Pro and Con 1057

Posted 9-15-03

Incoming email, Re: Types in the O.T. and do they show 2 raptures for the church.

I came across your web page...while trying to find This gentleman writes about the Bride being separated out from the body of believers like you do, so it was interesting to see there are others to whom God has blessed with this knowledge.

You present other "knowledge" which has sent me scampering to the scriptures to see if they could fit into the types and antitypes of the old and new testament. I'm speaking in regards of two raptures for the church, the church being made up of the Body of Christ with your reference of the Bride being taken out of this world at a different time than the remainder of the body.

So with this premise, here is what I've found starting with Genesis 24, the search for a bride for Isaac. Abraham(type for God the father) sends his servent (type for the Holy Spirit) to his family (type for a Christian, who at salvation becomes a part of the body of Christ) to choose a bride for his son Isaac( type for Christ). The servent is sent with 10 camels(24:10). The number 10 refers to ordinal perfection, or a completeness to whats in view in regards to the earth. In this case it is further explained in the Bible when it states that ALL the goods of his master were in his hand;vs 10. (Holy Spirit has been given all that the Father has in his search for a bride for his son.) After the servent presents himself to Rebekah, Rebekah has the proper response, she is shown a token of what she has been offered and she makes the decision to follow the servent back to his master and to become the bride of Isaac. Her familiy wants her to stay with them a full 10 days, vs. 55, but the servant says hinder me not and when Rebekah is asked if she would go, she gave the appropriate response and they set out the next morning. But she didn't set out alone. Verse 61 tells us that Rebekah AND her damsels rode upon the camels, 10 is this time inferred from the previous mention of the camels, in otherwards "all" the damsels rode. At eventide after they have left Rebekahs homeland and they are in the land of Abraham, they come across Isaac out in one of his fathers fields. Rebekah separates herself from the other damsels by putting a veil across her face and going forth to meet Isaac, (type of the Bride putting on her wedding garment which are the righteous acts of the saints, Rev.19:7,8) Rebekah is lead into Sarahs tent and further separated out from the other damsels, but the other damsels are still there but do not enjoy the close commumion nor the promisies that come with marriage.

In Ruth we see her aligning herself with a Jewish family (type of what can happen to a new testament Christian as they appropriate the blood of a Jew) and through Naomi's lineage, and by faith, Ruth can bring herself under the care of the kinsmen redeemer (Ruth 2:20 , 3:1,2) She gleans all through the harvest and does not present helself to Boaz until the harvest is over (Ruth 2:2,3) Naomi informs Ruth how to prepare herself (3:3), wash theyself (confession), anoint thee (asking for the spirits control) and put they rainment upon thee (righteous acts done by the spirit through the individual). Ruth then presents herself at the threshing floor and at midnight Boaz addresses her- Both the threshing floor and midnight speak of judgement and the judgements for the Christian are spoken of in Rev. 2 and 3. It is not until after Ruth has presented herself that Boaz (Christ) goes about redeeming the inheritance which is what Christ is seen doing in Rev. 5:4,5 and following.

I found some truths here that can't be sidestepped. Ruth presents herself AFTER the barley harvest is over. She did not present herself at the offering of the 1st fruits, but at the end of the completed harvest. The harvest is over and the separation of what is profitable and what is unporfitable takes place at the threshing floor, thats the whole purpose of threshing barley. This is taking place at Boaz threshing floor (the earth will not be taken from Saten and delivered to Christ until after the redemption process is complete,-. end of the tribulation). So in keeping with the type, must this not be in heaven? This judgement must be completed before the redemption of the inheritance can begin, for we see that suggested in Ruth as well as Rev. 2,3 taking place before seals can be broken in Rev.5

