Pro and Con 1049

Posted 8-21-03

Virus news

Be careful not to send or open attachments. If you have to read attachments, copy them to disk first. Don't open them in the e-mail program.

I am receiving 100's of SoBig virus copies with .pif attachments. They are clogging my mailbox. Thanks to Norton, my computer is protected, but it still takes a lot of time to let them come in and quarantine them. If you send me e-mail that is returned because my mailbox is full, please re-send at intervals until it is not returned.

This virus is programed to self-destruct Sept. 10. Until then, the Internet will probably be clogged with it. I hope they catch the one sending it out. The main subjects are "thank you," "document," "approved," "resume," "that movie," "wicked screensaver" and "my details."

Incoming email, Re: Comments Concerning the Pre-Trib. Rapture, From: saltoftheearth

With all due respect,the pre-trib. rapture is unbiblical. It is a con of the devil so christians will be caught unaware when the tribulation period starts. Jesus plainly said that He was coming,"Immediatly after the tribulation" in Matt.24:29. Nowhere in the bible does it have His second coming divided into two parts seven years apart.Nowhere does it say that the catching away of the saints can happen at any time before the tribulation,like today,or tomorrow,or next week. He comes after the tribulation,BUT,we won't know the day or hour that the tribulation will end. Sometime during the last 3 and 1 half years of the great tribulation,Jesus will come and gather us{rapture},but what hour? no one knows,for we only know that He comes for us after the tribulation,and we don't know when it is even going to start.Some christians think that Matt.24 is written to the jews only. Matt.24 was written to all christians,especially to the christians who would be here in the end times.

Jesus said in verse 9,".....ye shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake." What is that "name sake"? Christ,and who has that "name sake"? CHRISTians. Anybody that stands for Christ will be hated by the Christ rejecters whether it be in Israel or in the U.S.or in between. We will be hated by all nations. The word "elect" in the new testament refers to the saints of God,and not just the jews. How many resurrections are there? answer:2 What happens to Satan at the first resurrection according to Rev.20 verses 1-3? Answer: He is bound and sealed in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. John is obviously witnessing the future judgment seat of Christ{Bema seat} in verse 4,because which resurrection does verse 5 mention? Answer:First resurrection. Where does the man of sin{anti-christ} get his power from? Answer: Satan. How could he if Satan is bound and sealed?

Not only that,but the apostle Paul plainly said in 2 Thess.2,that the Lord's coming and our gathering together unto Him{rapture} wouldn't happen until when? Answer: The falling away{religious apostasy},AND,that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition{anti-christ}. What happens when he is revealed? He is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming according to verse 8. The word "coming" in verse 1 and the word "coming" in verse 8 are the same coming. They're not two seperate comings divided by 7 years. The greek word for "coming" is "parousia",which means "arrival and presence". There are no two "parousias" 7 years apart,so if the first resurrection happens at the rapture,which it does,and if the rapture happens before the tribulation period,then there would be no tribulation period,because Satan is bound and sealed at the first resurrection,and the man of sin is destroyed when the Lord comes for us. There is no two first resurrections. The second resurrection is after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Pre-tribbers often use 1 Thess.4 to try to prove their point. Paul said in verse 14,".....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If there was a pre-trib.rapture,and it happened today,then why would the Lord bring all those saints with Him just to get us and then turn around and take them all back to heaven for another 7 years along with us? He and the angels could just come for us. Think about it. Nowhere does the bible say that the Church goes to Heaven for 7 years. You might be thinking what Paul said in 1 Thess. 5:9,"For God hath not appointed us to wrath...." That's right,because God's wrath is poured out after the tribulation on unrepentant sinners{hail stones,volcanic eruptions, earthquakes,anti-christ and false prophet cast into the lake of fire etc.}. During the tribulation,the trumpet plaques will only affect the ones who don't have the seal of God in their foreheads{5 trumpet plaque in Rev.9:4 and probably the other plaques won't affect us either}. Whoever gets martyred,it's because God allowed it and that person will be greatly rewarded. The horn{anti-christ} makes war with the saints,and nowhere does that refer to as just the jews that he makes war with.

