Pro and Con 1046

Posted 8-14-03

Incoming email, Re: Question

Marilyn, greetings in the Name of the Lord. Are the two witnesses in the world now ,or does God send them the momemt that the tribualtion begins on earth? Who are they ? Thank you for your answer.

My reply

I don't think the two witnesses are here now. Rev. 11:3 says, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." Those 1260 days are the first half of the Tribulation.

I Thess. 4:14 says, "them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD (i.e., Jesus Christ, YHWH of hosts, Isa. 44:6) bring with him." Maybe the two witnesses will come with that group returning with Christ at the Pre-Trib Rapture. After those that sleep in Jesus get their resurrection bodies, we will "be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (4:17). The two witnesses could stay on earth at that time. We'll have to wait and see if that's the way it plays out, but that seems like a possible scenario.

At the Rapture, Jesus will say "Come up hither" to us (Rev. 4:1). Three and a half days after Moses and Elijah are killed by the Satan-possessed False Prophet, they will be resurrected and hear "Come up hither" too (Rev. 11:12).

I think the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. They obviously prophesy in Israel. They are killed in Jerusalem "where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8). Both Moses and Elijah are Israelites. Would the Jews listen to a Gentile like Enoch?

Rev. 11:4 says of the two witnesses, "These are the TWO OLIVE TREES, and the two candlesticks standing before THE GOD OF THE EARTH." Jesus Christ is "the God of the earth." Both Moses and Elijah stood before Christ at the Transfiguration.

Mark 9:2-4 says, "after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And THERE APPEARED UNTO THEM ELIAS WITH MOSES: and they were talking with Jesus."

This was foretold in Zech. 4:11-14. It says, "What are these two OLIVE TREES upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two OLIVE BRANCHES which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil (symbol of the Holy Spirit) out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, THESE ARE THE TWO ANOINTED ONES, THAT STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH."

Jesus Christ is not only the God of the earth. Gen. 24:3 says, "I will make thee swear by THE LORD (YHWH), THE GOD OF HEAVEN, AND THE GOD OF THE EARTH, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell".

Dan. 2:44 says, "in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Mal. 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you ELIJAH the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD."

Isa. 54:5 says, "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME; and thy REDEEMER the Holy One of Israel; THE GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH SHALL BE BE CALLED."

Psa. 97:5 says, "The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH."

Micah 4:13 says, "Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH" (i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ).

II Cor. 5:19 says, "GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them."

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his REDEEMER the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH the King of Israel), and I am the last (YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer); and beside me there is no God."

In Rev. 1:8, Jesus told us exactly who he is. He said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (YHWH the King of Israel) and the ending (YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer), saith the Lord, which is (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY."

In Rev. 22:13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last....I am the root (YHWH the King of Israel) and the offspring of David (YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ), and the bright and morning star" (his abode is on a planet that probably will be a bright and morning star at the time of the Rapture).

Jesus told the overcomer of the church of Thyatira, "I will give him the morning star (i.e., Heaven)" and added, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Rev. 2:28,29).

Jesus had two complete natures. Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

No wonder Jesus said, "I and my Father are ONE" (John 10:30). I Cor. 15:47 says, "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy; the second man (the second Adam, i.e., Jesus Christ) IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN." Agape

Babylon, Temple of Ninmakh (top) and Saddam's palace (bottom)

Archaeological Diggings

...All that is left of the Tower of Babel is the LOWEST STAGE, surrounded by the excavation trenches that have now filled with water. Alexander the Great demolished the ancient structure in preparation for rebuilding the tower. In the distance are mounds of rubble removed by his soldiers. But Alexander died before he was able to complete the project and the foundations were covered by sand and rubble.

My comment

Zech 5:11 fits this: "And he said unto me, To build it (the world church) an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was, Gen. 11:2): and it shall be established, and set there upon her OWN BASE."

From 5 Doves site

Re: Paul Wilson (11 Aug 2003)
"hail stone weight in Revelation"

My reply

> > if baseball sized hail can crack a windshield and destroy the roof of a convertable (seen in local news) imagine the damage these things will cause!!!!

I think will be even worse than the damage that would be done by a hail of ice the size of the 100 lb. blocks we once used in ice boxes.

