Pro and Con 1085

Posted 1-1-04

May this be our happiest year ever

My reply to incoming e-mail omitted due to its length. Subject: no pre-tribulation rapture

> > I thank you for all your teachings on the pre-tribulation rapture, particularly other specifics with regards to signs of the zodiac and their positioning during similar times and periods of significant biblical events in history - all very true and relevent, and a different perspective not really considered or even studied before. However, your placement of the rapture timing being pre-tribulation is wrong

>> Do not believe anything written in this book without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your kind words. I'm sorry, but I can't print all of this section of your book. It is far too long and I could not change the double spacing except manually line by line. I tried every way I could think of with no luck. I think your points will come out in the excerpts I insert as I answer.

I think there are two Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath. The first group is out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Rev. 5:9. The second group is out "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" in Rev. 7:9. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14).

The Philadelphian church that Jesus had no words of condemnation for has the "open door" set before it in Rev. 8:8. They are wise virgins that go with the Bridegroom when he comes (Mt. 25:1f). They have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to keep their lamps burning brightly. The Laodiceans are foolish virgin believers without white wedding garments. They are cut off and left behind the first time. By the time of the second Rapture, they will have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14).

Luke 12:47 says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Because some can be left behind at the 1st Rapture, Jesus warns us in Luke 21:24-36. He said, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE (i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture) all these things that shall come to pass (in the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man."

People say that the word Rapture is not in the Bible, but that's an English word. It could have been used in the translation, but "caught up" was chosen by the translators. The Greek word harpazo is in I Thess. 4:16. It means getting caught up forcefully. That is what we mean by the word Rapture. BTW, the word "Trinity" is not there either. That doesn't mean that the concept is not there.

> > I have become more and more uneasy with the content of Matthew 24 and the parts of Daniel and Revelation that discuss the saints being warred against and overcome. I could not reconcile these passages with a pre-tribulation rapture

That's because they apply to the Tribulation saints. There are Old Testament saints, Bride saints and Tribulation saints, but only two Raptures here in the end of the age. The bulk of the Old Testament saints are raptured with the Bride saints. "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:40).

> > When God's purpose and plan become foundational in the study of end-time events, the Church's presence on earth at the end of the age will be seen as mandatory. Any theology which removes the Church from the earth during the last seven years of the age fails to incorporate the primacy of God's reason for creating the Church, which is to overcome Satan in the power of Jesus Christ, thereby demonstrating His wisdom.

Where does Scripture say that God's reason for creating the Church was to overcome Satan in the power of Jesus Christ here on Earth? Acts 15:14 says, "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to TAKE OUT (lambano, to take away or up; i.e., by a Rapture) of them a people FOR HIS NAME." Eph. 3:10 says, "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers IN HEAVENLY PLACES might be known BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God."

Rev. 3:14 is the last time the word church appears in the Bible. After that, the Tribulation saints are in view.

> > The timing of the day of the Lord, as we will see, dictates the timing of the rapture. If the Church misunderstands rapture timing, she will misunderstand her role on earth at the end of the age. Mistaken teachings about the timing of the rapture lead to mistaken understanding of God's plan for the Church.
> > If we subscribe to teachings which obscure God's plan for His Church a the end of the age, we will have no vision and may be in danger of stumbling and even falling away as the events of the end of the age overtake us.
> > Rapture Timing - Key Points
> > Although rapture timing is not the central issue of THIS BOOK, it impacts the basic thesis because if the Church is not here during the last three and one-half years of this age, the thesis falls apart.

We need to try to determine what Scripture means, and let the chips fall where they may.

> > it is Satan's intent to keep the Church unaware, unprepared, and deceived about her role on earth at the end of the age. He seems to know the Bible, and he must be aware of Romans 16:20 which says the Church will crush him underfoot. He must know that we win and he loses. But it will be a fight to the finish and he will drag as many into the lake of fire with him as he can.

What is the church's commission? Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15,16). I think the church, as a whole, understands this pretty well.

There is a time coming when no man can work. In John 9:4, Jesus said, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." When do you think that night will come?

2Pe 3:10 says, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." It sounds like the Tribulation might be called NIGHT, doesn't it?

This Day of the Lord is the first day of Christ's millennial rule. It is also the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture (before noon, Zeph. 2:3-5) and the Day of God's Wrath. It ends the shortened Tribulation with a bang, the noise heard around the world.

During the first 1260 days of the Tribulation, "it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev 13:7). What do you think the Tribulation saints can do then? Is this "night"?

