Pro and Con 1069

Posted 11-1-03

Incoming email

Check out
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2003/sherry1030-1.htm
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2003/sherry1030-2.htm
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2003/sherry1030-3.htm

My reply

Hi Sherry;
While you are thinking about whether there is a Rapture before the Tribulation or not, your might want to give this some thought. How did the 23 crowned elders that were seen with John in Rev. 4:4 get to Heaven? Heb. 11:39,40 says, "And these all (Old Testament heroes of the faith, David, etc.), having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: GOD HAVING PROVIDED SOME BETTER THING FOR US, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT." When they are made perfect, we will be made perfect.

After John, an "elder" (III John 1:1), is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, he is crowned and seated on a throne with 11 apostles and 12 patriarchs of Israel, all of which have their names on the gates and foundations of the heavenly New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:12-14).

Rev. 3:10,11 says to the Philadelphians, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I WILL GIVE THEE A CROWN of life. Behold, I come quickly (he comes quickly at the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 2:5; 22:20): hold that fast which THOU HAST ('a crown'), that no man take thy CROWN."

Rev. 4:10 says, "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne (in Heaven), and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their CROWNS before the throne". Each of the 24 elders is out of ONE NATION--ISRAEL. The apostle Peter is another one of the "elders" (I Peter 5:1).

Now, let's listen to Rev. 5:8,9. It says of the "saints...they (the saints in Heaven) sung a NEW SONG (only sung after the two Raptures, here and in Rev. 14:4), saying (to Christ), Thou art worthy to take the book (given to him after the first Rapture, and not after the second Rapture, Rev. 7:14, 14:4,5), and to open the seals thereof (he doesn't open the first seal until the Tribulation begins in Rev. 6): for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US (the saints) to God by thy blood OUT OF (ek) EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION," These saints are not just the 24 elders of Israel. They are out of all nations.

Please tell me how these Philadelphian saints out of ALL NATIONS, before whom the "open door" of Heaven was set (Rev. 3:8), get to Heaven before the Tribulation begins in Rev. 6? before Christ breaks the first seal?

This word "ek," meaning OUT OF, is also used in Rev. 3:10. It says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (hupomone, patient endurance), I also will keep thee from (ek, OUT OF) the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which SHALL COME (after this) upon ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM (NOT YOU, who have kept the word of his patience) that dwell upon the earth." Agape

Israel Antiquities Authority’s Report Deeply Flawed

By André Lemaire
(a href="http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/bswbba2906f2.html">link

The israel antiquities authority (IAA) recently formed a committee to decide whether the James ossuary inscription and the Yehoash (or Jehoash) inscription are authentic or forgeries.... I therefore hesitate to comment on the work of the IAA committee, but its conclusions, announced at a widely publicized press conference, are at variance with my own conclusions regarding the inscription on the James ossuary.*...

Therefore I have no choice but to critically assess the committee’s work....

In more than 10 percent of other inscriptions, the James ossuary’s spelling YWSP occurs.7 For Dr. Ilan, however, the spelling of Joseph on the ossuary is “very rare and raises doubt about its authenticity.” This conclusion is not justified by the facts. We cannot say that a phenomenon is “very rare” when it occurs in more than 10 percent of cases. If Dr. Ilan’s argument were applied to all other inscriptions, more than 10 percent would be declared forgeries—or at least be considered suspicious.

She errs just as badly, or worse, with the name James. It is spelled Y’QWB in the ossuary inscription. Dr. Ilan claims that “the spelling Y’QWB, with vav, was found on two ostraca at Masada but never on any papyrus or ossuary of the period.” But this is an error, one that is repeated in her book.8 If she had simply looked at the concordance in Rahmani’s catalogue,9 she would have seen that, out of the five occurrences of this name on ossuaries, three, a majority, are spelled Y’QWB, as on the James ossuary.10 The situation is precisely the opposite of what Dr. Ilan wrote in her committee statement (and published in her book). The spelling on the James ossuary is more frequent on ossuaries than the alternative spelling.

Dr. Ilan presents an interesting reconstruction of what the alleged forger did. Based on what two other committee members (Dr. Orna Cohen and Dr. Avner Ayalon) wrote—that original ancient patina was found in the second half of the inscription (Cohen) and in the last letter of the inscription (Ayalon)—Dr. Ilan “suggest[s] that the forger came into possession of an ossuary bearing an authentic inscription ’brother of Jesus’ ... Such an ossuary could easily fire the imagination of a forger, who added the name of the brother of Jesus Christ to the ossuary to raise its value.” This suggestion is based on Dr. Ilan’s notation that “All the epigraphists have already concluded that the hand which inscribed the words ’James son of Joseph’ is not the same one as that which inscribed the words ’brother of Jesus.’” (Italics supplied.) Without specifying who “all the epigraphists” are, we can only guess that Dr. Ilan is referring to the opinion of Rochelle Altman, already mentioned. For Dr. Ilan, I obviously do not count as an epigraphist, nor do Professor Frank Cross of Harvard, Father Joseph Fitzmyer formerly of the Catholic University of America, Dr. Ada Yardeni (author of The Book of Hebrew Script) and Joseph Milik, a prominent Dead Sea Scrolls epigrapher—all of whom see only one hand in this inscription. So much for “all the epigraphists.”...

