Pro and Con 1098

Posted 2-21-04

Incoming email, Re: prayer request from Lucille Wagner

Would you please pray for our daughter. She went to the doctor today because of some symptoms she has been having. He ran some tests. One she got the results from right away. It did show positive for something, which the doctor said was not a good sign. But until all tests are in next week sometime he won't say anything more. My daughter has a beautiful family! Three beautiful boys and a husband who would miss her terribly. I can not even imagine what it would be like without her. Please pray that God will heal her. We are looking up and waiting for His soon return! Agape In Jesus

I AM THAT I AM

by Ron Rhoades
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/1998-December/000816.html

...M. Buber translates 'I will be as I will be', and expounds it as a promise of God's power and deliverance. That something like this is the purport of these words is shown by what follows, `Yahweh,...has sent me to you: this is my name forever'. The full content of the name comes first; the name itself follows." -New Bible Dict. ;431

"God does not call himself "I Am" in this passage. Not even in the LXX. The Hebrew imperfects refer to what God will "become." Compare the use of the same verb in 3:12. The Hebrew verbs are imperfect and denote action that is incomplete, and therefore ongoing....
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I AM THAT I AM, by Rolf Furuli
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/1998-December/000790.html

...EHYE normally refers to the future. In fact, all occurrences of this form except, possibly Job 3;16; 10:19; 12:4; 17:6 and Ruth 2:13 have future meaning. (To translate EHYE in Exodus 3:14 as "I am" both ignores its lexical meaning and its use as future, and is clearly idiosyncratic.) Therefore, your suggestion "I WILL BE WHAT/THAT I WILL BE" is much better than the renderings of most modern translators; I think you should delete "THAT" and keep "WHAT". The rendition "I will be what I will be"...
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Is God's name Jehovah or Yahweh or what?
http://www.biblebell.org/mbag/mailbagba.html

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM (hayah) has sent me to you.'" Ex 3.14...
God said to Moses...) Thus you shall say to the children of Israel... HAYAH has sent me to you. YHWH Elohiym is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations. Extracted from Exod 3.14 & 3.15... In either case (Yeshua or Yehoshua) Christ's name means Yahweh is salvation.

Thus, the name Yeshua tells you two altogether beautiful facts about Christ...

He is Yahweh, the LORD God, AND
He is Yahweh, YOUR salvation!!!
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Bible Seminar
http://www.biblestudents.co.uk/lesson10.htm

LORD when capitalised in KJV, RSV, etc., is actually the Hebrew word Yahweh, meaning "I am who I am", or "I will be who I will be". ...

Note in Isaiah 45:18 (previous page) "I am the LORD".
LORD when capitalised in KJV, RSV, etc., is actually the Hebrew word Yahweh, meaning "I am who I am", or "I will be who I will be".
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What's In A Name?
http://www.epiphanyma.org/ched/series/series01-6.htm

...In Genesis 15, Abram is promised a son. Abram addresses God by the name "YHWH", which means, " I AM THAT I AM, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE"....
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WHAT IS GOD'S NAME?
http://www.theisraelofgod.com/iogname.htm

...According to bible scriptures, Jesus is the Father’s name, for Jesus said in John 5:43 that he comes "in his father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." Therefore "Jesus is the name of the Father! In fact, while praying to the Father in John 17:6, Jesus stated "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me…" Also at John 17:25-26, Jesus stated, "O, righteous father, the world hath not known thee…and I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it."

Another important name to address is Jehovah (or Yahweh). Exodus 6:2-3 mentions god’s name as Jehovah. It stated that God appeared unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob by the name of God almighty (El Shadday in Hebrew), but by his name Jehovah he was not known to them. The Hebrew characters translated here as Jehovah are the same ones found at Exodus 3:15 for "The Lord." But wait a minute! Can this really be Jesus name before he was given the name Jesus by the Father? It most definitely is. Isaiah 12:2 states, "…the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song: He also is become my Saviour! (See St. John 4:42, and Philippians 3:20). Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, Jesus Christ and Jehovah are the same. In the Old testament he is called Jehovah, in the new testament he is called Jesus.

Jesus is the God who instructed Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and all of the prophets. Concerning Moses and the children of Israel in the wilderness, the bible says this "for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them: and that rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 1-4) Jesus even said "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I (meaning Jesus) have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37) Even at St. John 1:18 it states, "No man has seen god at anytime; the only begotten Son, which is I the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." So if no one has seen the Father at any time, that means Moses and the elders of Israel saw Jesus (Jehovah) in Exodus 24:9-11. Jesus also states before Abraham was born, some time in 1800 B.C. Jesus was there. This is what Jesus said to a group of Jews of his day "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself,…" (John 8:56-59) These examples clearly show Jesus existed a long time before his birth thru Mary, when he walked the earth as a man.