During the Great Tribulation, Rev 13:15 says of the False Prophet, "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." What can the Tribulation saints do then? Is this "night"?

> > 1. In Matthew 24:13, Jesus says, speaking to His disciples: "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." Remember that He is answering the questions of His disciples in Matthew 24:3 regarding the end of the age, so that when He refers to the "end," He is referring to the end of the age.
> > 2. Matthew 13:39 defines the harvest as the end of the age: . . . and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
> > 3. Revelation 14:14-16 describes that harvest. Notice that it comes at the end of three and one-half years (forty-two months) of persecution o the saints: ..."I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." And He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth; and the earth was reaped (Revelation 14:9-16).
> > Jesus told His disciples that the one who endures to the end of the age will be the one who is saved. He also defined the end of the age as the harvest.

There is a Pre-Wrath Rapture. That does not preclude there being a firstfruits Rapture before the Tribulation begins.

> > These are His words, plain and simple, regarding His disciples' questions about the end of the age. That harvest, which He describes in Revelation 14:14-16, comes after a specific time period of three and one-half years during which the saints are given over to the antichrist to be warred against and overcome. During this time they are counseled to persevere, to keep the commandments of God, to keep their faith in Jesus, and specifically NOT to take the mark of the beast.
> > This is the primary teaching in the Bible on the timing of the rapture for the Church-at-large, because Jesus gave it to His disciples throughout the age without qualification.

Rev. 14:14-16 is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. After it takes place on the first day of the Millennium, the vine of the Earth (the unbelievers) is cast "into the great winepress of the wrath of God" in v. 19. At this time, all believers are in Heaven, all unbelievers are on Earth. Those in Heaven receive their rewards. Only the unbelievers left on Earth suffer the Wrath of God.

In Matthew 24:13, Jesus says, speaking to His disciples: "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." I agree that this is the end of the age. It ends on the first day of the Millennium. The Pre-Wrath Rapture happens before noon on that day (Zeph. 2:2-5).

> > Matthew 13:39 defines the harvest as the end of the age: . . . and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

The angels gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and cast them into a furnace of fire. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." At this point, the righteous are all in Heaven, so they can shine forth as the Sun, which is in the heavens.

Mt. 13:38-43 says, "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (lit., age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. "

> > Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:15-16).
> > 1. Jesus' disciples who would be alive at the end of the age are told in this passage that they will see the abomination of desolation. That suggests something about rapture timing. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel is not revealed until three and one-half years before the end of the age. Jesus was therefore clearly indicating that the rapture does not come until sometime after this, because He said that His disciples alive at that time of the end would see the abomination of desolation. Jesus therefore places the timing of the rapture sometime during the last three and one-half years of the age. This is the same point that Paul stresses in his letters to the Thessalonians. The fact that those in Judea are specifically addressed does not mean that only those in Judea are addressed.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is before noon on the Day of the Lord that begins the millennial reign of Christ. Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (fulfilled when Israel became a nation in 1948); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (cathar, be absent; i.e., raptured out) IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast." The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea at noon. The Tribulation saints will be raptured before noon.

> > The content of Paul's two letters to the Thessalonians is specific regarding the timing of the gathering (rapture) of the saints. These Scriptures reveal that the rapture will occur at a time known as the day of the Lord. That day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness (the antichrist) have taken place. This again automatically places the rapture sometime in the last three and one-half years of the age, because Scripture is clear that the antichrist will not be revealed until the midpoint of the final "week" of Daniel at three and one-half years before the end of the age.

> > It is essential that we understand that Paul's letters to the Thessalonians establish two main points. First, that the gathering of the saints will occur at a time called the day of the Lord. Second, that this day of the Lord will occur sometime during the last three and one-half years of the age. These are among the clearest and most specific Scriptures in the Bible defining the timing of the rapture. ...They locate the rapture sometime during the last three and one-half years of the age on the day of the Lord.

> > 1. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 settle the fact that the Church is not destined for God's wrath. But 1 Thessalonians 1:6, 2:14, 3:3-4, and 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 clearly state that we are destined for tribulation and affliction. If we are confused about the difference between tribulation and wrath, it follows that we will be confused as to the timing of the rapture.
> > and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10). For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

In II Thess. 2:3, the Day of the Lord will not come until after "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." That's why verse 1 says, "Now we beseech you, brethren (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the Rapture), and by our gathering together "(episunagoge, a complete collection; i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Bride of Christ).

