Pro and Con 1056

Posted 9-12-03

Incoming email, Re: Tomb of Absalom may be that of John the Baptist's Father

I thought you might be interested in reading this article. God bless
http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-me-reltomb6sep06,1,555589.story?coll=la-news-religion
---
Derided Tomb Earns More Reverential Study
By Thomas H. Maugh II
9-6-03...But a faint inscription on the tomb, a fortuitous photograph and some inspired detective work have led some experts to believe the monument's true identity is the tomb of Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist.

And not only that. Christian tradition holds that Zacharias was buried in the same crypt as the priest Simeon the Elder, who cradled the baby Jesus and recognized him as the Messiah, and James the Just, brother of Christ....

Puech suggested an even lower-tech approach: making a papier-mache cast. When they did that, then rubbed a piece of chalk across the surface, the inscription suddenly became clear....

It reads: "This is the tomb of Zachariah, martyr, very pious priest, father of John."

Zias and Puech are now trying to decipher other equally faint inscriptions on the tomb. They have already discerned the name Simon and it is possible, Puech said, that the text includes the phrase "He who held in his arms God's Messiah."...

"But there is room for three people in the tomb," Zias said. "There are three burial niches, so it certainly fits."

Scientists Confirm Ancient Date of Jerusalem Conduit

Siloam Tunnel May Have Been Planned to Offset Siege By Guy Gugliotta 9-11-03 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57193-2003Sep10.html

...In a rare success by scholars attempting to match existing archaeological structures with events in the Bible, researchers say they have shown conclusively that Jerusalem's King Hezekiah built the meandering Siloam Tunnel beneath the city around 700 B.C. to discourage the Assyrian Empire from laying siege.

The tunnel runs 1,749 feet southwest from Gihon Spring to the Siloam Pool beneath the ancient section of Jerusalem known as the City of David....

In research reported today in the journal Nature, geographer Amos Frumkin of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and two colleagues used radiocarbon and other radioactive isotope testing to establish the age of the tunnel.

The new research confirmed what a majority of scholars had long believed -- that the tunnel was built about 700 B.C. and is almost certainly Hezekiah's "conduit," mentioned in II Kings 20:20 and further described in II Chronicles 32:3-4....

Feast of Trumpets

Alan Trombetta (11 Sep 2003)
"No man knows the day of the hour...why not?"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2003/alant911-1.htm

...Look at these Names, Themes, and Idioms of the feast that Jews have kept since the time of Moses.

1. Teshuvah (repentance)
2. Rosh HaShanah (Head of the Year, Birthday of the World)
3. Yom Teruah (the Day of the Awakening Blast [Feast of Trumpets)
4. Yom HaDin (the Day of Judgment)
5. HaMelech (the Coronation of the Messiah)
6. Yom HaZikkaron (the Day of Remembrance or memorial)
7. The time of Jacob's (Ya'akov) trouble (the birthpangs of the Messiah, Chevlai shel Mashiach)
8. The opening of the gates
9. Kiddushin/Nesu'in (the wedding ceremony)
10. The resurrection of the dead (rapture, natza1)
11. The last trump (shofar)
12. Yom Hakeseh (the hidden day)

Incoming email, Re: Creation

From: Rich Pope, PKTruthQuest@aol.com

It doesn't matter how you spin it...We know that the length of our days are determined by the rotation of the earth in reference to the sun. It takes 24 hours to make one rotation on the earth's axis giving us night and day. When there is no sun in the heavens, then time as WE define it does not yet exist.

You should read, "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross. it is an excellent book that is very scholarly yet explains physics and the Bible in harmony at a level most people can grasp. Rich

My reply

God counted time on the first DAY, and on the second DAY, and on the third DAY, before he started his work on the fourth day. If he had done nothing on the fourth day, there still would have already been three evenings and mornings determined by the rate of Earth's rotation in sight of the Sun.

THE SKY WAS OVERCAST ON DAY ONE

Gen. 1:4 says, "God DIVIDED the light from the darkness" on Day one. The Sun was in the sky. There was light. The Earth was rotating. Then verse 5 says, "the evening and the morning were (became) the first day. When evening came, the Sun went down. When morning came, the Sun came up. However, there was still so much mist in the atmosphere, the Sun itself was not visible. Only its diffused light was visible. The sky was overcast.

