Pro and Con 1050

Posted 8-24-03


...Thursday night, Mubarak shouted at Arafat: “We won’t let you plunge Arab world in fresh bloodbath. Your head is on the block!” EU’s Fischer threatened Arafat with final break if he denies Abu Mazen government forces to deal with terrorists....

Friday, Bush administration froze assets of Hamas leaders and five European-based organizations raising money for group - in wake of Tuesday’s Jerusalem bus bombing that killed 20 people, including six children. Bush called for worldwide freeze on Hamas assets...

Instructions for deleting SoBig.f Virus from infected computers

Symantec Security Response - W32.Sobig.F@mm

Systems Affected: Windows 2000, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Me, Windows NT, Windows XP
Systems Not Affected: Linux, Macintosh, OS/2, UNIX, Windows 3.x

Incoming email
Mars attacks? Astronomers excited, seers turn to god
By Deepshikha Ghosh, Indo-Asian News Service

New Delhi, Aug 11 (IANS) The planet Mars is coming closer to Earth than ever before in mankind's recorded history on August 27 -- and it could be doomsday!

For this closest encounter ever since the red planet last inched closer -- when Neanderthals roamed the Earth -- scientists and astronomers are readying their telescopes, but Indian seers are just praying....

On August 27, Mars will come the closest in the last 73,000 years, at a distance of 55.8 million kilometres, at 9.51 a.m. GMT. It last happened in 57,538 B.C. It will not happen again till August 28, 2287, when it will be 70,000 km closer.

Says a planetarium official: "It is a treat for all Earth observers - this can be seen from anywhere on Earth. Usually Mars is a poor lookout as it is a small disk on the telescope, but amateur astronomers can now get a better picture than ever."

Amateurs can spot Mars that day as the brightest natural object in the heavens except for the Sun and Moon.

Incoming email, Re: READREADREAD!!!! Egyptian Jurists to Sue 'The Jews' for Compensation for 'Trillions' of Tons of Gold Allegedly Stolen During Exodus from Egypt

Trust me, I've tried, but I find no mention of this in my Bible.

Anyway, if I were running Egypt and had any hope of bringing this to fruition, I'd be treating Israel with overwhelming solicitude. After all, they're my meal ticket for 1000 years.

My reply

Thanks. I hadn't seen this news.

When God's wrath hits this globe. Babylon will be destroyed to the point that no man will walk there again. At that same time, the land of Egypt will be destroyed so badly that no one will live there for the next 40 years.


At twilight, in a darkened room with closed heavily lined draperies, I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It says, "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon (meaning the gate of God, i.e., where the bottomless pit will be opened, Rev. 9:2) is taken, Bel (same as Baal, lord, master, possessor, owner, the sun god) is confounded, Merodach (little lord, another Babylonian idol) is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces."

Jer 51:41-45 says, "How is Sheshach (symbol of Babylon) taken! and how is the praise of the whole earth surprised! how is Babylon become an astonishment among the nations! The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof (when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 turn the world upside down). Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness (arabah, desert), a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby. And I will punish Bel (i.e., the final False Prophet) in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up (Satan, Rev. 13:11): and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall. My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD."

Rev. 18:4 echoes, "Come out of her, my people."


Eze 29:11-13 says, "No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries. Yet thus saith the Lord GOD; At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered." Agape

Why France?
13,600 Killed by Heatwave in France 8-20-03
France's crops devastated by heat - AP

My comments

I found four interesting articles on a Thursday Crucifixion. I had read the one before by Chris Lingle. The others were new to me.

As you may already know, I believe that a Thursday Crucifixion fits all the clues, falling naturally into place without twisting any scriptures. See Pro and Con 893 and 963.

You can to to the sites for more information. The chart below, by Matthew J. Slick, is very interesting, as are the other articles.

Before I print his chart, I would like to clarify how I count days, etc.

Mat 12:40 says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth." These were Thursday day, Friday night then day, Saturday, night then day, and Sunday night.

Mat 27:40 says, "Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in THREE DAYS, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross." He was speaking of the temple of his body. These three days were Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Luke 24:21says, "we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day (Sunday) is the THIRD DAY SINCE these things were done." If the Crucifixion was Thursday, the three days since were Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

How long was Jesus dead in the tomb?

