What are the cherubim in Gen. 3:24, Eze. 1 and 10?
That was my burning question in my early days of Bible study. I searched 7 long years without finding a sensible answer that I could swallow. That was in spite of reading about an 18" stack of man's books about the Bible each week from the Seminary Collection at the BIOLA library, La Mirada, CA, campus. In dispair, I asked the Lord to help me understand all the deep things of the Bible, everything. Only after that could I figure out what the cherubims were, and what the flaming sword was.
Ezekiel's visions are very symbolic. Translating them must have been quite a chore, for I don't think the translators of the KJV understood them either. Understanding some prophecies completely seems to have been meant only for those living during the latter part of this age.
For instance, Jer. 23:18-20 says, "who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: IN THE LATTER DAYS ye shall consider (biyn, understand) it perfectly."
Man couldn't understand that an asteroid was going to impact Earth on the Day of God's Wrath until modern astronomers discovered that an asteroid existed.
I think the cherubim in Eze. 1 and 10 are the four terrestrial planets, lively things that move, not actual living creatures. I started looking up lots of the original words, and got my first glimmer when I realized that Nogahh, translated "brightness" could indicate sunshine. In Eze. 1:1, Ezekiel said, "the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God." His vision is of THE HEAVENS.
In Eze. 1:4, Ezekiel said, "I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud (i.e., our Asteroid Belt), and A FIRE INFOLDING ITSELF (i.e., the Sun in the center of the outer cloud of asteroids), and a brightness (sunlight) was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire."
THE AMBER SUN, A FIRE INFOLDING ITSELF
In between the Sun and the cloud of orbiting asteroids were four moving things that flew like birds. However, they flew in four concentric rings, wheels within wheels. Behold, "ONE WHEEL UPON THE EARTH by the living creatures, with his four faces" (1:13). The Earth is one of the four moving things. It does not turn aside erratically, as a real bird might do, but flies in a smooth circle as it orbits in the four directions of the compass it faces in turn. The Earth has four faces, it faces north, south, east and west.
As the Israelites camped around the Tabernacle in the wilderness, banners were placed at the compass points. The lion on Judah's standard was placed to the east. The ox on Ephraim's standard was placed to the west. The eagle on Dan's standard was placed to the north, and the man on Reuben's standard was placed to the south. This helps us understand Eze. 1:10, where these faces are mentioned.
As the four terrestrial planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars, orbit the Sun inside the cloud of the Asteroid Belt, Heaven orbits outside the Asteroid Belt. Eze. 1:26-28 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the terrestrial planets) was the likeness of a THRONE, as the appearance of a SAPPHIRE stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus Christ) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about (the 7 rings surround Saturn). As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."
I talked myself out of this every time I thought it sounded like Saturn until I was writing about Rev. 4:2,3. It says, "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a THRONE was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he (Jesus Christ, both the first [YHVH, king of Israel], and the last [YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer],Rev. 1:17; 22:13,16; Isa. 44:6) that sat was to look upon like a jasper (FIRST stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (LAST stone in the breastplate): and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald" (Judah's stone).
As I compared this with Eze. 1, I grabbed my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and looked up "sapphire" (Eze. 1:26). It means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. Something like electricity ran all over me as I whispered to myself, "So it's true."
According to Josephus, a Pharisee priest, the lampstand represented the Sun and naked-eye planets. In Ant. III. VI. 7, he said it "spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, uncluding the sun among them." In Wars, V. V. 5, he said, "Now the seven lamps signified the seven planets; for so many there were springing out of the candlestick. Now, the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year."
Since the Sun's orbit describes our year, it is easy to see that the planets orbit too. The lamps stood for (1) Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter and (7) Saturn.
When Moses saw God (YHVH of hosts, the redeemer, the pre-incarnate Christ) on Mt. Sinai, which represented "Sani," Heaven, "there was under his feet as it were (figurative language) a paved work of a SAPPHIRE STONE, and as it were (figurative language) the body of heaven (i.e., heavenly body) in his clearness (tohar, glory)" (Ex. 24:10, RSV). Christ's feet are on the sapphire stone, which I think represents Saturn.
Astronomers have wondered if Saturn has a rocky core. Look what Job 38:37,38 (LXX) says, "who is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has bowed the heaven...to the earth (from here, we see the rainbow-like rings)? For it (Heaven) is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, AND I HAVE CEMENTED IT AS ONE HEWN STONE TO ANOTHER."
Zech. 3:9,10 (LXX) says, "behold, I bring forth my servant The Branch (i.e., Jesus Christ). For as the stone (i.e., the sapphire, Saturn) which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes (orbs, circles; i.e., rings)." Saturn has 7 rings.