Another thing worthy of mention is the name Lord, as it relates to Jehovah. In Exodus 3:13-15, Moses asked god what should he tell the children of Israel when they ask what is the name of the God of their fathers. God replied, "I AM THAT I AM." This quote is translated from the Hebrew words EHEYE ASHER EHEYE. Asher is a relative pronoun equivalent to the word "that". Eheye is a 1st person conjunction of the Hebrew verb hayah which means "to be, to exist, to become." Hence, we have a presence – one who exists eternally, one who is. "God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, THE LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob hath sent me unto you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."...

Maybe some are not yet convinced that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the Son’s name and not the Father’s. In Psalms 118:14, 21-22, we can read "The Lord is my strength and song, and is become my salvation…I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." The stone which is become the head of the corner is Jesus Christ! "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." That name is Jesus. (Acts 4 verses 10-12)

My comments

I am who I will be makes sense to me.

The Son of God was the Angel of the Lord that met with man in the Old Testament. John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Any time God was seen, it was the Son of God. It was the Son of God that was in the human body of Jesus, which was also the Son of God.

Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his humanity from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH, Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH, the King of Israel), and I am the last (YHVH of hosts, the Redeemer); and beside me there is no God."

In Rev 22:13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH King of Israel) and the offspring of David (Yeshua/Jesus), and the bright and morning star."

II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself".

Isa. 48:16-18 says, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (1), and his Spirit (2), hath sent me (3, the Son of God). Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! (i.e., at Mt. Sinai) then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea".

Incoming email from Ralph Ramsey, Re: Universal Salvation

I believe this piece by Charles Stanley.

However, I don't think he really believes it. How can a person believe this is true if he believes, and of course, he does, that God will eternally torture those He does not save "by grace"?

God tells us to "love our enemies." Is this "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Or do you think that He will eternally and everlastingly torture the majority of humans He does not save by grace and "predestinate" [Romans 8:29 and 30] "to be conformed to the image of his Son."? ---and just SAY that He still loves those whom He is eternally punishing anyway? Is that not kind of ghoulish?

Or do you think God "predestinates" just some and does NOT predestinate the rest? Any logic here?

I think the Good News of the Bible is that it REALLY has answers to these questions, and God predestinates everyone, finally, to salvation I don't understand people who REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT AND REPROACH THOSE WHO DO BELIEVE IT. OF COURSE THE BIBLE SAYS WE THAT WOULD "SUFFER REPROACH" FOR PREACHING THAT "GOD IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT BELIEVE: [1 Timothy 4:10] In the very next verse, "These things command and teach"! How many preachers are commanding and teaching Universal Salvation? Is it not important? Is it OK to disobey God's commandments? And even argue AGAINST God's commandments?

I would rather suffer the reproach of men [or women] than suffer the reproach of God.

The Good News of the Bible is that God is the Saviour of all men; it is His will that none should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance 2 Pet 3:9] "And who hath resisted His will?"

So, what about all those verses in the Bible where the people DO perish? [And there are MANY--check your Concordance] So it takes death, hell and in some cases, the lake of fire. Fine!

But look at the conclusion in Rev 5:13 and in Rev 21:24-27 [where even the "kings of the earth" who fought against God at Armageddon [possibly]and Rev 22:2 where the healing of nations [Gentiles] is provided for. [Also Romans 15:8-11]

It will be like this verse:in Hosea 13:9: --- "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help." And later, "O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. 2) Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we render the calves of our lips [sacrifices and offerings=calves offered in the temple"].

This prophetic prayer will yet be asked, and Romans 11:26 will yet be God's answer: "And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Who else but Jesus Christ?], and SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS from Jacob [all Jews!]!"

And then, of course, a FINAL universal Salvation in Romans 15:9 "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles [the rest of the world's people, non Jewish], and sing unto thy name. 10) And AGAIN HE SAITH, REJOICE ALL YE GENTILES [Did we leave out any?]; AND LAUD HIM ALL YE PEOPLE.

Let's see, did God leave out anybody? Did some "perish for ever and ever? Are some still roasting throughout all eternity?

I think that it is interesting that we can NOT be forgiven by God [according to Scipture and parable of Christ] until we can forgive others:

Matthew 6:14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Why? Because you don't yet understand that the Gospel IS all about Forgiveness! If you don't think you were saved by grace, then you must think there was something in you that was just a little better than other people and you just did NOT need it, and they don't DESERVE your forgivess. Did YOU deserve YOUR forgiveness from God, I ask you! THAT is "grace!"

Can you REALLY SAY AND MEAN THAT YOU WERE SAVED BY GRACE? That is THE Question! Do you REALLY believe that Christ alone is the Author and Finisher of your very faith, or were you the co-author and co-finisher of your faith?

So it may take some of us a little longer than others to be forgiven. In a sense, then, forgiveness is salvation!

