Pro and Con 1066

Posted 10-21-03

Incoming email, Re: how about this?

Have you considered that the day the fig tree grew leaves might be 1948 (the day Israel actually came into being), and that "this generation shall not pass" might mean the lifespan of a generation, or 70 years. Adding 70 to 1948 is 2018 and backup 7 years for the trib, we come to sometime between now and 2011 for the pretrib rapture. We then have several more Pentecosts, ascension days and Rosh Hashanahs as possibilities.

I am starting to think that Sept 2007 is not the end of the age, because the trib has to be at least 1260 days+ 5 months long and likely quite a bit longer. We have just about run out of time for that. What do you think? Thanks

My reply

> > Have you considered that the day the fig tree grew leaves might be 1948

Yes. However, to me, it doesn't fit. Mt. 24:32-34 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos. 9:10; Eze. 36:8; Jer. 24:5,6; 19:16,17); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting) is YET (ede, by this time) tender (apalos, young, full of sap, i.e., no older than 19, which Israel was in 1967), and putteth forth leaves (grows, i.e., Sinai, West Bank, Golen Heights, and Gaza Strip), ye know that summer is nigh (the Six-Day War of 1967 began June 5; summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it ('the kingdom of God,' Luke 21:31) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the Raptures, Rev. 3:8). Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

In 1948, Israel had to fight to establish the nation. The new graft had to "take." She had to establish her area covered before she could begin to flourish and grow.

Israel was grafted back into her old fig tree roots in 1948. Grafts do not grow new leaves when the scion is grafted in. It must first "take." Sap from the tree must begin to flow into the scion. Only then can leaves begin to grow. In 1948, Israel had to fight to just keep the scion alive.

How long is a generation? Can it be the same as the lifetime, 70 years? I don't see how.

Mt. 17 says, "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."

This works out to 48.33 years for one generation. That cannot represent the lifetime of Abraham. Isaac was born when he was 100. Abraham died when he was 175 (Gen. 25:7). David lived to be 70 (II Sam. 5:4).

1967 + 48 = 2015. I see no way of going beyond that.

I think the last year of the shortened Tribulation must be a Jewish Leap Year. That's the only way there could be 7 months (Eze. 39:12,13) between the Day of God's Wrath on Tishri 1 and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1. The Leap Years are 5771 (2010/11), 5774 (2013/14), 5776 (2015/16).

Subtracting the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 gives us dates to consider for the beginning of the Tribulation.

Tishri 1, 5771 (9-9-2010) - 2300 days = May 23, 2004
Tishri 1, 5774 (9-5-2013) - 2300 days = May 20,2007
Tishri 1, 5776 (9-14-2015) - 2300 days = May 28, 2009

Saturn is in Gemini now, and will be until about July 1, 2005. After it leaves Gemini in this orbit, it will not be back to that same spot for 29.5 years. 2003 + 29 years = 2032. Saturn will be in Gemini by 8-1-2032 (5792). That seems too far into the future to consider.

Since Saturn will not be in Gemini after about July 1, 2005, the only date for the beginning of the shortened Tribulation that would fit is May 23, 2004. That is Sivan 3, before Pentecost on Sivan 6, 5764. Between now and next May 23 seems to be the best choice for the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Hos. 2:9 says, "Therefore will I return, and TAKE AWAY my corn (grain, i.e., wheat) in the TIME (eth, season, when) thereof, and my wine in the SEASON (mowed, festival, assembly, due season) thereof."

The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37). Our "TIME" just might be Cheshvan 17, because that is when Noah entered the Ark and the Lord shut the door. That is coming up Nov. 12, 2003. The 2nd Rapture will be on the Feast of Trumpets, the "mowed" and the vintage.

Saturn was in Gemini and Jupiter in Leo when Noah entered the Ark, and the Lord shut the door.

Additional note: Gemini is the sign of Benjamin, meaning son of my right hand. Leo is the sign of Judah, meaning praised. Both speak of Christ.

It looks like our Rapture window could be while Saturn is in Gemini and Jupiter is in Leo. Jupiter enters Virgo August 24, 2004. Saturn is on the border of Gemini/Cancer on Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 1, 2004) and is still barely in Gemini on June 13, 2005 (Sivan 6, Pentecost). Saturn obviously does a retrograde loop between those 2 dates. She will be in the next sign, Cancer, by July 1, 2005.

