Pro and Con 1127

Posted 6-2-04

Incoming email, Re: Tentative Future Dates

I have a couple of questions.

1.Why do you think you were wrong with May 23 , 2004?
2. Do you have any new dates in mind?
3. Why did you delete your predicition off your site?
4. Have you looked at Pentecost 2005?

Why do you think the rapture will not happen with the feast of trumpets?

The rapture will happen before 2007!

My reply

> > 1.Why do you think you were wrong with May 23 , 2004?

I subtracted the 2300 days of Dan. 8:13,14 from Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of God's Wrath. It looks like that threw me off by the 7 months of Eze. 39:12,13, when the Jews bury the dead to cleanse the land for the return of Christ in glory..

Dan. 8:13,14,17,23-26 says, "another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS, THEN SHALL THE SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED....at the TIME OF THE END shall be the vision....when the transgressors are come to the FULL, a king of fierce countenance (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up (Mid-Trib). And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (by Satan's)...and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Christ); but HE SHALL BE BROKEN WITHOUT HAND. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days."

I thought the sanctuary would be cleansed on the Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. The False Prophet would be wounded. Zech. 11:17 says, "Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock (i.e., goes to Babylon)! the sword (Sword of the LORD, the asteroid) shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened." The "overflowing shower" caused by the asteroid impact in the Mediterranean Sea (Rev. 8:8) surely would cleanse the sanctuary.

Eze. 13:10-15 says "because they have seduced my people, saying, PEACE; AND THERE WAS NO PEACE; and one (Herod?) built up a wall (at the temple mount), and, lo, others (Jordanians) daubed it with untempered morter: And unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that IT SHALL FALL: THERE SHALL BE AN OVERFLOWING SHOWER; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and THERE SHALL BE AN OVERFLOWING SHOWER IN MINE ANGER, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Thus will I accomplish MY WRATH upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it."

It looks like I should have gone by Eze. 45:18-21. It says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month (NISAN 1), thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month (NISAN 7) for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month (NISAN 14), ye shall have the PASSOVER." The Passover is in Nisan, not Tishri.

> > 2. Do you have any new dates in mind?

Yes, for the Pre-Trib Rapture, December 17, 2004 (Teveth 5, 5765). That is 2300 days before the Second Advent on April 5, 2011 (Nisan 1, 5771).

At midnight on Dec. 16/17, Saturn will be up and centrally located, so it will be A MORNING STAR. It will be on the BORDER BETWEEN GEMINI AND CANCER. That could be a good sign, for Gemini is the sign of the Rapture, and Cancer stands for Heaven, the holding place for THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS. Cancer's Decans are ARGO NAVIS, THE LESSER SHEEPFOLD AND THE GREATER SHEEPFOLD. In ancient days, there were two ships in the constellation ARGO, which means THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS. The two ships matched up with the two sheepfolds (now called the Little Dipper and the Big Dipper, or Ursa Minor and Ursa Major). The Bride of Christ group is in the smaller sheepfold, the Little Dipper. She is closer to the King of kings and Lord of lords, the constellation CEPHEUS. The great multitude of Rev. 7:9 is in the Big Dipper. They are the Tribulation saints.

> > 3. Why did you delete your predicition off your site?

I am not a prophet. I don't predict. As for my educated guesses, May 23 passed. The file needed to be updated. The latest update is now posted. Here is the new timetable:

Pre-Trib Rapture: Teveth 5, 5765, Fri, Dec. 16/17, 2004
Beginning of 2300-day Tribulation: Dec 17, 2004
Mid-Trib: Fri, 25 Iyar, 5768, May 30, 2008
Pre-Wrath Rapture: Tishri 1, 5771, Thur, Sept 9, 2010
Day of God's Wrath: Sept. 9, 2010
End of 2300-day Tribulation: Apr 5, 2011
Second Advent: Nisan 1, 5771, Tue, Apr 5, 2011

> > 4. Have you looked at Pentecost 2005?

Yes. However, Sivan 6/7, 5765 (June 13,14, 2005) is not 2300 days before the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5771 (Apr. 5, 2011).

> > 5. Why do you think the rapture will not happen with the feast of trumpets?

It could. On Tishri 1, 5765 (Sept. 16, 2004), Saturn is in Gemini, and Saturn is a morning star. However, is it likely? The Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Feast of Trumpets. Wouldn't the information regarding the two Raptures be hard to sort out if both Raptures were on the Feast of Trumpets? Also, Trumpets isn't 2300 days before the Second Advent.