Just because Jesus said in Luke 21:36,"Watch ye therefore,and pray always,that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these that shall come to pass...", or of what He said in Rev.3:10 to the Philadelphia Church doesn't mean He was referring to a rapture,we can't just assume that. Jesus can easily protect us without rapturing us and He can supply us with food so we don't starve during the tribulation. He protected Noah and his family from the flood with out a rapture,and no,that "come up hither" call is not the pre-trib.rapture either as some pre-tribbers think that is in Rev.4,that should be obvious. The Church may not be mentioned past Rev.4,BUT,the saints are mentioned at least a dozen times,and they make up the Church. There is only one "coming",one "gathering",one first resurrection. We get new bodys to rule and reign down here,not to go up to heaven. The return of the Lord and the gathering{rapture} and Him destroying the anti-christ kindom {wrath} STARTS in a twinkling of an eye and that's when two in the field,the one taken and the other left etc. Jesus will come as a thief in the night according to 1 Thess.5:2 to the unsaved. They will be planting and building and eating and drinking and marrying and given in marriage etc. They won't expect it. We are warned ahead of time,"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,that that day should overtake you as a thief"{1Thess.5:4}. Yes,Jesus has many mansions and He is coming for us and we will be with Him where ever He's at as He said in John 14,but that doesn't mean before the tribulation period. We have that "blessed hope" of seeing our saved loved ones who have passed on and all of us getting new bodys and we win the war with the anti-christ and we get to rule and reign with Christ,and that's why Paul said,"Wherefore comfort one another with these words" in 1 Thess.4:18.

One more thing,I forgot to tell you who I think the restrainer is that holds Satan from taking over before the tribulation. If it's the Holy Spirit,He won't be taken out of the way entirely,because He will be here. I believe it might be "truth" that is holding back the forces of evil. What is "truth"? Answer: God's word,and it is keeping Satan from taking over completely right now because the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword as declared in Hebrews 4:12,and it has to be taken out of the way.Jesus is the Word made flesh,and that might be the "he" in 2 Thess.2:7. Interesting thought. Someone said that Michael the archangel was the restrainer,only the Lord knows. The bible plainly says that we will be here. The pre-trib.rapture is a false teaching. If you have any comments or questions,you can e-mail me,and I will try to answer them. God Bless

My reply

Hi! saltoftheearth:

> > the pre-trib. rapture is unbiblical

To me, it is very Biblical. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, the churches (represented by candlesticks, v. 20) are all around Christ in Heaven. The Rapture has just taken place.

In Rev. 5:9, the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" are in Heaven when the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth is given to Christ. The first seal is not opened until chapter 6. John is one of the 24 elders. He and the other 23 elders are seen crowned and sitting on their thrones in Rev. 4:4, right after John is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1.

When the Tribulation is near, Isa 57:1-3 says, "THE RIGHTEOUS perisheth (abad, wander away), and no man layeth it to heart: AND MERCIFUL MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY (acaph, taken up, removed; i.e., raptured), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS (one wearing white robes) IS TAKEN AWAY (acaph, taken up, removed) FROM THE EVIL (the Tribulation) TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds (in Heaven, Psa. 149:5), each one walking in his uprightness. But DRAW NEAR HITHER, ye sons of the sorceress (the Beast and False Prophet in the Tribulation), the seed of the adulterer and the whore."

> > Jesus plainly said that He was coming,"Immediatly after the tribulation" in Matt.24:29. Nowhere in the bible does it have His second coming divided into two parts seven years apart.

The Second Coming is not divided. At the Rapture, a separate event, Christ does not come to the ground as he does at the Second Advent. At the Rapture, he meets us in the clouds. I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

> > Sometime during the last 3 and 1 half years of the great tribulation,Jesus will come and gather us{rapture}

I think the Tribulation saints will be raptured just before God's Wrath hits Earth. Those wise Philadelphian virgins caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture will be overcomers wearing white robes of righteousness. Those foolish Laodicean virgins left behind will have had to wash their robes, and make them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14). Then they will be raptured out of the Great Tribulation in the night or morning of the Day of God's Wrath.

Zeph. 2:3-5 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast" (when the blazing asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea at noon).