The first chapter of Rev. also showed some interesting insight. In the opening verses we see grace and peace being bestowed upon the 7 churches "from him which is and which was and which is to come; and from the seven spirits which are BEFORE his throne; Rev.1:4. (The number seven points to spiritual perfection or completeness.) In verse 10 you see John in the spirit on the Lord's day and he heard behind him a great voice as of a trumpet. In vs. 12 John see's seven candlestick which represent the seven churches (vs 20b) and the Son of man girt about the paps with a golden girdle. We see Christ no longer being depicted as a high priest amongst the candlesticks (where he would have worn the girdle around his hips as were the O.T. priests instructed to do) but the girdle is around his breast area showing he has shifted from the role of priest to judge-There is judgement amongst the churches. We also no longer see the seven spirits before Gods throne, but we see ALL seven angels in the judges hand. Here again the number seven shows a completeness to whats in view. The judge is armed with a sharp twoedged sword. We know that this sword is for "piercing even to the point of dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb. 4:12) You can see this in action as a judgement in the parable of the faithful and evil servent, Mt 24:45-51. Then Rev. 2 and 3 branch into the judgement of the churches. Here we see overcomes with a promise, hence there must be those that aren't and are not recipients of the promises (Heb. 4:1) It is not until these judgements are made that the redemptive act of the kinsman redeemer can take place.

Back to the rapture. I see Rebekah AROSE with her damsels (Gen.24:61). In Matthew we see all 10 virgin ( #10- ordinal perfection, a completion of what is in vew regarding the earth), both the wise and foolish AROSE, Mt. 25:7 The Wise went "in"( like Rebekah went "in" to Sarahs tent where she partook of the promises) and the foolish were left on the outside, the same place the damsels found themselves. The foolish were there, they just could not be allowed in as in Mt. 22:12. The foolish man was escourted to the outside of the festivities and it is infered that when he realized he had forfieted the birthright by living after the flesh, he wept (vs. 13) as Esau did when he realized what he had forfieted in Heb. 12:17.

I've looked long and hard at this. I've prayed and searched because truth is to be held more highly then gold, and we are to be faithful in dealing with what the Lord has brought into our lives. I wanted to face this premise of 2 raptures for the church but I can't find it anywhere in the types. In the parables there were ones left to the Jew (those given in the towns or "house" of Isreal) and those given by the seashore and outside of the "house" directed to the Christians who were once outside of the promises of God. In the parables left to the church, I see judgement and honor dished out at the same time, I see a complete halt to the time of the church without a selective group being given another chance to "better their odds at the judgement seat" even though it may mean going through the discomfort of the tribulation. I believe bearing the judgement at the judgement seat and suffering the chaff being separated by Christ when you could have worked on separating it here on this earth is a far more fearful thing then living through any part of the tribulation. We shall be tried by fire, by a sword, by our own standards with which we have judged others(Mt. 7:1.2)- This is a fearsome thing but necesary for the separation out of the Bride of Christ.

...May the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, guard your heart and thoughts through Christ Jesus. Sister in Christ

My reply

For an Old Testament type of the two Raptures, how about Leah and Rachel? Didn't Jacob get Leah as a wife seven years before he got Rachel?

I think the last year of the Tribulation will be a Jewish Leap Year, because there are 7 months between Tishri 1 (Feast of Trumpets, Day of God's Wrath) and the following Nisan 1, first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year (Second Advent) (Eze. 38:18-20; 39:12,13).

The next LY after 5768 (2007/2008) is 5771 (2010/2011).
Sunday, 5-23-2004 + 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) = Thursday, 9-9-2010 (Tishri 1, Feast of Trumpets).
Sivan 6, Pentecost, is on the 3rd day after 5-23, Wednesday, 5-26-2004--close.

Compare that with what Ex. 19 says, and keep in mind that Moses himself will probably come down with Christ, for Moses and Elijah will be God's two witnesses in the 1st half of the Tribulation. In verses 10 and 11, we read, "the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the THIRD DAY: for the THIRD DAY THE LORD WILL COME DOWN in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai."

Verses 13-17 say, "WHEN THE TRUMPET SOUNDETH LONG, THEY SHALL COME UP TO THE MOUNT. And MOSES WENT DOWN FROM THE MOUNT UNTO THE PEOPLE, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and THE VOICE OF THE TRUMPET EXCEEDING LOUD; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And MOSES BROUGHT FORTH THE PEOPLE OUT OF THE CAMP TO MEET WITH GOD".