I hope the Rapture will be Nov. 12, 2003. Saturn will be a morning star (Rev. 2:28) in Gemini. Jupiter will be in Leo, that stands for Christ as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. If not Nov. 12, maybe Dec. 19 (Kislev 24), "when the foundation of the LORD's temple was laid," according to Haggai 2:18,19. The names of the apostles are on the foundation of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). They are the Representatives of the Church. Saturn will still be a morning star in Gemini. Jupiter will still be in Leo.

Next Ascension Day (May 16, 2004) could also be the day of the Rapture, but Saturn will not be a morning star at that time. Everything else fits. Ascension Day would fit Song of Sol. 2:10-14 perfectly. It is in the spring, and we would ascend. Verses 10 and 11 say, "My beloved (Christ) spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, may fair one, and come away (at the Pre-Trib Rapture). For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone."

Whichever day it will be, we seem to be on the last lap of our race to win the prize of participating in the first Rapture. I Cor. 9:24-27 says, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (like the foolish virgins of Mt. 25).

Phil. 3:14 says, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Agape

Incoming email, Re: November 8, 2003

Regarding your possible pre-rapture date of as early as November 12, 2003 - something I'm reading that's a bit interesting - November 8 is a total lunar eclipse and also being hailed by New Agers as a very important date of "Harmonic Concordance".

My reply

Thanks. I had no idea what the New Agers thought, but I made myself a note of these coming eclipses I found on astronomy sites:

Lunar, total, Nov. 8, 2003, in Taurus
Saturn will be a morning star (Rev. 2:28) in the next sign to the left, Gemini

Solar, Nov. 23, 2003, in Sagittarius
Saturn will still be a morning star in Gemini

Solar, Apr. 19, 2004, in Aries
Saturn will be an evening star in Gemini

Lunar, total, May 4, 2004, in Scorpio
Saturn will be an evening star in Gemini

The 2 total Lunar eclipses I have seen were both huge striking Blood-Moon eclipses. Maybe the one on Nov. 8 will also be a reddish-orange Moon. Agape

Leonid Meteors Return! Three Separate Showers Due in November

By Joe Rao, 10-17-03 link

...This year's Leonids will offer an interesting twist, however. There will be not just one shower, but three. The first arrives Nov. 13 and the last is on Nov. 19. ...

In the early morning hours on days between the showers, a handful of extra meteors will grace the sky every hour....

Meteor showers are typically best viewed between midnight and dawn, when the side of the planet you stand on is heading into the debris stream....

The Leonids are so named because the shower’s radiant point, from where the meteors seem to fan out, is located within the constellation of Leo, the Lion....

The first encounter -- unusually early for the annual Leonids -- is forecast to occur on Nov. 13 at 12:17 p.m. EST....

The second encounter is expected almost a full week later at 2:28 a.m. EST (7:28 GMT) on Nov. 19, when Earth will sweep to within about 33,000 miles (53,000 kilometers) of a trail of comet dust ejected in 1533....

The Filament is a meteor stream consisting of the sum of many dust trails over many centuries, all having spread together so that individual trails are no longer recognizable....

Jenniskens is touting the Filament as "The Fireball Shower."

As with all predictions, these rates assume dark skies. City dwellers could see considerably reduced rates.

Act 3 could last about 24 hours -- very lengthy compared to Acts 1 and 2. The final production will be centered around 12:25 a.m. EST (5:25 GMT) on Nov. 19. This timing will highly favor western Africa and western Europe, though the northeastern United States and eastern Canada would also be rotating into a favorable position to see peak activity as well....

Coming Nov. 8: Second Total Lunar Eclipse of 2003

By Joe Rao link

...During totality, although the Moon will be entirely immersed in the Earth’s shadow, it likely will not disappear from sight. Rather, it should appear to turn a coppery red color, a change caused by the Earth's atmosphere bending or refracting sunlight into the shadow....

This eclipse has all the makings of being a rather colorful event....

December Radients

comets, link

Geminids (GEM) December 6-19 2003
Maximum Dec. 14

Note: It's amazing that the Geminids and Leonids come around every year to remind us of Gemini and Leo.