THE SKY BECAME CLEAR ON DAY FOUR

God had already DIVIDED the light from the darkness on Day one. Why repeat on Day four what had already been accomplished on Day one?

Verse 14 says, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven (heavens) to DIVIDE the day from the night." On Day four, the mist dissipated, so the Sun and Moon became visible. The sky became clear. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Sun in verse one

From: Rich Pope

No. It wasn't the sun that was created in verse one. It was the light of shekinnah. And the Hebrew verse that has been translated as let there be light...should be read "turn on the lights" or "let the light shine" you yourself believe there was a war and the earth was recreated after the fall of Lucifer. This, "let there be light" is God's turning on the lights to examine the damage so to speak. Rich

My reply

> > No. It wasn't the sun that was created in verse one. It was the light of shekinnah.

I think God already possessed his shekinnah glory in eternity. Nothing about him needed to be created in Genesis 1.

> > This, "let there be light" is God's turning on the lights to examine the damage so to speak.

Since darkness was upon the face of the deep, there would have been lots of ice. To melt the ice, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen. 1:2).

> > you yourself believe there was a war and the earth was recreated after the fall of Lucifer.

I don't know if there was a war or not, but the chances are good that there was. I think Satan was sentenced to prison and appealed his sentence. Man may have been created to prove that God was just in sentencing Satan to prison. If man, created not being able to see God, could still obey Him, God would be shown to be perfectly just in sending Satan to his prison, for Satan sinned in spite of being able to see God.

Job 38:3-11 says, "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

All the sons of God include Satan. He is called a son of God in Job 1:6. It looks like each angel was individually created. Thus, they, like Adam in Luke:3:38, are called the sons of God.

As our passage in Job 38 continues, I think it is talking about an asteroid taking the Moon out of the Pacific Basin. This shows how the thick darkness could happen. It says, "Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and THICK DARKNESS A SWADDLINGBAND FOR IT, AND BRAKE UP FOR IT MY DECREED PLACE, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?"

On Day three, Gen. 1:9 tells us what happened. It says, "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven (heavens) be gathered together unto ONE PLACE, and let the dry land appear." I think that as the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, the ice melted, and the water dashed off of the land into the Pacific Basin. I imagine that the Grand Canyon was cut quite fast at that time. After the place was dug for the sea, the dry land could appear.

To me, God wasn't recreating Earth in the week of Genesis 1:3f, he was refreshing it to make it a fit habitat for man. It looks like he will need to do that again after Armageddon. Agape

His reply, Re: Creation

No...the word day in Hebrew is Yom and it can mean a 24 hour day or an unspecified length of time. It all depends on the context.

You're wrong on this Marilyn

My reply

Here are some of my thoughts on this. In Gen. 1:1, God set the Earth orbiting and rotating. Otherwise, it would not have kept its place in space. In verse 5, GOD set the kind of day he was referring to when he "called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night." It is the same kind of day and night that we have now.

II Cor. 5:19 tells us that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Since God was in Jesus Christ, he knows the exact length of the day. In John 11:9, Jesus answered, "Are there not TWELVE HOURS IN THE DAY?" Therefore, the Day in Gen. 1:5 has 12 hours. It follows that if the Day was 12 hours, the Night was also 12 hours.

Heb. 1:1-3 explains that "GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (en, IN) HIS SON, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE (poieo, brought forth) THE WORLDS; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

John 1:1-3 explains more about God that is in Jesus Christ. It says, "IN THE BEGINNING (i.e., in Genesis 1:1) was the Word (Christ, 'and his name is called The Word of God,' Rev 19:13), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was IN THE BEGINNING with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE (ginomai, brought into being) BY HIM; and without him was not any thing made (ginomai) that was made (ginomai)."

God in Genesis 1:1 is the same that is in Jesus Christ, the "Creator" (I Peter 4:19). He is both YHVH king of Israel and YHVH of hosts. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH king of Israel), AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts the Redeemer); and beside me there is no God."

When the Creator himself tells us that there are 12 hours in the day, I believe it. He was there. He knows.

On Day three in Gen. 1:12, "the earth BROUGHT FORTH grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit." If the Night had been very long, that plant life would have died in the darkness. I think there were 12 hours of day and 12 hours of night in Gen. 1:5, before the Sun and Moon became visible in verse 14.