This was the first trump of God mentioned in the Bible, just as the Pre-Trib Rapture will be the first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16). It seems possible that Moses will actually escort us to meet with Christ in the air--on Pentecost. Be ready just in case.

Maybe Elijah will escort the Tribulation saints to Heaven on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 9, 2010. This would indicate that the Second Advent would be on the following Nisan 1 (April 5, 2011).

> > We see Christ no longer being depicted as a high priest amongst the candlesticks (where he would have worn the girdle around his hips as were the O.T. priests instructed to do) but the girdle is around his breast area showing he has shifted from the role of priest to judge-There is judgement amongst the churches.

Thanks. I didn't know that wearing the girdle around his hips was like the priests did. However, I thought wearing it around the breast area depicted kingship. Agape

JFB says, "The ordinary girding for one actively engaged, was at the loins; but JOSEPHUS [Antiquities,3.7.2], expressly tells us that the Levitical priests were girt higher up, about the breasts or paps, appropriate to calm, majestic movement."

Incoming email, Re: GREAT!!!!!!!!

The information you shared with me concerning the stars is just what I have been looking for! Thanks so very much. Keep me on your mailing list for up-dates. God bless!

My reply

I don't have a mailing list. My most recent post is generally a Pro and Con. Agape

Incoming email

It's so good to read your pro's and con's. I print most of them off to reread. However I have to ask you a question.

To me, the most important thing concerning the raptures are
Enoch & Noah(gentiles)
Elijah & Lot(hebrews)

I believe there are more than two raptures, I think Enoch Represents the Bride(walked with God and was not for God took him) I think Noah represents those of the church left behind and yet protected to a degree.

and the same thing goes with the two Hebrews. However I cannot explain where they should be placed but i feel they should be somewhere because I feel Enoch representing the Bride and Elijah representing the Hebrews are showing the raptures. I would think Elijah would represent the 144,000 ...

and perhaps any other Jew that has accepted Jesus as his Lord. I appreciate your response and take your time, dear one I know how busy you must be. With all you do on the computer and helping Ed. God is so good, Marilyn... I've had (I'm handicapped)some ask me don't you blame God? and I would answer how can I blame God?? Where would he get this, He has no sickness in heaven...... much love to you and Ed.

My reply

No sickness in Heaven, that's something to look forward to. You have a good attitude. The Rapture will be instant cure.

We sure have our ups and downs. At the present time, Ed is out of pain with his back. Our son David hurt his back yesterday trimming grass from around some rocks in the lawn. He's in excruciating pain now. It sounds much like what happened to me.

I got a setback. I can get around, but some pain returned to my hip and leg. Last week, I got a new sheet of exercises from Rehab to add to those I was already doing. I did them all that night, and woke up the next morning with muscle spasms in my bad hip and down my leg, exactly what I didn't need. Gotta take it slower.

Not counting the resurrection and ascension of Moses and Elijah Mid-Trib, I can just see two Raptures. The first group of saints is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." The second group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. They come out of the Great Tribulation. They too are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues."

All of the first group sing the "new song." Of the 2nd group, only the 144,000 Israelites sing "as it were a new song."

The 144,000 Israelites "which were redeemed from (apo, off, away from, separation, departure, completion) the earth...they are virgins... firstfruits ... without fault before the throne of God" (Rev. 14:3-5). Therefore, it seems that they will be added to the Bride group.

Maybe the Rapture of Enoch represents the Gentile Bride saints, and the Rapture of Elijah represents the Israelite Bride saints that will be converted by the return of Moses and Elijah during the first half of the Tribulation.

Instead of it being another Rapture, I think the first Rapture is "as the DAYS of Noe" in Mt. 24:37f. All were married. That is a good picture of the Bride saints. Water, symbol of the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9), fell in torrents that day to lift them up. The "fountains of the great deep (were) broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11).