The word "apostasia," translated "falling away" really means DEPARTURE (i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture), and was so translated in early Bibles, including Tyndale's translation, Cranmer's version, The Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible.

The False Prophet will be revealed when the 7-year peace covenant is strengthened as the Tribulation begins (Dan. 9:27), and that won't take place until the DEPARTURE, the Pre-Trib Rapture, has taken place. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

II Thess. 2:7,8 says, "he (the Holy Spirit indwelling Christians) who now letteth (Old English for hindereth) will let (hinder), until he be TAKEN OUT (ginomai ek, taken out from among) of the way (i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture). And THEN (i.e., after the Rapture) shall that Wicked (the False Prophet) be revealed."

The pattern is first the departure, then the revealing of the False Prophet, "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (v. 9).

Jesus called believers the salt of the Earth. Salt retards the growth of leaven in bread making. Likewise, we Christians, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, restrain the revealing of the evil one, the False Prophet. After we are gone, the 7-year peace covenant will be strengthened and the False Prophet revealed.

Mat 5:13 says, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out (as the foolish Laodicean virgins will be), and to be trodden under foot of men" (during the Tribulation).

Nu. 10:1-4 is a pattern for the two Raptures. The "LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (i.e., both), all the assembly shall assemble (Heb. 12:23) themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes (elders, 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

John is one of the 24 elders. When he is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, the other 23 elders are caught up. All 24 are crowned and seated on thrones in Rev. 4:4. When the elders are caught up, the Bride saints out of every nation are caught up. They are in Heaven witnessing Christ being given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6.

In Phil. 4:1, Paul said, "Therefore, my brethren (believers) dearly beloved and longed for, MY JOY AND CROWN, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved."

Just as there were two trumpets in the pattern in Moses' day, there are two trumps of God in our days. The first "trump of God", of I Thess. 4:16, is to call up the Bride saints. The "last trump", of I Cor. 15:51,52, is to call up the Tribulation saints.

Of the Tribulation saints, only the 144,000 Israelites will join the Bride group. Why will they? Because they are "virgins" without fault before the throne of God (Rev. 14:4,5). Even though they are Tribulation saints, they will join the wise virgin group in Heaven that were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> > We are destined for tribulation but not for wrath. We will be delivered from tribulation and rescued from wrath on a day known as the day of the Lord.

Individually, we have tribulations to test our faith, but after we are gone, the whole world will be tried during the 70th week of Dan. 9:27. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (hupomone, patient endurance), I also will keep thee FROM (ek, out of, as in Rev. 5:9) the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM that dwell upon the earth" (the Tribulation saints and unbelievers).

> > (1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3).
2. Consider the context of the sentence, "Now as to the times and epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you." The times and epochs of what? What has Paul just been talking about? He's been talking about the rapture! What he is referring back to regarding "times and epochs" is the rapture and can only be the rapture, otherwise the sentence structure makes no sense at all. And then he goes on to say, "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night." This is a crucial point. He has just identified the "day of the Lord" as the time of the rapture.

There is a group that will "ESCAPE" (Luke 21:36), and a group that "SHALL NOT ESCAPE" (I Thess. 5:3).

Pay particular attention to "ye" and "they" here. There are two groups, believers and nonbelievers. 1Th 5:1-8 says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren (believers), ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night (Tribulation). For when THEY (Tribulation saints) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE(ekpheugo, flee out; i.e., not be raptured). But ye, brethren (believers), are not in darkness (i.e., not in the Tribulation), that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye (believers) are all the children of LIGHT, and the children of the DAY: we are not of the night (the Tribulation), nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others (unbelievers especially); but let us watch and be sober. For THEY that sleep sleep in the night; and THEY that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us (believers), who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation." The Pre-Trib Rapture is our "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13).

> > 1 Corinthians and the Day of the Lord
I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:4-8).

The Pre-Trib Rapture is one of the two Days of the Son of Man, also known as the Day of Christ.

Phi 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the DAY OF CHRIST."

Phi 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the DAY OF CHRIST, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

Luke 17:22-30 says, "he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN (the Pre-Trib Rapture), and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the SON OF MAN be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOE (Pre-Trib Rapture), so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) OF THE SON OF MAN. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF LOT (the Pre-Wrath Rapture); they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14-17). Verse 17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come." During that night or morning, the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place.

Isa. 57:1-3 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, vanish, escape; i.e., are Raptured), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (acaph, gathered, removed, evacuated, i.e., raptured), none considering that the righteous is taken away (acaph, gathered, removed, evacuated) from the evil (i.e., the Tribulation) to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore." When the Rapture takes place, the Tribulation is near.

