Damascus in 30 AD, the year of the Crucifixion. That's hard evidence. Coins confirm that Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD. Agape

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