No sloppy agape,

Suffering is REAL, just ask Mel Gibson! Dare you look on such suffering as will be portrayed in his movie about Christ on the Cross, called The Passion?

Yes, we suffer in this "age," or "aion" or "olam"--but God has promised to wipe away every tear in the next "age"--"aion"!!!

Check out this piece by Charles Stanley. Do you agree with it?
http://www.intouch.org/intouch/site.show_page?p_id=76096&p_devotional_date=02/11/2004

My reply

> > Check out this piece by Charles Stanley. Do you agree with it?

Of course. One of God's attributes is love.

Another is perfect justice. The one is balanced by the other. God is the All-wise King of the Universe. He sets up fair laws in his kingdom and expects them to be obeyed. Just like when he said if we spare the rod, we ruin the child, he has punishment for his children that do not obey his rules. Otherwise, there would be chaos in his kingdom.

He doesn't need unruly men any more than he needs unruly angels in his heavenly kingdom. They would ruin it for the Body of Christ in Heaven as they have ruined it for us on Earth. As the perfect king on Earth during the Millennium, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. Rev. 19:15 says, "out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

We must be overcomers. Rev. 21:7,8 says, "He that OVERCOMETH shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (death of the soul).

The first death is of the body. The second death is of the soul. No third death is mentioned. All that will be left will be their worm that dieth not. In Mark 9:44, Jesus said, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Don't you believe Jesus means what he says? He is God, you know.

> > do you think God "predestinates" just some and does NOT predestinate the rest?

I don't think he "predestinates" anyone. We have free will to make our own choices. What sometimes makes it seem that we are predestined is the fact that God has foreknowledge. He knows what we are going to do before we do it. He sets before us two ways. Mat 7:13 says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." It is as though someone could go through the wide gate, look back and see that their name was on the inside of the wide gate all along. God knew.

It looks as if Satan was tried, judged and sentenced to prison, then appealed his sentence. He may have said something like, "How could a loving God send one of his creatures to prison? God may have created man to prove to Satan that he was perfectly just in sentencing him to prison. If a smaller, less powerful creature that could not see God could still obey him, God would be perfectly just in putting Satan and the fallen angels in prison. One third of the angels could see God and failed their test (Rev. 12:4).

Adam and Eve were obviously created to be tested. "The "LORD God COMMANDED the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT EAT OF IT: FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:16,17).

The punishment was death. Yet the threat of capital punishment wasn't even enough punishment to get them to obey, and man is still disobeying today. We are still being tested to see if we will obey God. Will we enter in at the strait gate? or take the wide gate "that leadeth to DESTRUCTION"?

Rev. 20:10,14,15 (KJV) says, "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented DAY AND NIGHT for ever and ever...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Both the Lord and Satan were watching to see what Job would do. In Job 1:8, "the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" Job was being tested. The Lord and Satan were both interested in the outcome.

Let's think things pertaining to Salvation through again. In Scripture, we find that there are two classes of people, the just and the unjust. The just are saved by their faith in Christ. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12, KJV). The pagans are out of luck.

The just go through the strait gate and receive eternal life. The unjust go through the wide gate that leads to DESTRUCTION.

We know that eternal life means forever, because at the Judgment Seat of Christ, they are changed in the twinkling of an eye. They are raised in incorruption (15:42) and put on immortality. After that, they can't die. This is when "this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL SHALL HAVE PUT ON IMMORTALITY" (I Cor. 15:54).

The way we can go through the straight gate is to have FAITH in Christ. God has decreed that the just must walk by faith.

John 3:36 (KJV) says, "He that BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM."

John 3:36 (Young) says, "he who is believing in the Son, HATH LIFE AGE-DURING; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him."

To me, "age-during" contradicts the fact that the saints will become IMMORTAL (I Cor. 15:54).

Here are some other translations of John 3:36. Do you think they are all wrong? Sheer numbers are on their side.

(ASV) "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH ETERNAL LIFE; but HE THAT OBEYETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

(Amplified) "HE WHO BELIEVES IN (HAS FAITH IN, CLINGS TO, RELIES ON) THE SON HAS (NOW POSSESSES) ETERNAL LIFE. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure."

(Contemporary English Version, CEV) "EVERYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever."

(Darby) "HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS LIFE ETERNAL, AND HE THAT IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides upon him."

(ISV) "THE ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT THE ONE WHO DISOBEYS THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

(NLT) "ALL WHO BELIEVE IN GOD'S SON HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. THOSE WHO DON'T OBEY THE SON WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE ETERNAL LIFE, but the wrath of God remains upon them."

(NKJV) "HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; AND HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him."

(NASB) "HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; BUT HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him."

(RSV) "HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God rests upon him."

(Webster's) "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON, SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

(HNV) "ONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT ONE WHO DISOBEYS THE SON WON'T SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God remains on him."