According to my understanding, this will be a hail of literal stones, not ice. Let's look at a few scriptures concerning the phenomenon that will bring destruction on the first day of Christ's millennial reign, the Day of God's Wrath, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Dan. 2:45 says, "Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone (eben, rock, i.e., asteroid) was cut out of the mountain (probably a larger asteroid formed when Satan's planet Rahab split into pieces) without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

Rev. 8:7-11 says, "The first angel sounded, and there followed HAIL AND FIRE (i.e., flaming stones) mingled with blood, and THEY WERE CAST UPON THE EARTH: and THE THIRD PART OF TREES WAS BURNT UP, and ALL GREEN GRASS WAS BURNT UP (ice would not start these wild fires). And the second angel sounded, and as it were A GREAT MOUNTAIN BURNING WITH FIRE was cast into the sea (this flaming asteroid will impact the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5): and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and THERE FELL A GREAT STAR (aster, star, asteroid or meteor) FROM HEAVEN, BURNING as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star (aster) is called Wormwood" (which means bitterness).

Rev. 11:19 says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (two stone tablets with commandments written on them are in it): and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an EARTHQUAKE, AND GREAT HAIL." Because the Ten Commandments were broken, two stones will be dumped out on the unbelievers left on Earth after the second Rapture catches up all saints.

Of that day, Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and in the FIRE OF MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and the mountains (two asteroids) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

Rev. 16:21 says, "And there fell upon men a GREAT HAIL OUT OF HEAVEN, every STONE about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

I figure "THE CURSE (that is twice as long as wide) THAT GOETH FORTH (orbits) OVER THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH" of Zech. 5:1-4 is a binary asteroid like Toutatis. When the two pieces break apart, probably at the Roche Limit 11,000 miles out, the smaller rocks are released. All pieces burst into flame when they hit the Earth's atmosphere. The smoke of their burning causes the sun to become "black as sackcloth of hair" (Rev. 6:12).

Zech. 5:4 says, "I will bring it (the asteroid) forth, saith the LORD of hosts (the Redeemer, Christ, Isa. 44:6), and it shall enter into the house (at Babylon) of the thief (like Judas Iscariot, the False Prophet is a thief), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Beast, the Tribulation Pope that claims infallibility): and it (the asteroid) shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."

Rev. 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up A STONE LIKE A GREAT MILLSTONE (literal rock), and cast it into the sea (John is on Patmos, in the Mediterranean), saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Isa. 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." The asteroids seem to come in at an oblique angle, causing this globe to turn upside down before it starts to regain its equilibrium as it rocks.

Amos 8:9 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at NOON, and I will darken the earth in the clear day."

Zeph. 2:3-5 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (i.e., caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) in the day of the LORD's anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast". Agape

Incoming email, Re: A few questions and comments

I've not written in quite a long time, but still check in on your website every day. I'm very glad you're feeling better, as we all miss you terribly when you've not posted anything for more than a day or two. I pray the Lord ministers continued strength and healing to both you and Ed.

First a request I guess... would you mind terribly keeping your Pro/Con links at the very top of your webpage. It's rather a nuisance to have to scroll past those same old pictures every time we want to check and see if you've posted something new. The 'Trumpets' picture HAS been on the top for quite a long time. Are you quite attached to it?? ;-)

Now a comment: I don't know exactly how many years I've been visiting your site, but it seems to me that when I started, the Pro-Cons were still numbered in double-digits. After all this time, I find that much of the time you 'come across' as being very dogmatic about a particular pint of view. Consider your statement in ProCon 1043:

> There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture, before the Tribulation, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture, just before God's Wrath hits Earth at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. The wise virgins will be in Heaven before the Tribulation. The foolish virgins will be on Earth during the Tribulation, but will be raptured just before God's Wrath hits this planet.

I think many of us would be more confortable if you'd say "I believe there are two Raptures..." or "It seems to me as though there may be two Raptures..." You have frequently denied being a prophet, yet you indulge heavily in dogmatic prophetic interpretation, even though scripture is not to be of any 'private interpretation'.

I'm certainly not wanting to be of a critical spirit with regard to this matter, but my spirit 'cringes' when you say things in this manner. I love the work you've done, and have been much blessed by your diligence, faithfulness, and wisdom.

Another issue on which I'd like to weigh in, is with regard to the length of a generation. You said, late in the same ProCon:

> It seems to be 40 years. In 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees that all these things would come upon that generation. They did, in 70 AD.

And at the beginning of that ProCon:

> I can't imagine the Great Tribulation being only 7 months long when Dan. 9:27 talks about 7 years. In that case, instead of 2007/2008, maybe we need to consider the next Jewish Leap Year, 5771 (our 2010/2011) as the beginning of the millennial kingdom of Christ. 5771 starts Sept. 9, 2010. The year 2010 - 1967 = 43 years for the last generation. Is that possible?

Yes. In Mt. 1:17, there are 42 generations from Abraham to Christ. BC 2035 - BC 5 = 2030 years. 2030 divided by 42 generations = 48.33 for one generation. 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33, so the year 5771 (2009/2010) would still be within one possible generation.