Professor Ronny Reich is designated in the report as an “archaeologist—[an] expert on [the] First and Second Temple periods.” Professor Reich examined the inscription “with naked eyes,” and did not find any difference in the hands of the inscription (in contrast to Dr. Ilan). He noticed that the engraver carved the letters with the aid of a ruler and carved them “from the ruler downward ... [the] same method as Second Temple period scribes.” Whoever wrote the inscription, he says, was a speaker of Aramaic. Insightfully, Professor Reich noted that “if the inscription had read ’Yosef [Joseph] son of Ya’acov [James] brother of Yeshua [Jesus],’ no one would have raised an eyebrow, and the inscription would have quietly entered the statistical lists without a further thought.” Professor Reich is almost certainly right on this point. All this attention—and suspicion—is attributable to the fact that New Testament figures may be mentioned....

In short, the James ossuary inscription does not raise any paleographic, linguistic or orthographic (spelling) problems, and there is no reason on these grounds to cast doubt on its authenticity. This is underlined by Dr. Reich’s initial conclusion: All signs point to a Second Temple period date. Clearly that was also the reaction of Dr. Ilan when she first saw the inscription; she raised no question as to its authenticity until I suggested the identity of the deceased (James) in my BAR article. Clearly it is not the inscription itself that raises problems but the identification of the deceased with a historical personage mentioned in Christian tradition. The easiest and simplest way to reject this interpretation is to cast doubt on the authenticity of the inscription.

The tendency to cast doubt on Northwest Semitic inscriptions is not new. The same thing was done with the Mesha Stele, discovered in 1868, which contained the first mention of the God of Israel and of an Israelite king, Omri. Several articles were published in scholarly reviews that cast doubt on its authenticity, the last one as late as the 1940s.16 In 1993, the discovery of the Tel Dan inscription with its reference to BYT DWD, “House of David,” was followed by several articles in scholarly journals, some of which doubted David’s existence and proposed a different interpretation of these letters. Professor Giovanni Garbini questioned the authenticity of the inscription because it seemed “too good to be true.”...

Dr. Orna Cohen is a conservator, “specializing in identification and restoration of ancient patina.” She describes three factors that lead her to conclude that the inscription only “suggests forgery.” (Italics supplied.) This seems to mean that she is not sure the inscription is a forgery.

The first factor she cites is that “the patina in the letters is grainy ... not similar to natural patina.” How did this patina get there? According to Dr. Cohen, “It appears that ground chalk mixed with water was used to coat the letters.” She then jumps on an evil motive without considering whether other, less nefarious, reasons may explain this grainy patina—perhaps it was the accidental result of a cleaning.

Why is this grainy patina here? Dr. Cohen guesses, “Probably to camouflage the intervention of the inscription.” (Italics supplied.) Again, she is not sure. But she assumes the worst (to camouflage a forgery), without considering other, more benign, possibilities.

Then she drops a bomb. She finds that the same yellowish patina that is on the side of the ossuary is also in the incisions of the letters of “brother of Jesus.” Her exact words are: “A microscopic examination revealed the same yellowish patina as on the ossuary surface inside the letters ’brother of Jesus.’” If I understand this correctly, it means that she finds the last two words of the inscription to be authentic! And if the last two words are authentic, then, based on the paleographic, linguistic and orthographic considerations outlined above, the entire inscription is very probably authentic. Paleographical analysis shows that the entire inscription was engraved as a continuum. And linguistically it would be difficult to explain an ossuary that was inscribed only “brother of Jesus,” with nothing else, but waiting to be completed by a forger.

Dr. Cohen does not reach this conclusion, however. Instead, she finds that “even though part of the inscription may be original, the inscription in its entirety is a fake.” (Italics supplied.) This sentence is completely illogical and reveals her prejudices....

I’m afraid little confidence can be placed in the IAA’s conclusion on the ossuary....

What can account for this internal contradiction? I think I know. ... I said, “You know, if someone were to ask me what your view was, I would say that you believed that there was a 75 percent probability that the ossuary inscription was a fake.”

“Well,” he said, cogitating, and then under his breath: “Well, maybe 80 percent.”