Incoming email, Re: The Bringer of Old Age

I was reading the last P&C which said that saturn travelled around the Sun every 29.5 years. What do we know about Jesus' ministry? It began at about age 30 and it brought him to His earthly Death. Curious that He started His work at 30 and it brought upon Him the weight of old age; sin. Agape

My reply

Hope you are feeling better these days.

Talk about old age, as the Creator, he has been around since before the beginning.

I think Jesus, the Lamb of God, was born in BC 5, while Saturn was in Aries, the Ram. That's fitting. A year later, in BC 4, Saturn was already in Taurus.

Jesus ascended while Saturn was in Gemini, the twins. It looks like he will come for his Bride while Saturn is in Gemini too.

Acts 1:9-12 says, "while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men (probably Moses and Elijah) stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven. THEN RETURNED THEY UNTO JERUSALEM."

It looks like Moses and Elijah will return to the earthly Jerusalem around the time that the Lord takes us up to the heavenly New Jerusalem in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape


By Marilyn Agee

I don't think so. I expect the Pre-Wrath Rapture on Tishri 1, exactly 7 Jewish months before the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1, the 1st day of both the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Years. Regnal, because Christ is King of kings, Sacred, because He is Lord of lords. The saints are not to suffer God's wrath. After the Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 38:18-20), the Jews bury the dead 7 months to cleanse the land for the Lord's return in glory (Eze. 39:12,13).


On the Day of God's Wrath, He will take the Tribulation saints to Heaven before his Wrath hits Earth. Isa 63:2-4 says, "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I HAVE TRODDEN THE WINEPRESS ALONE; AND OF THE PEOPLE THERE WAS NONE WITH ME: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance (1st day of His millennial kingdom) is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come" (on Tishri 1). The year may turn out to be 5771 (2010/2011).

Psa. 7:1-11 says, "O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust (chacah, to flee for protection): save (yasha, RESCUE) me from all them that persecute me, and deliver (natsal, cause to ESCAPE, i.e., in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) me: Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. O LORD my God, If I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah. ARISE, O LORD, in thine ANGER, LIFT UP THYSELF because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the JUDGMENT (at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven) that thou hast commanded. So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes therefore RETURN THOU ON HIGH. The LORD shall JUDGE the people (in Heaven): judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me. Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end (the saints in Heaven are judged for rewards at the same time that unbelievers on Earth are given their just rewards for their unbelief); but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart. God JUDGETH the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."

II Peter 3:10-12: "But the DAY OF THE LORD will COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the DAY OF GOD, wherein THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

In 1 Thess. 1:10, we are told "to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1 Thess. 5:9 says, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ."

I Thess. 2:31 says: "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and awesome DAY OF THE LORD comes." The small rocks fall like figs off a fig tree on the Eve of Trumpets (Rev. 6:12f). The DAY OF THE LORD begins on the Feast of Trumpets (Rev. 6:17). All 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth on that day when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place before the trumpet judgments hit Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5).

Rev. 14:14-16 is talking about the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It says, "their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one (Jesus Christ) sat like unto the Son of man (this is the 2nd Day of the Son of Man, Luke 17:22-24), the 2nd Rapture), having on his head a golden crown (this is Coronation Day in Heaven), and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud (not putting his feet on the ground this day), Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

After the Tribulation saints are safe in Heaven, another sickle casts the unbelievers left on Earth "into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Rev 14:17-19 says, "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Incoming email, Re: Pro and Con 598

Re: Chesvan 23. I have been a student of your book and your website. I have found something interesting in I Kings 12:32. Jeroboam was a wicked king of Israel. He ordained a feast on the eight month (Chesvan) on the fifteenth day of the month. He (like Satan) was trying to falsely copy the true feast of Tabernacles. The feast of Tabernacles was from the 15th to the 22nd. The 23rd was called the Shimini Atzaret (the 8th day). That day is the very middle of the tribulation, Chesvan 23, 5765, November 7th, 2004 according to your book. I always wondered if there would be a foreshadowing of that date mentioned in the Bible. I (we) have found one.