Zech. 3:9 (Stone ed. Tanach) says, "behold, the [foundation] stone that I have placed before Joshua (Hebrew name of Jesus) -- seven eyes (orbs, i.e., rings) toward one stone." The 7 rings are around one stone, Saturn.
The planets are spaced at intervals that are mathematically explained by the Titius-Bode Law. I think this is pretty good proof that there once was a planet where the Asteroid Belt is now.
5. Asteroid Belt
If the Rapture would take place next May 17, the Cassini Mission would seem to fit into the overall plan. If all goes well, the Cassini spacecraft will arrive at Saturn about July 1, 2004. It will orbit Saturn for the next 4 years too.
In John 14:2-4, Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am (i.e., on Saturn), there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know (they knew of Saturn way back in BC years), and the way ye know." Nasa knows the way now. Cassini proves that.
I think the 4 wings (kanaph) in Ezekiel's visions represent the 4 quarters of a planet. Rev. 20:8 says, "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH."
I believe that the cherubim on either side of the mercy seat represent Jupiter and Uranus. They are on either side of Saturn. God spoke to Israel from between the cherubim. Ex. 25:22 says, "And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIMS."
What is in the Ark? two tablets of stone with commandments on them. I think they stand for the two asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 that will get dumped out on Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 11:18,19 says, "thy wrath is come...And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
Zech. 5:1-4 tells us of the curse (the flaming sword of Gen. 3:24), i.e., the binary asteroid that is twice as long as wide. "This is the curse that goeth forth (orbits) over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Tribulation Pope claims infallibility): and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."
Eze. 10:2 says, "And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels (to the Asteroid Belt, between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter) even under the cherub (Satan, Eze. 28:13-16), and fill thine hand with coals of fire from BETWEEN THE CHERUBIMS, and scatter them over the city." Satan's asteroid home is named Wormwood (Rev. 8:11). Agape
If the main part of the Ark represents Saturn, and the mercy seat goes "above upon" - Ex. 25:21 - the Ark, and the 2 cherubim are a part of the mercy seat - Ex. 25:18-19 - and the cherubim's wings, i.e. orbits, are "covering" (farther out from) the mercy seat and the Ark - Ex. 25:20- and their faces (as we would see them reflecting the sun) are "to another; toward the mercy seat" - Ex. 25:20 - looking back in toward a smaller orbit, i.e., Saturn.
Also, do we still count Satan/Lucifer as a cherub, and if so, should we still be counting his former planet, now the asteroid belt, as a planet in our counting of planets and orbits?
What do you think of all this?
I think the rings are their orbits. Their wings are different. Sorry, I should have explained those in the last e-mail. They are symbolic, so we need to use our imagination on this. Of the cherubim (i.e., the 4 terrestrial planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars), Eze 1:11 says, "their wings (kanaph, quarters) were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies."
The terrestrial planets fly, so symbolically, they can be likened to birds flying. All four fly in concentric orbits around the central Sun. In this example, all four are lined up, as if on one spoke of the wheel, with their wings touching. Therefore, they are spaced at regular intervals on the spoke. Farther out in space are the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn, the last two naked-eye planets.
It's easy to imagine these planets lined up as the lamps on the candlestick. The western lamp was to always be kept burning. It represented the Sun. From west to east, there is the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. To the left of the Earth are 3 lamps. To the right of Earth are 3 lamps. If the lamps had wings, they could reach out and touch each other. That is the kind of picture we have in Ezekiel 1 and 10. The planets are lined up and spaced at regular intervals.
Eze 1:23,24 says, "under the firmament (expanse of space between them and Saturn) were their wings (kanaph, quarters) straight (yashar, upright), the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies. And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood (i.e., stood still), they let down their wings." The wings are only to space the planets at regular intervals.
The astronomer's symbol for Earth is a circle with a cross in the middle of it. Besides suggesting that this is the planet where Jesus died on the cross, it looks like the north pole of the planet marked into four quarters. Rev 20:8 uses this kind of symbolism. It says, "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH."
I like to picture the terrestrial planets in Ezekiel's visions as oranges with their skin split vertically into four quarters, two quarters in the front and two quarters in the back. Eze. 1:23 says, "And under the firmament were their wings straight (yasher, upright), the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies." Think of the orange and its peel. Two quarters of the peel cover the front of the orange. Two quarters of the peel cover the back. Imagine putting a mark at the center of each side to attach wings. Make sure the mark shows on both sides of the verticle cut.
Then, to simulate wings, imagine pulling the two quarters of peel off the back of the orange. Match the marks and attach them to each side of the orange with toothpicks. Pivot them a bit and they become imaginary wings.
If all four are lined up with their wings touching, they will be spaced at regular intervals like the lamps on the candlestick.