> > John is obviously witnessing the future judgment seat of Christ{Bema seat} in verse 4,because which resurrection does verse 5 mention? Answer:First resurrection.

There are ranks in the First Resurrection.
1st rank: the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 30 AD
2nd rank: the resurrection at the Pre-Trib Rapture
3rd rank: the resurrection at the Pre-Wrath Rapture

1Co 15:20-22 says, "now is Christ risen from the dead (in 30 AD), and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." He comes for the wise-Philadelphian-virgin Bride of Christ at the Pre-Trib Rapture. There is no Rapture at the Second Advent. All those saints returning with Christ will have been caught up before the wrath of God falls on the Earth. That Day of God's Wrath will be 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 38:18-20; 39:12,13).

The Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary says, "But every man in his own order--rather, "rank": the Greek is not in the abstract, but concrete: image from troops, "each in his own regiment." 1 Cor. 15:23 (Darby) says, "But EACH IN HIS OWN RANK: the first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming."

I Cor. 15:23 (Hebraic Roots Version) says, "Each man in his ORDER. The Messiah was the first, after that, those who are of the Messiah at his coming."

> > Paul plainly said in 2 Thess.2,that the Lord's coming and our gathering together unto Him{rapture} wouldn't happen until when? Answer: The falling away{religious apostasy},AND,that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition{anti-christ}.

The word "apostasia," translated in the KJV "falling away," literally means DEPARTURE, just as "apostacion" means divorcement, one person leaving the other. The False Prophet can't be revealed until after the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place.

> > What happens when he is revealed? He is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming according to verse 8. The word "coming" in verse 1 and the word "coming" in verse 8 are the same coming. They're not two seperate comings divided by 7 years.

I think these comings are two separate events. The "coming" in II Thess. 2:1 is BEFORE the False Prophet is revealed. It is "OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM" (Christ). The "coming" in verse 8 is "AFTER that Wicked be revealed."

> > Pre-tribbers often use 1 Thess.4 to try to prove their point. Paul said in verse 14,".....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If there was a pre-trib.rapture,and it happened today,then why would the Lord bring all those saints with Him just to get us and then turn around and take them all back to heaven for another 7 years

The dead in Christ are now with Jesus in Heaven. He brings them with him at the Pre-Trib Rapture. They get their resurrection bodies, then "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thess. 4:17,18).

> > Luke 21:36,"Watch ye therefore,and pray always,that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these that shall come to pass...", or of what He said in Rev.3:10 to the Philadelphia Church doesn't mean He was referring to a rapture,we can't just assume that. Jesus can easily protect us without rapturing us and He can supply us with food so we don't starve during the tribulation.

Luke 21:25-36 says, "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (look at the astonishing orange-flashing Mars tonight); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea (nations, Rev. 17:15) and the waves (people) roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (nations); When they now shoot forth (attack), ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand (The Six-Day War started June 5; summer began June 21). So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand (i.e., the Rapture is near). Verily I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (the Pre-Trib Rapture) come upon YOU (believers) unawares. For as a snare shall it (the Rapture) come on all THEM (unbelievers) that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH YE THEREFORE, AND PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE (believers) MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN" (i.e., in Heaven).

> > He protected Noah and his family from the flood with out a rapture

In Mt. 24:37-40, Jesus says, "as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (i.e., at the Rapture, when we will be floated up). Then (at the Rapture) shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (the one accounted worthy, Luke 21:36), and the other left."

> > no,that "come up hither" call is not the pre-trib.rapture either as some pre-tribbers think that is in Rev.4,that should be obvious. The Church may not be mentioned past Rev.4,BUT,the saints are mentioned at least a dozen times,and they make up the Church. There is only one "coming",one "gathering",one first resurrection.

There are Old Testament saints, Church saints, and Tribulation saints.

> > We get new bodys to rule and reign down here,not to go up to heaven.

In John 14:2,3, Jesus said, "In my Father's house (i.e., in Heaven) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I GO (to Heaven) TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (at the Rapture), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (in Heaven), THERE YE MAY BE ALSO."

> > We have that "blessed hope" of seeing our saved loved ones who have passed on and all of us getting new bodys and we win the war with the anti-christ and we get to rule and reign with Christ,and that's why Paul said,"Wherefore comfort one another with these words" in 1 Thess.4:18.