(Vulgate) "qui credit in Filium habet VITAM (LIFE) AETERNAM (ETERNAL, perpetual) qui autem incredulus est Filio non videbit vitam sed ira Dei manet super eum."

(Hebraic Roots V) "HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, AND HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE; on the contrary, the wrath of Eloah will remain upon him."

(Jerusalem Bible) "ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE, BUT ANYONE WHO REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN THE SON WILL NEVER SEE LIFE."

(Barclay) "TO BELIEVE IN THE SON IS TO ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE OF ETERNAL LIFE; TO REFUSE TO BELIEVE IN THE SON IS TO DEPRIVE ONESELF OF THE EXPERIENCE OF LIFE. More, it is to become the object of the wrath of God."

(Tischendorf) "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH EVERLASTING LIFE: AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

(Green's Interlinear) "HE THAT BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. BUT HE THAT REFUSES TO OBEY THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God remains on him."

(CJB) "WHOEVER TRUSTS IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE. BUT WHOEVER DISOBEYS THE SON WILL NOT SEE THAT LIFE but remains subject to God's wrath."

(Lamsa) "HE WHO BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; AND HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God shall remain on him."

Here are a few other verses you might be interested in.

I Tim 2:4 (Darby) "who DESIRES that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth."

Mt. 25:41 (Young) "Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, TO THE FIRE, THE AGE-DURING, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers."

I don't think the fire is just "age-during." Mark 9:48 (KJV) says, "Where their worm dieth not, and THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

(ASV) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels."

(Ampl) "Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!"

(Darby) "Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

(ISV) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!"

(KJV) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

II Peter 3:9 (Young) "the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, NOT COUNSELLING any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation"

(KJV) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

(ASV) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, NOT WISHING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

(Darby) [The] "Lord does not delay his promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

(ISV) "The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does NOT WANT anyone to perish, but wants everyone to come to repentance."

Rom. 5:1,2 (Young) Having been declared righteous, then, BY FAITH, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access BY THE FAITH into this grace in which we have stood."

I Cor. 1:21 (Young) "for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, IT DID PLEASE GOD THROUGH THE FOOLISHNESS OF THE PREACHING TO SAVE THOSE BELIEVING."

Rom. 1:16 (Young) "for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to SALVATION TO EVERY ONE WHO IS BELIEVING."

Romans 3:23-26 (Young) "for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT `IS' IN CHRIST JESUS, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, THROUGH THE FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and DECLARING HIM RIGHTEOUS WHO `IS' OF THE FAITH OF JESUS."

Even Young limits the saved to believers. Muslims wouldn't have a chance.

Below are two verses in which "to the ages of the ages" means for ever and ever. God's glory and power are not limited. Neither is God's length of existence limited.

Rev 1:6 (Young) "and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen."

Rev 15:7 (Young) and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages."

> > But look at the conclusion in Rev 5:13 and in Rev 21:24-27 [where even the "kings of the earth" who fought against God at Armageddon [possibly]and Rev 22:2 where the healing of nations [Gentiles] is provided for.

Rev. 20:12-15 (KJV) says, "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE."

II Cor. 5:7 (KJV) says, "we walk by faith, not by sight."

> > This prophetic prayer will yet be asked, and Romans 11:26 will yet be God's answer: "And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Who else but Jesus Christ?], and SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS from Jacob [all Jews!]!"

Rom. 9:6-8 (KJV) says, "THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

> > And then, of course, a FINAL universal Salvation in Romans 15:9 "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles [the rest of the world's people, non Jewish], and sing unto thy name. 10) And AGAIN HE SAITH, REJOICE ALL YE GENTILES [Did we leave out any?]; AND LAUD HIM ALL YE PEOPLE.
> > Let's see, did God leave out anybody? Did some "perish for ever and ever? Are some still roasting throughout all eternity?

Read it in context. Paul wasn't preaching on Universal Salvation. In Rom. 15:5-11, he said, "Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people."

> > Why? Because you don't yet understand that the Gospel IS all about Forgiveness! If you don't think you were saved by grace, then you must think there was something in you that was just a little better than other people and you just did NOT need it, and they don't DESERVE your forgivess. Did YOU deserve YOUR forgiveness from God, I ask you! THAT is "grace!"

Who said I didn't think I was saved by grace? Did we discuss my salvation? We are all saved by the grace of God. He didn't have to save us. He could let us exist as animals. Grace is unmerited favor. When men were yet sinners, and deserving nothing, he died that they might be saved. Those that believe in him receive salvation by his graciousness, me included. He gives believers salvation as a free gift.

He gives us more than that. He baptizes us with his Holy Spirit, the "Spirit of Christ." Rom. 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if ANY MAN have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Any man that has not the Spirit of Christ is headed for hell. "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE" (I Cor. 1:21). Agape

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