The feast of Tabernacles is referred to as a "season of our joy". This copycat period will be a "season of grief". On the feast of Tabernacles they celebrate the death of Liv Yaton (the false Messiah--leviathan--7 headed beast). At this time the leviathan will be just getting into full swing. The feast of Tabernacles is a festival of lights---this will be a season of darkness. The contrasts abound.The information about the feast of Tabernacles I gleaned from Joseph Good's Hatikvah Ministries. I hope you also find this interesting. It is another date to"lock-in" your time sequence. Agape

My reply

> > Jeroboam was a wicked king of Israel. He ordained a feast on the eight month (Chesvan) on the fifteenth day of the month.

Tabernacles starts on the 15th of Tishri, the 7th month.

> > The 23rd was called the Shimini Atzaret (the 8th day). That day is the very middle of the tribulation, Chesvan 23, 5765, November 7th, 2004 according to your book.

Because of the passage of time, I have just recently revised my chart. Please read the new article about the two Raptures on my Home Page. Instead of the Tishri 1, 5768, Jewish New Year, end of the shortened Tribulation, I went to the next New Year, 5771.


--Pre-Trib Rapture while Saturn is a morning star (Rev. 2:28) in Gemini, maybe Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 12, 2003), when Noah entered the Ark, or Kislev 24 (Dec. 19, 2003), (see Haggai 2:18,19), the Eve of Hanukkah, or Adar 14 (March 7, 2004), Purim

--Beginning of the Tribulation, Sivan 3, 5764 (May 23, 2004), 2300 days before Tishri 1, 5771 (Sept. 9, 2010)

--Mid Trib, May 23, 2004 + 1260 days = Sunday, Nov. 4, 2007 (23 Cheshvan, 5768)

--End of shortened Tribulation, 1st day of Christ's millennial kingdom, Pre-Wrath Rapture, Judgment Seat of Christ, saints rewarded in Heaven, God's Wrath hits unbelievers left on Earth, Tishri 1, 5771 (Sept. 9, 2010)

--Second Advent, Nisan 1, 5771 (Apr. 4, 2011), 1st day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year

In Mt. 24:37, Jesus said, "But as (hosper, just as, EXACTLY LIKE) THE DAYS OF NOE WERE, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Since the coming of Christ on the first of the two Days of the Son of Man will be at the Pre-Trib Rapture, I looked at the sky chart (at YourSky) for BC 2386 (1656 AH) on Nov. 12 at midnight. Saturn is a morning star in Gemini, the twins, and close to the Full Moon. Jupiter is in Leo, the lion. Here is the chart:

Compare that with the sky chart for Wednesday, Nov. 12, 2003 (Cheshvan 23, 5764), at midnight. Saturn is a morning star in Gemini and close to the 3-days-past-full Moon in Taurus. Jupiter is in Leo. Here is the chart for Nov. 12, 2003.

It looks like this sky is very similar to the sky on the day that the Lord shut Noah into the Ark. To me, that looks like a very good time for the Pre-Trib Rapture.

However, Haggai, 2:18,19 gives us another date. It says, "Consider (suwm lebab, take to heart); now from this day and upward (maal, on high), from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider it. Is the seed (Jesus is the seed of the woman; we are wheat, part of the Body of Christ) yet in the barn (Jesus', Mt. 13:30)? yea, as yet the vine (Jesus is the vine; we are the branches, John 15:5), and the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7), and the pomegranate (the Bride, Song 6:7), and the olive tree (with Gentiles grafted in, Rom. 11:24), hath not brought forth (nasa, been taken up): from this day will I bless you." Kislev 24 is Dec. 19, 2003, the Eve of Hanukkah, the Feast of Lights. Here is the sky on Dec. 19, 2003 at midnight:

Saturn is in Gemini. Jupiter is in Leo. The Moon is 3 days past Half. It is not in the winter, which starts Dec. 22, or on Sunday. It is Friday.

There is one more feast day while Saturn is a morning star, Adar 14 (Sunday, Mar. 7, 2004)--Purim. Here is the sky on March 7. Saturn is setting near midnight here and is gone from view on March 9.

Note: If Saturn does not have to be a morning star, Ascension Day, May 16, 2004 will work for the Rapture. It fits Song of Solomon 2:10-14.

Incoming email

I still need a clarificaton.
Maybe I am not asking the question clearly.

What I don't understand is this,

if there are 2 raptures; the first being that of the "bride", then are you saying that the Christians that are the "bride" that died over the centuries are going to be part of the "bride" ? Obviously the answer is yes right? but.......