I mentioned this to another committee member, who told me the secret: “The committee decided that we had to reach a firm conclusion.” In other words, for whatever reason, they had to reach a level of certainty that simply wasn’t there.

I also spoke with Uzi Dahari, the chairman of the committee and deputy director of the Israel Antiquities Authority. He had no doubt about the committee’s conclusion. “This isn’t 99.9 percent sure,” he said. “It’s 100 percent.”

Few things in the world of archaeology reach that level of certainty. Is this one of them?—H.S.

Incoming email, Re: Which P/C?

I pray you are doing good, and that Ed is strengthened in the Lord! I always wonder how you if there is even a day longer than usual before a new Pro/Con is posted! You are precious to all of us!!!

The reason I am writing is because I am looking back in the Pro/Con’s for 2 posts. The first is the one where you compared the scriptures about the two raptures in two columns. It was such an eye opener that I printed it out, but think I gave it to someone. Now I can’t find it to reprint. A dear saint who doesn’t have a computer would like to see it & I want to mail it to her.

The other is a letter someone sent you that they planned to send to their loved ones who didn’t know the Lord about the rapture. It was so well written, that I printed it out and again have given it away. The time frame of this one is somewhere in 2000 to early 2001. The time frame for the 1st could be the same or even into 2002.

I am hoping one of your readers will remember these two posts, and can direct me to the right P/C.

You have no idea as to the importance of the P/C’s for all of us out here. I thank God for you, and the other saints who write to you!!! Agape

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

I'm ok, but since I'm getting older, my balance is not as good as it was. Ed is barely able to take 6" steps. It takes him a long time to get anywhere. We went to a grocery store. He had his wheeled walker. It took him so long to get into the store and then to do a bit of shopping that he said four people offered to get him a motorized cart. He told them thanks, but he needed to exercise. If he don't, he will be in a wheelchair. It is critical that he keep as active as possible. I just have to be patient and give him all the time he needs to get somewhere.

It has rained in San Diego and some places around Los Angeles, Thank you Lord. This is helping firemen to get some fires under control. Now, there is a danger of mud slides in the burned areas. Seven, including the San Bernardino fire nearest me and threatening Big Bear, are not controlled yet. It is supposed to snow at high elevations tonight. The temperature has dropped drastically. We got a quick swish of rain here this evening. We have suddenly gone from air conditioning to heat. Many of the firemen got caught without warm enough clothing. It's hard for them to take the right things with them when the weather changes that much so fast. It is supposed to be 53 here tomorrow. Out came my jacket and long pants. Fall has finally arrived.

I'm sorry about the files. I don't have a clue as to where they are. If I could remember some distinctive word or phrase, I could go on google and do an advanced search by limiting the search to my web site, but the times I have tried that were not very productive. I repeat lots of things when answering different e-mails. What I have had better luck at is having google search the net for a certain subject. The Pro and Con I wanted has shown up several times, saving me having to hunt the needle in the haystack.

Like you, I just hope someone saved those particular files will know where to find them. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Saturn the bringer of old age

On Gustav Holst's "The Planets" a well known classical piece, this is the title one of the movements.

Interesting title, isn't it? Old age>> Death>> Heaven.....

My reply

Yes. Saturn has been characterized as Old Man Time, because it is the slowest moving of all the planets. It takes 29.5 years for it to complete one orbit of the Sun. Imagine that long of a "year."

That long orbit is why I am convinced that Saturn's being in Gemini in the days of Noah and in Virgo in the days of Lot are important clues to when the two Raptures will take place, the Pre-Trib Rapture while Saturn is in Gemini, the Pre-Wrath Rapture while it is in Virgo. It doesn't happen so often that it wouldn't be distinctive. Wish I had looked into this long ago. The Internet made it possible.

Sharon is now talking about the alternative peace plan. Even Wolfowitz is getting in the act. Here are some links.
---
Sharon: We're talking to PA
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1067489843232

10-31-03 - Israel is holding talks with Palestinian officials, but not on the prime ministerial level, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Thursday night. However, he believes Israel is on the verge of progress in the talks.

"I believe that we are on the verge of making a breakthrough and entering a path of peace and quiet," he told an economic forum in Tel Aviv.
---
Wolfowitz supports Ayalon-Nussiebeh peace plan
By Aluf Benn and Sharon Sadeh, Haaretz Correspondents
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/355611.html

10-31-03 - The United States Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz expressed his support Thursday for the "People's Voice" initiative drawn up by former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon and President of the Al-Quds University Sari Nusseibeh.
---
The Rapture seems close. Hope it's Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 12, 2003), anniversary of the day Noah entered the Ark.

The Sun is still shooting CMEs our way. Here's a beautiful aurora caused by one, and the info on where I found it. There are other pictures, but I liked this one best.