Eze. 1:24 says of the cherubim, "when they stood, they let down their wings. We can imagine the peel pieces put back on each orange as them folding their wings. Now we are back to the picture of the cherubim lined up like the lamps on the candlestick.
Above their heads, i.e., farther out in space, is Saturn, where the "likeness of a throne" is seen "as the appearance of a sapphire stone (meaning dear to the planet Saturn)." The likeness of a man on the throne stands for Christ.
> > If the main part of the Ark represents Saturn
How about the mercy seat representing Christ's throne on Saturn?Ex. 25:22 says, "there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIMS."
If Christ's throne is the mercy seat (i.e., on Saturn), the two cherubim on either side are attached to the mercy seat. Therefore, to me, they can only represent Jupiter and Uranus.
The word "Ark" is the Hebrew "arown," a box, ark, chest or coffin. A coffin wouldn't represent Heaven. De. 31:26 says, "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee." The two stone tablets with the 10 commandments were in there also as a witness against sinners.
Those 2 stones seem to represent the 2 asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 that will get dumped on Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. Christ is crowned that day. Then, he sits a judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Rev. 11:18,19 tells the story. Notice that the Ark is in Heaven, so it must not represent Heaven itself. The mercy seat and cherubim are not mentioned. That picture is not necessary here.
Rev. 11:18,19 says, "the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ARK of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
I think this is when the 2 asteroids hit Earth. They were foreshadowed by the 2 stone tablets in the Ark. Here, the stones seem to be dumped out on Earth, because the commandments were broken. Zech. 5:1-4 tells us about this binary asteroid that is twice as long as wide. It is the curse that enters into the houses of the Beast and False Prophet and destroys them.
> > Also, do we still count Satan/Lucifer as a cherub, and if so, should we still be counting his former planet, now the asteroid belt, as a planet in our counting of planets and orbits?
Yes, Satan is called a cherub. He lived on a cherubim. At some times, we count Satan/Lucifer's former planet. At other times, we don't. It is presented to us both ways. In Eze. 28:13,14, the 10 planets are represented by 10 stones of fire." Earth's stone is a diamond (number 3). Satan's stone is represented by the onyx (number 5). Christ's stone is represented by the sapphire (number 7).
Satan/Lucifer is the angel of light (Isa. 14:12) that has "been in Eden" as the serpent (Eze. 28:13). He was originally from the planet Rahab that split and formed the Asteroid Belt before Adam was created.
Isa 51:9 says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 52:10); awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut (lit., split) Rahab (Satan's planet), and wounded the dragon (Satan)?"
Satan now lives on an asteroid named Wormwood (Rev. 8:11) that will impact Earth on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. Before that time (at Mid-Trib, Rev. 12:9), Satan and his fallen angels will have been cast down to Earth.
Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here (Babylon)? and whom hast thou here (the False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (i.e., Wormwood)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq, not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."
Satan is referred to as the covering (cakak, defending, i.e., guarding) cherub that the Lord set to the east of Eden. Gen. 3:24 says that God "drove out the man (Adam); and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims (i.e., planets that rise in the eastern sky), and a flaming sword (the asteroid Satan now lives on) which turned every way (rotated and orbited), to keep (shamar, guard) the way of (or, to) the tree of life (which is now in Heaven, Rev. 22:2).
In Eze. 28:13, we are given 9 gem stones plus gold. I think they stand for the original 10 planets that God supposedly flung from his 10 fingers. Psa 8:3 says, "When I consider thy heavens, the work of THY FINGERS, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained."
If we divide the 10 planets by 2, we get 5. Satan's planet Rahab was number 5--Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars and Rahab. It was in the midst of the 10 stones of fire, as the Asteroid Belt is now. Agape
"I'll stick with the Bible. Gen. 1:1 says, "In the beginning God CREATED the heaven and the EARTH." Gen. 1:2 says, "And the EARTH was (hayah, lit., became) without form (tohu, ruin), and void (bohu, desolation); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
I just want to point out that you are sticking with a bad translation. The original Hebrew starts "beresheet" which literally translates as "during the beginning of..."
Young's Literal Translation of the Bible starts: "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth..." There are even more surprises as you read it. The KJV and NIV sound quite different.
I think that you were right to say that our understanding of Scripture is faulty. Most English speakers are working from bad translations. Regards
When Jesus Christ was on Earth, the Septuagint (LXX) was used. Jesus didn't correct Gen. 1:1. It says, "In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth."
Gen. 1:1 in Green's Interlinear says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." In Heb. 1:10, it says, "You, O Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth. And the heavens are the works of Your hands."
For "beginning," in Gen. 1:1, Strong's Bible Dictionary says, "7225 re'shiyth...from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing."
Of 7218 ro'sh, Strong's says, "from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.):--band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top."