We need these details of the days of Noah and the days of Lot to understand the difference between the two Raptures. No fire falls the first time, just rain. Fire and brimstone fall the second time.

Concerning the first Rapture, Mt. 24:40 says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." We know that the field is the world (Mt. 13:38).

Luke 17:29-34 concerns the second Rapture, the one that is as the DAYS of Lot. It says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all (this Rapture takes place on the Day of God's Wrath). Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14-17). In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left."

On the same day as the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:2-5). Agape

Incoming email, Re: Matt 24

Matt 24 is speaking to the Jews, not the Church! The virgins represent the Jewish marriage, not the Christian marriage. That is referring to the Jews warning.

The Christians are referred to in Rev. as the Laodiceans - that is the Church's warning.

This is an answer I received from a teacher to a question about those raptured at pretrib and those prewrath.

I am sending my Correspondence with him to you. What are your comments? Could I be asking him the wrong questions?

My reply

> > > Matt 24 is speaking to the Jews, not the Church! The virgins represent the Jewish marriage, not the Christian marriage. That is referring to the Jews warning.

Hebrews was also written to the Jews, as was most of the Old Testament. Romans was written to the Romans. I and II Corinthians was written to the Corinthians. I and II Thessalonians was written to the Thessalonians, etc. That doesn't mean that those messages were not for us.

Jesus and the apostles were Jewish, but their message is to go to the ends of the Earth. In Mt. 24:3, Jesus was talking to "the disciples." They were Jews that became the leaders of the Christian church. Verse 14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations."

The whole Bible is specially written for us upon whom the ends of the ages (Age of the Gentiles, Age of the Jews, and Age of the Church) is come. I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends (plural) of the world (lit., ages) are come." I think the Tribulation is the end of all three ages. It is the trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10).

II Tim. 3:16 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

In II Cor. 11:2, Paul said, "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you (Corinthians, i.e., Gentiles) to ONE husband (Christ the Lord), that I may present you as a chaste VIRGIN (i.e., a wise virgin) to Christ" (the Bridegroom of Mt. 25:1f).

I think the 10 virgins are the church, which is neither Jew nor Gentile, but "one body" in Christ. I Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Eph. 4:4 says, "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling."

> > > Christ set you FREE! Act like it. Not one of your prayers or confessions will ever be the thing that gets you into heaven. Jesus already did that for you.

I believe that there are two Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath. The two groups are found in Rev. 5:9 and 7:9,14. For me, I want to be a Philadelphian before whom is set the "open door" (Rev. 3:8) of Heaven before the Tribulation begins (Rev. 4:1).

The Philadelphians get crowns (Rev. 3:11). They are not given any words of condemnation. How does one get that way? by confessing his sins committed since he accepted Christ. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Why was that verse given to us if we didn't need to pay any attention to it? If we are cleansed of all unrighteousness, I think we are Philadelphian wise virgins wearing white robes of righteousness, ready to be caught up in the 1st Rapture.

I expect the Laodiceans not wearing white garments to be castaways. There is a race we must run to win the prize of being included in the first Rapture. Phil. 3:14 says, "I press toward the mark for THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS."

In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul said, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." If there was a chance that the strong believer Paul could be a castaway, it could only be because of sin. There are two kinds of Christians, spiritual and carnal. What classifies one as a carnal Christian? Sin.

In II Tim. 4:7,8, Paul said, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day (the Pre-Trib Rapture): and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

In Rev. 4:4, we see Paul, John and the other elders (other patriarchs and apostles) crowned and seated on their thrones. It follows that those that love his appearing are the group in 5:9. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They are in Heaven before the first seal is broken on the Title Deed of the Earth in Rev. 6.

Rev. 3:11 says to the Philadelphians, "Behold, I come quickly (i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy CROWN." How could we lose our crown of righteousness? Have unconfessed sin in our lives. When we accept Christ, all our "old sins" are washed away. I think sins committed after that need to be confessed to bring them under the blood of Christ.

Luke 12:46 tells us about castaways. It says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH." Isn't Mt. 24:51 talking to the same audience as Luke 12:46?