Solar storm surge 'not over yet'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/default.stm

Scientists warn that the spurt of solar activity which caused spectacular polar lights may continue.
---
Aurora
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/default.stm#

Incoming email, Re: Who is this King of glory

10-31-03
From: Vladimir Rumyantsev
St. Petersburg, Russia
bigroad@olvex.ru

Dear Friends!
Excuse me please, let me attract your attention material about Lord Jesus Christ. I hope it will be interesting for you.

Excuse me please my mistakes in English, I am sorry I don't speak English. God bless you.

My reply

Thank you for the excellent article.
Agape (God's kind of love, the very best), Marilyn

His reply

Thank you.
Is it possible to edit and correct material about Lord Jesus Christ "Who is this King of glory", and to publish as an article to the God's glory.
God bless. Vladimir

My reply

Of course. I will put it on Pro and Con 1069. Emphasis and paragraphs are mine. Agape

\

Who is this King of glory?

God the Father said about God the Son: "Yet have I set my King upon My holy hill of Zion" (Psalm 2:6). That's why everywhere in the Holy Scripture in the Old Testament, where we are meeting the word "King" concerning to God, God the Son is speaking.

"I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King" (Isaiah 43:15); "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God. I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" (Isaiah 44:6,24).

"Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob" (Isaiah 41:21); "As I live, saith the King, whose name is Lord of hosts" (Jeremiah 46:18); "Moab is spoiled, and gone up out of her cities, and his chosen young men are gone down to the slaughter, saith the King, whose name is the Lord of hosts" (Jeremiah 48:15).

"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon the throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple.
Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts" (Isaiah 6:1,5);
"These things said Isaiah, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (John 12:41), about God the Son, Lord Jesus Christ.

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jeremiah 23:5);
"But the Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting King: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation" (Jeremiah 10:10);
"For the Lord most high is terrible; He is a great King over all the earth" (Psalm 47:2);
"For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods" (Psalm 95:3);
"Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle.
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this King of glory? The Lord of the hosts, He is the King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10);
"Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises.

For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding" (Psalm 47:6,7);
"Rejoice greatly. O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: He is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass" (Zechariah 9:9);
"Nathanael answered and saith unto Him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel" (John 1:49);
"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King" (John 19:14);
"And set up over His head His accusation written, this is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37).

"Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Timothy 6:15);
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Revelation 17:14);
"And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords" (Revelations 19:16).

God the Son is the King, but the glory of God the Father and God the Son is one, because God the Father and God the Son is one God: "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11).

God the Son is speaking:
"Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am he: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no Saviour.
I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King" (Isaiah 43:10,11,15).

God the Father is speaking:
"Thus saith God the Lord, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein" (Isaiah 42:5).

God the Son and God the Father are two different Personalities, God by nature, and one God by God's decree:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deuteronomy 6:4);
"I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7);
We must to know about two different Personalities God by nature, and the God's decree, definition "God is one" we must to keep in our mind. Son of God is another Personality, God by nature, like His Father.

God the Holy Spirit is speaking:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke Me?" (Numbers 14:11);
"But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit" (Isaiah 63:10).

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). It is the answer for all questions.

Everywhere in the Holy Scripture God the Son is the King. There is in the Holy Scripture about Son of God is speaking:
"But unto the Son: and, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Hebrews 1:8,10).

And in the Old Testament: "I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF" (Isaiah 44:6,24).
And please see there: "the foundation of the earth, the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Hebrews 1:8,10) - the works of Son of God's hands, and "I am the Lord that maketh all things ALONE, … MYSELF"!

We must try to exclude all contradictions in our faith.
"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon the throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple.
Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts" (Isaiah 6:1,5).
"These things said Isaiah, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (John 12:41), about God the Son, Lord Jesus Christ, the King, the Lord of hosts.
"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest need to the things which we have heard" (Hebrews 2:1).

God the Son and God the Father are two different Personalities, God by nature, and one God by God's decree: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deuteronomy 6:4); "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7).

We must to know about two different Personalities God by nature, and the God's decree, definition "God is one" we must to keep in our mind. Son of God is another Personality, God by nature, like His Father.

Excuse me please, but God the Father isn't the King, because God the Father said to us, that His Son is the King: "Yet have I set my King upon My holy hill of Zion" (Psalm 2:6);
"And the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever" (Micah 4:7);
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18);
"And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed" (Daniel 7:14).

Son of God is the everlasting King, but the glory of God the Father and God the Son is one, because God the Father and God the Son is one God:
"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:11).

"Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:24), the kingdom, where Son of God is the everlasting King:
"But the Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting King" (Jeremiah 10:10);
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8);
"Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).
God the Son isn't the temporary King, He is the everlasting King.

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Updated 11-1-03