Matthew J. Slick, 2002

...Therefore, perhaps the following chart could represent a Thursday crucifixion and a subsequent set of three "night and days" before the Sunday resurrection.

   Day 1 Day 2 Day 3  
13th of Nisan 14th of Nisan 15th of Nisan 16th of Nisan
starts at
sundown on Wed.
ends at sundown
starts at sundown on Thu..
ends at
starts at sundown on Fri.
ends at sundown
starts at sundown on Sat.
ends at sundown
Night Day Night Day Night Day Night Day




He rose


The Case for a Thursday Crucifixion - May 1, 2001

By Ernest L. Martin

...The possibility of such a Thursday crucifixion being true is not a new-fangled idea. A major article appeared in the journal Bibliotheca Sacra, vol.27 (l870),pp.401-429, titled The Crucifixion on Thursday - Not Friday by J.K. Aldrich. Shortly after this, Professor Westcott of Britain in his An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels (Cambridge:1881), pp.343-349, also maintained that Thursday was the day. Recently, primarily based on new astronomical data, Roger Rusk, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Tennessee, has revived the Thursday theory (Christianity Today, March 29, 1974). The astronomical indications are powerful for a Thursday. These evidences have convinced me that the case needs to be reopened for investigation. When Professor J.K.Fotheringham in The Journal of Theological Studies vol.35 (1934), pp.146-162 brought out the astronomical data for the appearance of the new moon for Nisan (as they related to Jerusalem), he opted for a Friday crucifixion date for A.D.30. But he mentioned that Professor Gerhardt had contacted Professor Neugebauer, of the Astronomisches Recheninstitut at Berlin, and calculations showed that it would have been barely possible for the crescent of the new moon to have been seen a day earlier (p.159). But with new computer print-outs of the astronomical occurrences of the new moons for Babylon and Jerusalem, it appears almost certain that the moon would definitely have been seen a day earlier. (This can be checked in Bryant Tuckerman’s Planetary, Lunar, and Solar Positions A. D. 1 to A.D. 1660, from the American Philosophical Society of Philadelphia, 1964, and Herman H. Goldstine’s New and Full Moons, 1001 B.C. to A.D. 1651, Philadephia, 1973, p.86. These tables must be compared with Fotheringham’s calculations for the appearance of the crescent that succeeds the astronomical new moon. See page 162 of JTS.).

Though all of this may appear technical (and, of course, it is), it still remains clear that the crescent of the new moon for Nisan in A.D.30 could have been seen a day earlier than that suggested by Fotheringham before the advent of advanced computer print-outs. If this is so, then in A.D.30 (which year, as I demonstrated in an early FBR Commentator for April, 1983, is the only year that fits for the crucifixion), Nisan 14 would certainly have occurred on a Thursday (actually it would have begun at sundown on the previous evening to accord with Jewish usage for the beginning of days)....

MJA note: I figured that Thursday was Nisan 13, the preparation for the Passover.

A Thursday crucifixion?

By Val Borum

___With all respect to those who for centuries have marked Good Friday as the day of Jesus' crucifixion, I have a growing doubt that this longstanding tradition is a correct interpretation of Scripture. I am increasingly puzzled about an apparent chronological disparity between Jesus' words and the customary observance of Good Friday:...

Sunday minus three days is Thursday, and that alone is sufficient evidence for me to consider the probability that the sacrifice of the Son of Man must have occurred on a Thursday....

May I suggest that if the crucifixion were Thursday, as I do believe, then Wednesday was a well-chronicled, very busy day as well, for it was the day of preparation of the Lamb, with the upper room, Last Supper, washing of feet, and Jesus' betrayal and trial.

MJA note: I think Thursday was the preparation for the Passover, not Wednesday. Jesus died as the lambs were being killed in the temple. They had to be roasted and eaten between 6 PM and midnight on Nisan 14, Passover (Lev. 23:5).