Both words are used in Prov. 8:22-25. The second explains the first. The LXX says, "I will remember also to recount the things of old. The Lord made me the BEGINNING (reshiyth) of his ways for his works. He established me BEFORE time was IN THE BEGINNING(rosh), BEFORE he made the earth: even BEFORE he made the depths; BEFORE the fountains of water came forth: BEFORE the mountains were settled, and BEFORE all hills, he begets me."
The word translated "before" is Strong's "6924 qedem keh'-dem
or qedmah kayd'-maw; from 6923; the front, of place (absolutely, the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward):--aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever(-lasting), forward, old, past. Compare 6926."
None of these suggest to me that re'shiyth should be translated "during the beginning of," as you said.
> > The KJV and NIV sound quite different.
Well, let's see. Gen. 1:1 in the KJV says, "IN THE BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth."
The NIV says, "IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth." They are almost the same. I think "heavens" is what is meant, and that includes Heaven.
The LITV agrees with the NIV. The LITV says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". I can stick with that. Agape
You quote the Septuagint as an english translation. Did you translate that yourself?
Every time I come upon a commentary on the ORIGINAL Hebrew, I always encounter the word "beresheet" (I have no idea about the true hebrew). I've never seen "7225 re'shiyth...Just goes to show what I know about the subject.
But all this says is that this part of the Bible can be interpreted in many ways. Who can say whose interpretation is correct?
I can't read Hebrew and don't translate it. I use Young's Concordance, Strong's Concordance, Gesinius' Lexicon, Thayer's Lexicon and Green's Interlinear.
One reason I don't use Young's translation is because I don't have it on e-sword now. I used to have it on e-sword, but needed more memory free to prevent crashes so took off what I used the least. More than anything else, I need the KJV and Strong's Concordance, my main study tools, to operate reliably. I have Brenton's LXX, ISV, KJV, KJV+, LITV and NAB on e-sword now. That's enough. I have lots of other versions, including the Stone Edition Tanach, in hard copies for reference.
Note: e-sword is free. Download from: www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
> > I meant that NIV and KJV sound different from Young's Literal Translation, not from each other (duh).
Forgive me, I didn't mean to do that.
The words "made" and "created" mean two different things. The Hebrew word translated "created" in the KJV is "bara." It means original creation, where nothing is formed of existing materials. When things formed of previously existing materials is meant, the word "asah," translated "make" in the KJV, is used.
Bara is only used in 3 instances in the first chapter of Genesis, for original creation of the heavens and the Earth, for the creation of animal life, and for the creation of Adam and Eve. I'll use the Literal Version (LITV).
(1) Gen. 1:1 says, "In the beginning (re'shiyth, the first, in place, time, order or rank, beginning) God CREATED (bara, original creation) the heavens and the earth."
(2) Verse 21 says, "God CREATED (bara) the great sea animals, and all that creeps, having a living soul, which swarmed the waters, according to its kind; and every bird with wing according to its kind.". (3) Verse 27 says, "God CREATED (bara) the man in His own image; in the image of God He CREATED (bara) him. He CREATED (bara) them male and female. ."
The contrast between bara, created, and asah, made, is shown in verse 7. The LITV says, "God MADE (asah, made from existing materials) the expanse, and He separated between the waters which were under the expanse and the waters which were above the expanse. And it was so."
The beginning was before Earth was created. "In the beginning" is also used in Prov. 8:22-30 (LITV). It says, "Jehovah possessed me (the pre-incarnate son of God) IN THE BEGINNING (re'shiyth, the first, in place, time, order or rank, beginning) of His way, from then, BEFORE His works. I was set up from everlasting, from that which was BEFORE THE EARTH. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no springs heavy with water. BEFORE the mountains were settled, BEFORE the hills, I was brought forth; BEFORE He had made (asah) the earth and the fields, or the highest part of the dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle on the face of the deep, when He formed the clouds above, when He made the strong fountains of the deep, when He gave to the sea its limit, that the waters should not pass beyond His command; when He decreed the foundations of the earth, then I was at His side, like a master workman; and I was His delights day by day, rejoicing before Him at every time."
If the creation in the beginning was BEFORE the Earth was created, Gen. 1:1 was BEFORE verse 2.
The Hebrew word "hayah," to be, is only used when there is a change. It is not used, but understood and supplied by the reader when there is no change. Notice that a change comes in verse 2.
Gen 1:1 (LITV) says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
Verse 2: "and the earth being (hayah, lit., became, used to show that a change took place; i.e., the pre-existing Earth became) without form and empty, and darkness (no hayah here for there was no change; "was" can be supplied by the reader) on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters". Verse 3: "then God said, Let light be! And there was (hayah, lit., became) light." Agape
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