This "comfort one another" in 4:18 and the "comfort yourselves together" in 5:11 bookend an important passage. Pay close attention to the mention of "we," believers, and "they," unbelievers. Knowing that we will be raptured before the Tribulation is real comfort.

It says, "But of the times and the seasons, BRETHREN (believers), YE have no need that I write unto YOU. For YOURSELVES know perfectly that the day of the Lord (i.e., the Day of God's Wrath) so cometh as a thief in the night. For when THEY (unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE (in the Pre-Wrath Rapture or otherwise). But YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day (Day of God's Wrath, day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture) should overtake YOU as a thief. YE are all the children of light, and the children of the day: WE ARE NOT OF THE NIGHT (i.e., Tribulation), nor of darkness. Therefore let US not sleep, as do others; but let US WATCH (for signs and for the Lord) and be sober. For THEY that sleep sleep in the night (i.e., the Tribulation); and THEY that be drunken are drunken in the night (i.e., the Tribulation). But let US, who are of the day (i.e., before the Tribulation), be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the HOPE OF SALVATION (that's a blessed hope). For GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for US, that, whether WE wake or sleep, WE should live together with him. Wherefore COMFORT YOURSELVES together".

> > I believe it might be "truth" that is holding back the forces of evil.

I believe that is WE, THE SALT OF THE EARTH. Salt restrains the growth of leaven in bread making. Leaven is the symbol of evil. When the salt of the Earth has gone up to Heaven, evil will mushroom quickly on Earth.

> > The pre-trib.rapture is a false teaching.

To me, to teach that there is no Pre-Trib Rapture is a false teaching. Scripture proves otherwise. We must be careful whose ideas we parrot. Nothing is as safe as sticking to Scripture.

Remember that Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." How can we be accounted worthy? Take I John 1:9 to heart. Do what it says. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I believe that he who is accounted worthy will be wearing white robes of righteousness and will ESCAPE before the Tribulation. Agape

Incoming email, Re: UN in Baghdad

The UN headquarters in Baghdad was the target of a large truck bomb today, 15 dead, 40 injured but that number will surely rise since they are still digging through the rubble. Some UN high officials were in the building at the time. The UN has been in that building since 1991. Perhaps they should move their main headquarters to Babylon since that area has had no attacks: "Yes, that's it, let's move to Babylon." Love

My reply

Thanks for this news. Things do seem to be moving in that direction....

Incoming email, Re: The End of "Peace"

IsraelBehindTheNews.com 15th August, 2003
Next stop on the Road Map: All-out war

The End of "Peace," By David Bedein

Anyone who breathes the air of Israel during summer 2003 can discern plans for war in the Fall.

Israel's press is replete with Israeli intelligence reports which convey the precise plans of Israel's adversaries for war in the Fall.

The 167 Arab terror attacks which occurred during the first month of the "Hudna" served as a somber reminder to the prognosis of Arab terror attacks to come.

Official Palestinian Authority media is replete with war preparations:

PA TV and radio carry daily salutes to martyrdom and Jihad in the war to "liberate all of Palestine."

PA TV and radio show Arab refugees from 1948 and their descendants conducting parades in their UN refugee camps, marching in heavily armed processions, demanding the fulfillment of what they perceive as the UN promise of the "right of return" to their "villages from 1948," while Arab refugees and their descendants, while they demand that Israel "remove the settlements" as a condition for peace - Four million Arab refugees and their descendants openly define "settlements" on the PA media as Jewish cities like Beersheva, Ramle and Lod, which replaced Arab villages in 1948.

The time has come to cope with reality.

The PLO and Hamas and other Arab terror groups never agreed to any cease-fire.

They did agree to a "Hudna," viewed in Arab Islamic folklore and defined in Islamic law as a respite between battles in a longer war against non-Arab Islamic infidels who are not a party to any such hudna.

The PLO and Hamas planned their Hudna to last for exactly three months, and they mean it.

All Palestinian Arab organizations conduct military training of their Palestinian Arab population, so that they can conduct a better organized and more cost effective war this time when the time for hostilities are scheduled to resume - at the precise end of the Hudna, on September 29, 2003, which this year marks the third calender day of the Jewish New Year.