I think Gemini is the Rapture sign. In Mt. 24:37, Jesus indicated that the Rapture would be "as the days of Noe". Saturn was in Gemini when Noah boarded the Ark Cheshvan 17, 1374 (Oct. 4, BC 2387). Therefore, I think Saturn will be in Gemini at the Rapture.

Eph. 2:6 says that he, "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Gemini is the sign that shows the Bride and Bridegroom sitting together in heavenly places on the ecliptic. I think Christ's throne is on Saturn, and it is now in Gemini. According to Paul, Paradise is the third heaven (II Cor. 12:1-7), (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter, and (3) Saturn.

Saturn will be in Gemini until about July 1, 2005. Therefore, I expect the Rapture before July 1, 2005.

I think Saturn will be a morning star when the Rapture takes place. Jesus said, "he that overcometh...I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR" (Rev. 2:28). In chapter 22, Jesus said he was the bright and morning star, but the overcomers already have Christ in their hearts. He probably said he was the bright and morning star, because his throne is on a bright and morning star.

On Tamuz 17, 5764 (July 6, 2004), Saturn will be in Gemini. Saturn will rise about 3 AM, so it will be a morning star, but not a morning star "at midnight" (Mt. 25:6). Tamuz 17 is not 2300 days before April 5, 2011, when I think the Second Advent will take place on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal Year. Agape

Is the Cassini a sign?

Cassini spacecraft successfully trims course for Saturn moon pass
AP - PASADENA, Calif. - May. 28, 2004
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/8786365.htm?1c

..."It sets the stage for Saturn orbit insertion on June 30," he said in a statement.

Cassini will need to perform a 96-minute burn that day to become the first spacecraft to go into orbit around the ringed planet....

The spacecraft has traveled 2.1 billion miles since the U.S.-European mission was launched from Florida on Oct. 15, 1997, carrying a European-built probe named Huygens that WILL BE RELEASED IN DECEMBER to parachute through the atmosphere of Saturn's moon Titan in January....

MAZZAROTH; or, the CONSTELLATIONS

by Frances Rolleston, 1863
"Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season?"-Job 33:32
Philologos.org

GEMINI, THE TWINS, THE UNITED,...
Clusus, or Claustrum Hori, STATION OF THE COMING...

Names in the Sign...
Propus, the branch, spreading...
Al Dira, the seed (or branch)...
Castor, bearing an arrow, haste...
Pollux, bearing a branch, ruler, or judge...

URSA MINOR, (Called the LESSER BEAR)
The Lesser Fold, or Flock...
Kochab, waiting him who cometh
Arcas, or Arctos, travelling company ...

URSA MAJOR, (called the GREAT BEAR)
The Sheepfold and Sheep...
El Kaphrah, protected, covered (Heb., redeemed, ransomed)...
Dubheh Lachar, the latter herd, or flock...
Helike, company of travellers, walking...
Calisto, the sheepfold, set or appointed...

ARGO, (called the SHIP)
Argo, the company of travellers
Tureis, the possession...
Canopus, or the possession...
Canobus, of him who cometh...
Asmidiska, the released who travel...
Soheil, the desired...
Subilon, the branch...

THE EAGLE, holding the Lyre...
Sulaphat, springing up...
Vega, he shall be exalted...
Lyra, the lyre, or harp...

PISCES
Al Pherg al Muchaddem, the progeny from of old...
Al Pherg al Muachher, the progency of the latter time...

Signs borne on the banners of the tribes of Israel
NAMES OF THE SONS OF JACOB ACCORDING TO THEIR BIRTH

AQUARIUS Reuben, behold a son, the son, arising, pouring out blessings

PISCES Simeon, heard, characteristic of the Church
Levi, bound, united, characteristic of the Church

LEO Judah, praise to the Lord, for the coming Messiah

SCORPIO Dan, judging, ruling, his people

CAPRICORNUS Naphtali, wrestling, sufferings at the first coming

ARIES Gad, good fortune, blessings at the second coming

SAGITTARIUS Asher, happy, the going forth of the Gospel

CANCER Issachar, recompense, or reward, of the Messiah's sufferings

VIRGO Zebulon, dwelling, as the promised seed at his first coming

TAURUS Joseph, adding. Ephraim; fruitful

GEMINI Benjamin, son of the right hand, called by his mother, Ben-oni, son of sorrow, the suffering and triumphant Messiah...