If this last verse of Mt. 24 is talking to the whole Body of Christ, Mt. 25:1f is talking to the whole Body of Christ. The first verse says, "Then (tote, at the same time, i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture, when one shall be taken and the other left, 24:40) shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom." All ten virgins went "out to meet him" (25:6). Five were ready. Five were not. When the Bridegroom (Christ) came, only "they that were READY (i.e., Philadelphians) went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut" (25:10). The foolish virgins still called Jesus "Lord," even though the door was shut.

Luke 13:24-28 says, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence (where) ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YE WORKERS OF INIQUITY. There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.." Our lamps are to be brightly lit, not sputtering and about to go out for lack of oil, symbol of the Holy Spirit. If our lamps are burning brightly, he can see where we are easily.

> > > sin is not going to keep anyone who is in Christ out of heaven.

That is true, but they might be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture instead of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Also, in the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints, only the 144,000 are called virgins, firstfruits, WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God.

Rev. 14:3-5 says, "And they sung as it were a NEW SONG (as after the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 5:9) before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel, caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 4:1,4): and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."

We see the Tribulation saints in Heaven in Rev. 7. Verses 13-15 say, "one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES (i.e., confessed their sins), and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

> > Could I be asking him the wrong questions?

No, but I disagree with some of his answer.

> > > I hope that I have helped to dissolve some of your confusion about who goes in the Rapture. Sin is not the qualification, only being in Christ qualifies one for that reward, sinner or not!
> > > Now, Paul teaches that we are saved by Faith alone, and that "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". The word "Faith" is defined in English as 'belief in . . .'. But, the Greek word being translated is Pistis. The definition of Pistis is: Action, based upon belief, sustained by confidence.
> > > So, there is an action required that is based upon your belief in the new covenant, and it is sustained by the confidence received by the continued study of the Word of God.

If we continue studying the Word of God, we will run across I John 1:1-10. It says, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have FELLOWSHIP WITH US: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, THAT YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light (i.e., sinless), and in him is no darkness (i.e., sin) at all. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM, AND WALK IN DARKNESS, WE LIE, and do not the truth: BUT IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT, WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP ONE WITH ANOTHER, AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Agape

Incoming email

I saw your web page at and thought I'd fill you in on a few things. It appears that you've heard some second hand info about the Zohar that is not accurate. The Zohar is one of the strongest witnessing tools to help show Jews that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. Because of that, it gets vilified by some people out there.

It was not generated via automated handwriting, and there's no evidence to that effect. It does not teach anyone how to make a Golem.

It does teach the Trinity, that Messiah would have 2 comings, and numerous other ideas that make it easier to show the validity of the New Testament. It refers to God having a Son, and calls Him "The Word", says the Messiah would first appear in Galilee, and that a star would signify His coming.

While modern rabbis criticize the New Testament for midrashically interpretting "almah" as "virgin", the Zohar does so in discussing SofSongs 1:3. It promotes the idea that satan is a fallen angel and in the concept of original sin. All of these are ideas that Rabbinical Jews argue against today when arguing against Christians, and the Zohar is useful in demonstrating that these ideas are rooted in Jewish tradition, and are not Christian inventions.

It's not a perfect book, and you may find it promoting a few strange ideas too. But it certainly should not be promoted as something that was "chanelled". Doing so, quite frankly, vilifies many of the New Testament ideas that it actually confirms and demonstrates as having Jewish roots. Shalom

My reply

That information on the Zohar in Pro and Con 793 was in my incoming e-mail. It was not something I said.

> > It does teach the Trinity, that Messiah would have 2 comings, and numerous other ideas that make it easier to show the validity of the New Testament. It refers to God having a Son, and calls Him "The Word", says the Messiah would first appear in Galilee, and that a star would signify His coming.

It refers to these things AFTER THE FACT. How could a thirteenth century mystical writing (the Zohar) convince someone when a first century writing (the New Testament) did not?

About the star, Mt. 2:2 says, "Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him." By the thirteenth century, this was old news. Agape

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