On Day one, Gen. 1:4 says, "God DIVIDED THE LIGHT FROM THE DARKNESS." It was an accomplished fact ON DAY ONE.

Since the division of light from darkness had already been done, God did not need to divide the light from the darkness again on Day four. Something else happened that day.

On Day four, Gen. 1:16-19 says, "God made (asah, fashioned out of existing things, prepared) two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set (nathan, hung) them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and TO DIVIDE THE LIGHT FROM THE DARKNESS: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the FOURTH DAY."

What was the difference between the 1st day and the 4th day? I think the thick darkness of Gen. 1:2 was dissipated to the point that the light could come through, but that the fog in the air still obscured the Sun, Moon and stars on Day one. The air cleared further so that by Day four, the Sun, Moon and stars could be seen. Agape

His reply, Re: update

From: Rich Pope, PKTruthQuest@aol.com Marilyn, I would like you to post my updated prediction. Jesus is not going to return anytime this year. Since I have a 100% accuracy level from my past predictions, it would seem only fair to me that you would post my current prediction. Rich

My reply

You have always predicted that Jesus won't come. I wouldn't expect you to do otherwise. As far as I can tell, you don't understand about His Second Advent, let alone the Raptures. You are Jewish and do not believe that Jesus/Yeshua is HaMashiach. Therefore, you have never been baptized with the indwelling Spirit of God that would help you to understand.

Why are these things hard to understand? Isa. 28:9-13 explains. "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people (fulfilled in 30 AD, the apostles spoke in tongues, heard as other languages, Acts 2).To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

Jesus has not come to catch us up to Heaven yet, but I am convinced that he will come before the 70th week of Daniel / the Tribulation starts. The last half will be shortened or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:22,23). Israel will be saved in a day that day, which is the Day of God's Wrath.

Isa 66:7,8 says of Israel, "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child (Jesus/Yeshua). Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or SHALL A NATION BE BORN AT ONCE? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." You may end up part of this group.

I hope that if you are not caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18), that you will see the Pre-Trib Rapture take place. Why? So you will trust in the YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer, Yeshua haMashiach, Jesus Christ, of course.

Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD (YHVH); and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (like Jeremiah was brought up out of the miry pit of earth), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings (the two Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath). And he hath put a new song (sung after both Raptures, Rev. 5:9; 14:3) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." Maybe you will be among the 144,000 Israelites (Rev. 7:1-14) in the second Rapture.

Isa. 57:1-3 tells about the Pre-Trib Rapture. It says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPE, VANISH), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (acaph, gathered, removed, i.e., raptured), none considering that the righteous is taken away (acaph, gathered, removed), from the evil to come (the Tribulation). He (the righteous) shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds (in Heaven, Psa. 149:5), each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither (in the Tribulation/70th week of Dan. 9:27), ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore."

The 'sons of the sorceress' (the harlot church of Babylon, i.e., the United Religions) are the Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 20:10. They are also the two beasts of Rev. 13.

Isa 9:15 tells us more about these two that will rule during the Tribulation. It says, "The ancient and honourable (the Tribulation Pope, head of the United Religions), he is the head (6th head of the great red dragon, Rev. 12:3); and the prophet that teacheth lies (the False Prophet), he is the tail" (of the great red dragon, because he is Satan possessed).

Dan. 8:23-26 describes the False Prophet. It says, "when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (by Satan's): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY (that is drawing near now): he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Jesus Christ/Yeshua HaMashiach); but he shall be broken without hand."

Jer 6:14 seems to be taking place even now. It says, "They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people (Israel) slightly, saying, PEACE, PEACE; WHEN THERE IS NO PEACE."

These two men come to their end in Zech. 5. The "curse that goeth forth (i.e., orbits) over the face of the whole earth" seems to be a binary asteroid that is twice as long as wide, Zech. 5:2; Rev. 8:8,10.

I believe that these two asteroids were typified by the two stone tablets with the ten commandments on them.

Continuing in Zech. 5:3,4, it says, "This is the curse that goeth forth (orbits) over the face of the whole earth: for every one that STEALETH (Thou shalt not steal) shall be cut off as on this side (one stone tablet) according to it; and every one that SWEARETH shall be cut off as on that side (the other stone tablet) according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts (the Redeemer, Isa. 45:6), and it (the curse, i.e., the asteroid) shall enter into the house of the THIEF (the False Prophet who steals), and into the house of him (the Tribulation Pope) that SWEARETH falsely by my name (claims infallibility): and it (the asteroid called Wormwood (Rev. 8:11) shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."