I've always been facinated by the concept of the Jubilee. What if a generation is anything up to 50 years? Note that Jesus didn't tell the Pharisees that all these things would occur AT the end of that generation. Simply that they would be fulfilled WITHIN that generation. By locking in on the number 40, we may be, again, too dogmatic on a concept, hindering us in our pursuit of the truth. If the clock for Israel began ticking in 1967, it's quite possible that the Ultimate Jubilee would be in the year 2017. Backing up from there, we could have a ways to go yet. Things ARE deteriorating rapidly, and it's difficult to imagine that things could last another 6 or 7 years BEFORE the Tribulation, but then, it seems to me we thought that back in '88, '93, '98, 2000, etc.

In this day and age, many have grown used to the concept of using public forums on the Internet. Your ProCon series predates most of what's out there, and informed discussion of prophetic issues is, in my opinion, more important than any of the others. Keep it up!

[As an aside, I am humbled that the rather crude graphic (by today's standards) that I designed still adorns the top of your webpage.] The Lord Bless You.

My reply

Good to hear from you. Ed and I are better. He made it to Cardiac Rehab once last week. Even as weak as he is, we notice the difference for the good the next day after the exercise. These bodies of ours were made for moving.

Thanks for your suggestions. I put the Recent Updates nearer the top, but put some things above it so people won't think they have already seen them and click on the latest Pro and Con first. The logo is fine unless you can think of a better one.

> > You have frequently denied being a prophet, yet you indulge heavily in dogmatic prophetic interpretation, even though scripture is not to be of any 'private interpretation'.

When he was dean of Talbot Seminary, Dr. Charles Fineberg said that "private interpretation" did not mean that a single person could not interpret Scripture, but that any part has to be interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture. We have to compare Scripture with Scripture.

I'm sorry if I forget to put in "I think," "I believe" and such often enough. I try. As I am developing an answer to a certain question, those words are not formost on my mind. I am thinking of Scripture.

Everything that is not Scripture is my own opinion of what Scripture means. What I feel sure of comes from many years of study, but it is still my opinion. And, I'm not always right. I am still learning.

> > I've always been facinated by the concept of the Jubilee. What if a generation is anything up to 50 years?

Well, let's see. According to Websters Unabridged, Second Edition, the definition of a generation is "the period of time (about thirty years) between the birth of one generation and that of another."

A woman having children at 50 is not the norm. That is why 40 years makes so much sense to me. Something about the Israelites wandering 40 years in the wilderness while one generation died off is repeated over and over. Mt. 23:36's "All these things shall come upon this generation" being 40 years, from 30 to 70 AD, being so close to the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34 reinforces a 40-year generation too.

Also, Eze. 4:6 tells us that the iniquity of Judah was to be 40 years. That fits 30 to 70 AD.

We also have Mt. 1:17. It says, "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."

There are 42 generations from Abraham to Christ. BC 2035 - BC 5 = 2030 years. 2030 divided by 42 generations = 48.33 for one generation. That is near your 50 years. 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33, so the Leap Year 5771 (2009/2010) would still be within one possible generation.

Uh oh, I just now remembered that man's lifetime was longer in Abraham's day. Before him, the lifetime was cut in the days of Noah. By King David's time, it was about like ours. He died when he was 70.

Let's consider from David to Christ, 28 generations from BC 1010 to BC 5, or 1005 years. 1005 divided by 28 = 35.9 years for a generation.

Also, let's consider the last section of Mt. 1:17. From the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are 14 generations. That would be the 70-year captivity plus the 483 years of Dan. 9:25, or 553 years less 33.5 to go back from the Crucifixion to Jesus' birth. That would be 519.5 years. 519.5 divided by 14 = 37.1 years for a generation.

To me, 40 years for a generation seems more likely than 50, but it could mean that all these things would come to pass during the lifetime of the last generation.

From Aug. 9, 2003, to Sept. 13, 2007, is 1496 days. The first half of the Tribulation is 1260 days. 1496 - 1260 = 236 days for the Great Tribulation. That's 7.9 months, pretty short.

If the Rapture would take place on the upcoming Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5764 (Sept. 27, 2003), the number of days to Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) would be 1447 days. 1447 - 1260 = 187 days, or 6.2 months for the Great Tribulation. We seem to be running awefully short of time.

> > it's difficult to imagine that things could last another 6 or 7 years BEFORE the Tribulation, but then, it seems to me we thought that back in '88, '93, '98, 2000, etc.

From 1968 on, I thought the Pre-Trib Rapture would be in 1998, or at the latest 2001, 7 years before Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). Here it is 2003 and it hasn't happened yet.

In Mark 13:23, two days before the Crucifixion, Jesus said, "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." What are we missing?

I know why there is extra space, the church of Thyatira is given space to repent (Rev. 2:21), but I don't know how large a space it will be, or how short the Great Tribulation can possibly be.