If so, then are you saying that the Christians that died over the centuries that were not living for the Lord (and if they were alive today would not go up in the first rapture) will not partake in the things that the "bride" will ? How can this be? THey are already in heaven, aren't they?

In other words, this idea that there is the "bride", and then there are the one's left behind to suffer in the Tribulation makes sense. What does NOT make sense is, how about the Christians that died, and would not have been counted worthy to escape if they were on the earth now? What are they doing while the "bride" is dealt with ??

Do you understand what I am asking? Thanks

My reply

> > If so, then are you saying that the Christians that died over the centuries that were not living for the Lord (and if they were alive today would not go up in the first rapture) will not partake in the things that the "bride" will ? How can this be? THey are already in heaven, aren't they?

They are in Heaven. All believers that have died are in Heaven now. I assume that a portion of those believers will be in the Bride group, and the rest will not. God is fair. One of his attributes is perfect justice. Maybe the ones that are not of the Bride group will not get their resurrection bodies until the day of the Second Rapture.

Heaven is just part of the rewards that will be given the Bride group. Rev. 3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Those in the first Rapture will say, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth" (Rev. 5:9,10).

Rev. 7:14,15 tells us about the Tribulation saints that are caught up in the Second Rapture. It says, "he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." Notice that crowns and kings are not mentioned here.

Each believer will receive more or less rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, whatever they deserve. I believe that the Second Rapture will be on the same day that the rewards are handed out in Heaven while the unbelievers on Earth receive their just deserts for their unbelief.

Rev. 11:17,18 says, "We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (Second Advent is 7 months future, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (this is Christ's Coronation Day). And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (i.e., at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

> > What does NOT make sense is, how about the Christians that died, and would not have been counted worthy to escape if they were on the earth now? What are they doing while the "bride" is dealt with?

They will probably be waiting for their resurrection bodies. Those of the first Rapture get their resurrection bodies the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18).

Daniel 12:1,2 says, "at that time (when the False Prophet will come to his end (Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (the Day of God's Wrath), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (on the same day, but before noon, Zeph. 2:1-5) thy people shall be delivered (including the 144,000 in Rev. 7), every one that shall be found written in the book. Agape

Incoming email: ZionsCry PROPHECY NEWS

...Albert Einstein once told a group of rabbis in New York City, that he had done a rabbinical study of ohr, the Hebrew word for light in Genesis 1:3 and maohr , in Genesis 1:14, and arrived at his conclusions about relativity. He noted that the two terms are not alike. The light in v.3 appears to be the Divine source, while the light in v.14 appears to be of a different order. Maohr means from light – thus emanating from the ohr . Rabbis believe the ohr to be the primeval light – source of the shekinah glory....

Incoming email, Re: I can prove in 2 seconds

From Rich Pope,:

I can prove in two seconds Jesus isn't the Messiah.

The Messiah has to be from the house of David.

But if Jesus has no earthly father, he cannot trace his lineage to David because tribal lineage is ALWAYS through the father.

Even if one claims Joseph is Jesus' adoptive father, this doesn't count. Jewish Law does not allow for tribal lineage to pass to adoptive sons.

So, no human father, no tribal lineage, no house of David, no messiah.

It's just that easy.

My reply

You may say "tribal lineage is ALWAYS through the father", but that doesn't make it so.

In Gen. 3:15, the LORD God said, "I will put enmity between thee (the serpent) and THE WOMAN, and between thy seed (the False Prophet) and HER SEED (Jesus Christ); it (her seed) shall bruise thy head (on the Day of God's Wrath, 'his right eye shall be utterly darkened,' Zech. 11:17), and thou shalt bruise HIS heel" (at the Crucifixion).

The Messiah is a man (i.e., HIS heel). This man is physically "HER SEED," the seed of the woman, Mary's seed. He has two complete natures, man and God.

Isa. 9:6 explains. It says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Not only is Jesus Christ the Messiah, he is "the Lord from heaven." I Cor. 15:47 says, "The first man ('Adam, which was the son of God,' Luke 3:38) is of the earth, earthy; the second man (Jesus Christ) is the Lord from heaven."

To be saved, we have to believe in Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

I hope you get it right before your life is over. You are pulling the wool over your own eyes. Agape

   Pro and Con 1067   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110

© 1996-2003, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-21-03