This will take place at Babylon on the Day of God's Wrath. I believe the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place before noon that day.

The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea at noon. Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel, back in the land now, but not desired by the Arabs); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (i.e., be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, I Cor. 15:51,52) in the day of the LORD'S anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast." Shalom and agape

Incoming email

From: Rich Pope

Marilyn, Again, you show your ignorance. I am not Jewish. I was not born of a Jewish mother, nor have I gone through Orthodox conversion.

Secondly, I was a former Methodist pastor, Immersed in water and the Holy Spirit. Just because I have moved on in my spiritual journey doesn't negate my past love for Y'shua.

Thirdly, Christianity doesn't "own" Jesus...I have full faith in his teachings. Why? Because EVERYTHING he said was already taught by the sages prior to his birth. Jesus NEVER said anything original. He was simply quoting others before him. You show me ONE thing that you think is original to Jesus (in reference to God), and I'll show you who he was quoting.

So your assumptions about me are TOTALLY wrong. Your assumptions about my relationship to Y'shua are TOTALLY wrong and your assumptions about my knowledge concerning the "rapture" and "second coming" are TOTALLY wrong. Rich

My reply

I feel sorry for you.

In Pro and Con 867, you said,
> > "As a former Christian." You also said, "There is no way that Jesus of Nazareth could have been the servant of YHVH described in Isa. 53! First of all, according to Christian mythology, Jesus was God Himself, come in the flesh (of Jesus)."
> > "...why did Jesus die? If he wasn't the righteous servant of YHVH, (and he WASN'T)), why did he die such a terrible death?? The answer to this question is unequivocally provided in the Hebrew Scriptures. > > "Thus shall you say to them: the gods that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, THESE shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens!!" (Jeremiah 10:11) Rich

On Pro and Con 868, you said,
> > "The question is, "Why haven't Hebrew scholars spoken up about this earlier?" The answer is simple...Christian missionaries were not that big of a problem in the past. But now that Christians are really pushing to convert Jews, the Jewish community has to break silence and speak the truth to prevent their fellow, uneducated Jews from believing these missionaries."

You told me that the Jewish Stone Edition Tanach was the best translation. You wanted to join the Jewish religion. Then when I read the above, I assumed that you were one of the Jewish community that was speaking up.

For me, I believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Creator, the YHVH of hosts, the King of Israel (Isa. 44:6), both man and God.

Isa. 9:6 speaks of him. It says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from His Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Acts 4:10-12 says, "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Agape

His reply, Re: update

marilyn, Feel sorry for yourself because every single day you put your faith in a man, who was of God but was not himself any more of a man than Moses or King David.

My reply

To Rich Pope: PKTruthQuest@aol.com

What kind of a Truth Quest are you on?

I believe that Jesus has two natures. He is both the LORD from Heaven and man.

Isaiah 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

In Rev. 8:8, Jesus said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning (YHVH king of Israel) AND the ending (YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer), saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY."

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I AM THE FIRST (YHVH King of Israel), AND I AM THE LAST ); and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD."

In Rev. 22:16, Jesus explains how this can be. He said, "I AM THE ROOT (YHVH King of Israel) AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID (YHVH of hosts)."

II Cor. 5:19 says, "GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF."

I believe that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God.

Rom. 8:9 says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS."

John 23-29 says that Jesus "said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM FROM ABOVE: ye are of this world; I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT THAT HE SPAKE TO THEM OF THE FATHER. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM HE, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Col. 2:9 says, "FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY."

I Cor. 15:47 says, "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy; THE SECOND MAN (Jesus) IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN."

Prov. 30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? WHO HATH ESTABLISHED ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH? what is his name, and and WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell?

Psa. 110:1 says, "The LORD (YHVH king of Israel) said unto my Lord (Adonai, YHVH of hosts), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

n Mt. 22:41-45, Jesus asked the Pharisees, "WHAT THINK YE OF CHRIST? WHOSE SON IS HE? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, HOW IS HE HIS SON?"

Be very careful. Heb. 6:4-6 warns, "it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

We don't want to be as those in Rom. 1:22. "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Agape

   Pro and Con 1057   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1996-2003, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 9-12-03