In the Preview of the Rapture, Rev. 1:10 says, "I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY" (kuriake hemera, belonging to the Lord day; i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture after which he saw Christ in heaven standing among the churches). This is the only time that "kuriokos hemera" is used. It differs from the words in Acts 2:20. It says, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable DAY OF THE LORD (hemeran kuriou) come."

The first Rapture takes place on the Lord's day. The second Rapture takes place on the Day of the Lord. They are not the same.

There is a chance that the Pre-Trib Rapture (ascension) will take place on Ascension Day (Sunday, May 16, 2004; Iyar 25, 5764). That is the anniversary of "the Lord's day" (of ascension). Saturn will still be in Gemini.

> > the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

It rained 40 days and 40 nights. Jesus ascended on the 40th day after the Resurrection. Will we ascend on the 40th day after Resurrection Day too?

> > on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed (Luke 17:29-30).

I agree. This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is the day they will see the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30) and the Wrath of God poured out on unbelievers left on Earth.

> > The Seventh Trumpet and the Harvest
> > Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
> > And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (Matthew 24:31).
> > For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
> > The things that take place at the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation match the things that other Scriptures say take place at the harvest, or gathering of the saints, announced by trumpet blast.
> > The seventh and last trumpet is the dividing line between what seems to be Phase 1 and Phase 2 of God's wrath. This is the time of the main harvest

If that was true, the saints would go through the Wrath of God, which starts at noon on the Day of the Lord that begins the Millennial reign of Christ.

The saints are caught up before the 7th seal releases the 7 trumpet judgments on unbelievers left on Earth. The "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes" (Rev. 7:9) before the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8. That seal releases the 7 trumpet judgments. In Rev. 7:14, we see that "These are they which came OUT OF (ek, as in Rev. 3:10; 5:9) great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

After the saints are all safely in Heaven, the 7th seal is broken. "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" (Rev. 8:1). At the same time, there is silence on Earth. Hab. 2:20 says, "the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." I think this is when Christ is seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The silence is out of respect for the seating of the judge.

All believers are in Heaven, and all unbelievers are on Earth at this time, before the 1st trumpet judgment sounds.

Rev. 11:17-18 shows that all believers are given their rewards in Heaven at the same time that the unbelievers on Earth get their just deserts for their unbelief. It says, "We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Rev. 8:2 says, "I saw the seven ANGELS which stood before God (the Lord Jesus Christ); and to them (the angels) were given seven trumpets." These are not the same as the first "trump of God" (singular) that calls up the Bride saints in I Thess. 4:16. They are also not the same as the "last trump" of God (singular) that calls up the Tribulation saints in I Cor. 15:51,52. Both of the trumps of God sound before the 7 angels are given 7 judgment trumpets. All of the saints are in Heaven receiving their rewards when the 7 trumpet judgments sound.

> > His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other (Matthew 24:30-31).

The KJV says 'from one end of heaven to the other." Those saints that were taken to Heaven before the Tribulation are gathered from all over Heaven to the "general assembly and church of the FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:23) on the Day of the Lord that begins the millennial reign of Christ.

Mark 13:27 adds another important fact. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (saints of the Pre-Trib Rapture that are already in Heaven). Saints of both Raptures are gathered to the general assembly in Heaven before God's wrath is poured out on unbelievers left on Earth.

> > And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and SITTING ON A CLOUD WAS ONE LIKE A SON OF MAN, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." And He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth; and the earth was reaped (Revelation 14:14-16).

> > These passages seem consistent in identifying the "coming in the clouds" with the main harvest taking place at the seventh and last trumpet.

This is the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52. I think it takes place before noon on the Day of God's Wrath. There can't be a 3rd group raptured, because the 2nd Rapture is the "last trump" of God.

Nu. 10:1-4 says, " the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (Heb. 12:23, that's the day of the 2nd Rapture). And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." The first "trump of God" is the first Rapture.

> > consider the harvest of the elect as a three-phase harvest of three separate events, both in terms of time and the nature of those harvested. The Bible describes a first-fruits harvest at the beginning of Chapter 14 and a main harvest at the end of Chapter 14. A gleanings harvest is not so readily apparent.
> > However, there is a curious parenthetical statement at the sixth bowl, "Behold, I am coming like a thief. . ." I believe this statement identifies the harvest of the gleanings.

I don't think any believer goes through any of God's Wrath.

> > I look forward to your reply and for this to be posted on your Pros and Cons

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