The ascension of Abu Mazen to a formal leadership position in the PLO has meant that the colorless PLO for the past generation may organize the finances and the armed forces of the Palestinian Authority in a better and more efficient manner, without lifting a finger to defuse the PLO.

And the ubiquitous Arafat remains in the picture, running everything from his Ramallah Mukatta.

Arafat plans the next stage of battle against Israel with an international character. For the first time in thirty years, Israel can expect that any outbreak of hostilities will be accompanied by active military support from Islamic countries in diverse directions - Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya and maybe even Egypt.

PLO and Hamas leaders make it quite clear that if Israel does not agree to the terms of the road map and that if Israel does not agree to the terms of the road map, then the Hudna will terminate on September 29th as planned, and the Islamic regimes in the middle east will not stand idly by.

The Palestinian Authority published thousands of copies of the Road Map for every Palestinian Arab to read.

Yet hardly any Israelis have ever read the road map.

The "road map," as it is presented, is based on the Saudi Plan from March 2002, which mandates that Israel withdraw to pre-1967 lines and that Israel recognize the "right of return" for all Palestinian Arab refugees to return to their homes from 1948.

Most Israelis do not know that.

Elul, the Jewish month before Rosh HaShanah, the Jewish New Year, is traditionally a time in which Jews take stock and reconsider the way in which they have been organizing their lives and their existence.

This year, the month before Rosh HaShanah will provide Israel and Jewish communities abroad with an opportunity to learn about what the road map portends.

An aside: When the Oslo process was launched:

Arafat declared time and time again that the diplomatic track would be used only now for a few years.

Arafat repeated time and again that he would operate according to Islamic custom and make treaties with the Jews which could easily be broken when the Jews would be weak.

Arafat often spoke of seven years of the diplomatic trek, to be followed by the armed struggle. Very people took Arafat seriously then . . . Even when Israeli intelligence held open briefings throughout the calender year 1999-2000 in which the IDF warned that the PLO was taking irreversible steps towards a war in September 2000, very few people took Arafat seriously.

The time has come to take Arafat and his allies with the utmost of seriousness, and to understand that:

Arafat signed an interim accord at the time of the Jewish New Year in September 1993

Arafat launched a war at the time of the Jewish New Year in September 2000

Arafat and his allies promise to continue war at the time of the Jewish New Year in September 2003. No one in Israel is prepared for a peace based on the Saudi principles.

The PLO and Hamas know that.

The population of Israel is just now waking up to the reality that the terms of the road map are indeed based on a Saudi plan unacceptable to Jews.

Incoming email, Re: Temple Mount open

Good Morning my Sister in our Wonderful Lord,
This is...The one who in 1963 died and went to Heaven and the Heavely Father said that I was not to enter Heaven at that time, and then the two 'men' in white who had taken me there, brought me back to earth.

So.o the Temple Mount is to open this week to Christians and Jews. Marilyn, have you heard that Israel was to have picked up a conversation by Arafat that the Arabs indeed intend to blow up the Temple Mount - blame it on the Chrsitians and Jews, so that the whole Arab world will then be turned against the Christians and Jews??...sounds like somethihing they would do. Well...that would just make way for the prophesied 3rd Temple!!! I was one who always thought the pre-Trib. Rapture would probably be in the Spring, but now it looks like we could be 'outta' here with in our Eternal Home soon!

Thank You Marilyn for all your good sharing of information to help prepare our hearts for the Coming of our Lord. Here, There and in the Air!!

My reply

Nice to hear from you. I have heard rumor only about Arabs blowing up Dome of the Rock and blaming it on Israel, nothing concrete. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Even time

Did you know that the "even" spoke of in the scriptures do not mean evening! "Even' means the "even time" between the days! Evening could mean any time after 12:00 A.M! The "even time" spoken in the Bible starts between night and the next night, 24 hours! All Holy days begin at night, and continues until the next night. The Bible tells us that a 24 hour day begins from night to night! Just about everyone mis-interprets "even" for evening! They just don't know that even can mean the even time between any two things! Even means the exact even time between two days!

My reply

Where did you find this information? Is any proof given? Agape

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