Whatever that may be, we are all tested to see if we will hang on until the end and be overcomers. Just as the espousal period was usually a year to make sure the bride was not pregnant, our waiting period is long enough for us to prove what we are really made of.

Hab 2:3-5 says, "the vision is yet for an appointed time (mowed, set solemn feast, assembly convened for a specific purpose, fixed time), but at the end (qets, utmost border) it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry (mahahh, delay, linger, be reluctant), wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry (achar, be late). Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him (probably the Tribulation Pope, the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10): but the just shall live by his faith (Christianity). Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home (the present Pope has traveled more than any other Pope), who enlargeth his desire as hell (Satan), and is as death (the False Prophet, Rev. 6:8), and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations (the UN), and heapeth unto him all people" (the UR, United Religions).

God told Abraham to come out of UR, and in Rev. 18:4, Christ says to "Come out of her (Babylon, headquarters for the UN and UR), my people." I think this is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Continuing in Habakkuk, v. 6 says, "Shall not all these take up a parable against him (the Beast), and a taunting proverb against him (probably the False Prophet), and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! (the False Prophet is a thief, Zech. 5:4) HOW LONG? and to him (Satan) that ladeth himself with thick clay!" Satan inhabits the body of clay, the False Prophet. That's why in Rev. 13:11, he speaks like a dragon. I can't answer exactly "HOW LONG." It will be something less than 1260 days.

Heb 10:35-37 says, "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For YE HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE (hupomone, patient enduring), that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. FOR YET A LITTLE (mikron, small space of time) WHILE, AND HE (Christ) THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY (chronizo, linger, delay)."

"HOW LONG?" seems to be "FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE." A LITTLE while sounds good to me. I can wait, whatever time it takes, but the sooner the better.

> > If the clock for Israel began ticking in 1967, it's quite possible that the Ultimate Jubilee would be in the year 2017.

The land was to be returned to its previous owner in the year of Jubilee. It seems to me that the Jubilee would start at the Second Advent. Daniel will stand in his lot in Israel at the end of the 1335 days (Dan. 12:13).

As for 1967, I can't see how the starting point could be anything else. Israel was 19 years old. She couldn't have been "apalos," young, when she was 20.

Thanks for your kind words and for volunteering to help me with my web site. I couldn't have made the Pro and Con Chart with all the numbers on it without your setting it up in the first place, and when it got messed up after that, you caught it and straightened the chart out again. I barely knew enough HTML to post my files. I knew nothing whatsoever about charts. May the Lord bless you for your help. Agape

Incoming email, Re: significant even if not laid on the temple Mount

Corner-Stone Ceremony To Be Held

Arutz Sheva - The police grudgingly agreed to a Court-requested compromise, and the ceremony will begin in Jerusalem's Givat HaMivtar neighborhood, where many cars will accompany a truck carrying two large stones to downtown Jerusalem. The stones symbolize the foundation stones of the Third Holy Temple. Each of them weighs 6.5 tons and is made of diamond-cut marble; metal-cut stones are not permitted for Temple use. From downtown, the stones will be brought without fanfare to the Temple Mount gate near the Western Wall plaza for the conclusion of the ceremony.

Gershon Solomon, leader of the group, spoke excitedly of the historic nature of the decision: "From a historic and national perspective, this begins a new chapter in our struggle for the Temple Mount, and actually for Jerusalem and the entire Land of Israel. Foundation stones for the Holy Temple in downtown Jerusalem! In a convoy and with a parade! This has tremendous significance, it is a real revolution - the crown jewel of the revival of the People of Israel in the Land of Israel."

My reply

Significant symbolism. The Temple Mount Faithful group has been trying this every year lately, and so far, have been stopped from actually getting on the temple mount. If I remember right, it was last year that they added the second marble stone.

They do bring to mind the fact that Israel is responsible for building the temple when the time is right. The truck the stones are on is parked in a prominent place where people can see the stones and be reminded every time they pass it.

I do wonder why the group would use diamond-cut marble unless it is intended to be purely symbolic. Maybe that is the only kind they could obtain. They seem to be doing whatever they can toward building the temple.

The Temple Mount Faithful seem to also be involved in getting certain things manufactured so as to be ready when the temple is rebuilt. Agape

PS: Here is what Google came up with when I typed in Temple Mount Faithful:
Temple Mount & Land of Israel Faithful Movement

... The goal of the Temple Mount Faithful is the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in our lifetime in accordance with the Word of Gd ...

Description: Group's objective is to remove the Al-Aqsa and Dome of the Rock mosques. Site offers religious polemics... Category: Society > Issues > ... > Israel-Palestine > Organizations - 14k

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