When Were the True Dates of the Crucifixion and Resurrection?
By Chris Lingle

...Now, does a Thursday crucifixion fulfill "three days and three nights" to Sunday morning? It sure does - in a precise way: (Th.-D, Th.-N, Fri.-D, Fr.-N, Sat.-D, Sat.-N). Saturday night and Sunday from midnight to dawn in Hebrew day reckoning is the night portion of the first day of the week and it was at this time that Yahushua the Messiah rose from the dead! To be sure, let’s look at a mistranslated verse in the Greek which some may point to at Mt. 27:57. Most translations from the Greek render "And evening having come"...he came to Pilate and asked for the body of Messiah and then placed it in the tomb. However, we should know that the torah forbids that a body remain unburied after sunset (Deut. 21:23). The Shem Tob (Hebrew Matthew) correctly states that it was (la-et erev) "toward evening time" when Joseph inquired about the body. Therefore, we do know that the Messiah was captured, tortured, crucified, AND buried BEFORE evening time. Therefore, we know that counting the day portion of Thursday as the first day is valid. We also know, from our analysis above, that the Messiah rose during the night portion of Saturday night or Sunday twilight. Therefore, we know that this qualifies as the 3rd night mentioned in Mt.12:40. With the beginning and ending point thus established, the Thursday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection is a lock - providing an affirmative match for every scripture germain to the subject.

3) But, doesn’t Dan. 9 establish a Wednesday, 31 or 34 C.E. crucifixion? The answer is, as you might could guess by now, no. But, here is basically how this construct is more properly derived: Many of the readers should be familiar with the prophecy in Daniel 9 which gives 70 weeks of years (490 years) from Artaxerxes’ decree to the time of the end. Artaxerxes co-reigned with his father 20 years and had a sole reign of 7 years when, according to the Persian eponym and the Prophet Daniel, in 457-6 B.C.E he (Artaxerxes) took sole reign and made the decree recorded in Ezra concerning the rebuilding of the temple that is referred to in Dan. 9:25. According to the 31 C.E. proponents the last week referred to in Dan. 9:27 refers to Yahushua the Messiah and thus the week is cut in half thereby leaving 486 1/2 years to be reckoned from Artaxerxes decree to the crucifixion. The problem is that the reference to the last week of years (7 years) in Dan. 9:27 refers to the time of the end, which is still yet ahead. Furthermore, the reference to the "nagid" (wicked commander or prince in Dan. 9:26) that makes the covenant with many for one week (in Dan. 9:27) at the time of the end obviously CANNOT refer to Yahushua Messiah. Therefore, the reference to the oblation and offering ceasing in the midst of the week has nothing to do with the Messiah being crucified, but rather with the offerings being stopped in the midst of the final seven years in a future temple yet to be rebuilt. However, what the prophecy in Dan. 9:25 does say is that AFTER 62 weeks (7 weeks having already transpired, therefore - 483 years) the Messiah would be cut off. What is interesting to note about this prophecy is how things are lined out in sevens. Could this mean we should count using the established sabbath year reckoning from Lev. 25? 11QMelchisedec, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, suggests that we should in fact use the sabbath and jubilee cycles to count this prophecy. According to 11QMel., there are 10 jubilees from a Decree to a time when "Melchisedec" will atone for the people’s sins. The reference to Melchisedec is unmistakenly the Messiah, and the atonement is his crucifixion. Furthermore, the fragment is actually a midrash of Dan. 9:25-27 which it quotes extensively. Jubilees are counted by 49 year periods with the 50th year overlapping to also be the first year of the following cycle. Therefore, 10 jubilees is 490 years. Now, with the sabbath and jubilee style of reckoning in mind, let us consider how the proper count should be reckoned. We have already established that the last 7 years belongs to a time yet to come. If we start from the very first sabbath year after 457-6 B.C.E., which would be 455-454 B.C.E., and we end with the first year AFTER the 483 years expire (which is the sabbath year of 28-29 C.E.) then we arrive at the year 30 C.E. Therefore, we see that we have a more acceptable interpretation of Dan. 9:25-27 available to us which viably arrives at the year prior to 31 C.E. and fits the Th-Sun. scenario like a glove. This interpretation also does not violate the clear separartion of Daniel’s last week from the initial 69 weeks as does the 31 C.E. interpretation. It is very clear that the wicked commander (prince) from Dan. 9:26 cannot refer to the Messiah and that the entire last week is referring to a time yet to come. It is equally clear that the ceasing of sacrifice and oblation in the middle of that last seven years cannot accordingly refer to the Messiah’s crucifixion. Therefore, from this explanation and more accurate understanding, it is clear that Dan. 9:25-27 does not support a Wednesday, 31 or 34 C.E. crucifixion. Furthermore, since it is weeks of years that are being dealt with here, a reference to a "day" in the middle of the week is non-sequitor. Instead, we see that the prophecy actually nails the year 30 C.E.

Adding to the evidence for a 30 C.E. crucifixion is the following: Jewish tradition states that the Shekinah (presence) left the temple 40 years prior to the destruction of the Temple. It is well established by Josephus and others that the events surrounding the destruction of the Temple occurred in the year 70 C.E. (Jos., Wars 5:3:1). Also, Eusebius states in his work Hist. 3:7:8 that "For 40 full years it (providence) suspended their (the Jewish) destruction after their crime against the Messiah". Added to this, Eusebius refers to an Aramaic letter written by Abgar the Toparch. This letter dates the death of the Messiah and the subsequent visit of Thaddeus to Abgar "in the 340th year" of the Edessene era. This era began in 310-309 B.C.E. and thus establishes the year of the Messiah’s crucifixion in 30 C.E. (Eus. Hist. 1:13:10-22; 2:1:6).


Marilyn: As I understand Christ's letter's to the Seven Churches, the Catholic leadership is described through shadow to be that of the Church at Thyatira. As I see it, the Scripture in Revelation 2:20 reads, "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because though sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." To me, fornication refers to the Catholic Church's involvement in the movement of unification of all religions by the ecumenical movement by basically saying, all roads lead to Rome or all gods are basically the one of the same. Christ goes on to say that He gave the Church a "space to repent" and she did not. For that Christ casts her (the unrepentant Thyatira) into great tribulation (being left behind) except for those who repented of their deeds. Christ continues by saying "many" HAVE NOT (within Thyatira/Catholic Church) this doctrine (fornication with other religions/depts of Satan). WHO?, Who (in your opinon) are those within the Catholic Church what would be those "not having the doctrine" Christ speaks of? Could it be those that possess the doctrine.
Vatican Information Service
VATICAN CITY, JUL 18, 2003 (VIS) - The theme chosen by Pope John Paul for the January 1, 2004 World Day of Peace is "International Law, A Path for Peace," according to a communique released yesterday afternoon.

The communique states that this theme "hopes to underline the importance of law as a guarantee of international relations aimed at promoting peace among nations. The recent war in Iraq, in fact, showed all the fragility of international law, especially regarding the functioning of the United Nations."

On January 13, 1997, in his annual address to the diplomatic corps accredited to the Holy See, Pope John Paul expressed his conviction that "International law has been for some time a law of war and peace. I believe it is called ever more to become exclusively a law of peace conceived as a function of justice and solidarity." The basic principles behind this conviction, states the communique, "are the same that inspire the Church's commitment in favor of peace: equality in dignity for every human person and every human community, the unity of the human family, the primacy of law over force."

"Humanity is facing a crucial challenge: if it does not succeed in providing really efficacious institutions to avert the scourge of war, the risk is that the law of force will prevail over the force of law. ... At a world level, international law is called to be an instrument of justice that is capable of producing fruits of peace. The law therefore has the duty of harmoniously regulating international realities ... so that conflicts may be prevented without recourse to arms, but rather through mechanisms and structures able to assure justice, removing the causes of potential conflicts."

The statement concludes: "The world today more than ever needs to live in a renewed and authentic spirit of international legitimacy: the next World Day of Peace intends to offer the Church's contribution in this regard."

My reply

> > Who (in your opinon) are those within the Catholic Church what would be those "not having the doctrine" Christ speaks of?

People like my Catholic e-mail friend. She realizes that the Tribulation Pope will be involved in the Tribulation events, and says, "So be it," because it is prophesied in Scripture. She accepts Christ as her own personal Saviour. People like her just need to hold fast. Rev. 2:25 says, "But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

I know another couple that attend the Catholic church, because it is what they are used to. They believe the right things about Christ and disagree with some other things believed by some there. They too are holding fast till Jesus comes.

I don't know exactly what "the depths of Satan, as they speak" (Rev. 2:24) refers to, but it is something that exists before the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place. It could be referring to demon-possession, or it may have to do with the remnants of the Mystery Religion of Babylon that were incorporated into the church when Constantine issued his Edict of Toleration and made Christianity the state religion. Unconverted pagans were suddenly called Christians. Pagan festivals and Christian festivals were rolled together and kept by both groups.

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