In the book of Zohar it is said, "When the Messiah shall be revealed, a bright star shall arise in the East."...

the twins of Gemini, one mortal, the other immortal...

The Star of Bethlehem

by Anthony F. Aveni, Dec. 1998
http://www.archaeology.org/9811/abstracts/star.html

A triple conjunction (three close passes in a row) of Saturn and Jupiter in the constellation of Pisces in 7 B.C. is one astronomically sound explanation for the Star of Bethlehem....

My comments

I had read here and elsewhere of the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in BC 7. One said there were three conjunctions, May 29, September 29, and December 4.
I went to YourSky, and was surprised at what I found. I just checked at midnight. On May 16 in BC 7, Saturn and Jupiter were in conjunction and rising in the east in Pisces. Jupiter's right ascension was listed as 23h, 21m. That of Saturn was 23h, 26m. On May 23, Jupiter's RA was 23h, 25 m. Saturn's was 23h, 28m, even closer and joined by the Moon. Here's the way it looked.

On Sept. 29, Saturn and Jupiter were even closer. They looked like they were right on top of each other. Saturn's RA was 23h 18m. Jupiter's was 23h 17m.

On Oct. 3, Saturn's RA was 23h, 17m. Jupiter's was 23h, 15m. On Oct. 29, Saturn's RA was 23h, 11m. Jupiter's was 23h, 7m, and they would soon set. On Oct. 31, they were setting. Saturn's RA was 23h, 11m. Jupiter's was 23h, 6m. Here is what that looked like.

I looked at the sky chart for every day in between May 16 and Oct. 31, BC7. What shocked me was to find that there was not one day between those dates that the symbols were separated from each other. They were touching every day. When Jupiter went into its retrograde loop, Saturn did too. Their dance in Pisces, Simeon's sign, was cheek to cheek the whole time. I didn't find their conjunction in December. Simeon means a hearkening. That seems fitting.

If I saw these two planets stay that close for that long a time, I'd think it was a sign too. Jupiter's brightness is next to that of Venus. It catches your eye, and Saturn is 3rd in brightness among the planets. I can now understand why the wise men could have taken this for a sign. It would also explain their delay in starting their trip. The longer they watched it, the more convincing it would seem. I read that it only happens like that about once in 900 years.
There was a NOVA, a new star in Capricorn, recorded by the Chinese in BC 5. It lasted 70 days. The Chinese also recorded a comet that had a tail in BC 5.

"The Birth and Death of Jesus Christ" (istina@rin.ru) has some very interesting information. Emphasis is mine.
http://istina.rin.ru/eng/ufo/text/289.html

..."Mick Brown's article 'The Heavenly Debate'. Brown said that between 12 BC and 4 BC the Chinese recorded THREE COMETS, and THE FIRST HAS SINCE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS HALLEY'S COMET. Colin Humphreys, a Cambridge professor, favoured 5 BC, THE SECOND COMET recorded by the Chinese, for Christ's birth....COMET BRADFIELD C/1975 V2 MADE A SPECTACULAR APPEARANCE AT THIS TIME, its tail seemingly endless....

However, his letter does refer to a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. Johannes Kepler [1571-1630], the famous German astronomer and natural philosopher, saw a conjunction of these planets in Pisces in 1603, and found three had occured in 7 BC....

Extra weight to their theory appeared to have been leant by the Sun being in Virgo, i.e. the Son of God in the Virgin Mary. Hughes could see that the strongest argument against the conjunction idea was that "at their closest point, Jupiter would have been separated"....he said that the two planets had royal significance with Jupiter being "the planet of kingship" and SATURN "THE PLANET OF THE JEWS"....

I decided to use the astronomy software RedShift 3 to see whether or not there were any comets visible in the area on 15 September 7 BC. The most likely candidate, I discovered, was the comet Blanpain D/1819 W1. Blanpain was seen at 6:45 am in the eastern sky. Two other comets were also in the skies at this time, BRADFIELD and Hartley 2....

I found the date of the Nova recorded by the Chinese in "The Star of Bethlehem, by Ray Bohlin
http://www.probe.org/docs/starbeth.html

...there was a "new star" recorded by the Chinese in the constellation Capricorn in March-April of 5 B.C. that lasted only 70 days...

Halley's comet which appeared in 12 B.C....

Saturn was associated with Palestine or even with the deity who protected Israel. And Pisces was associated with the nation of Israel. Later a massing of Jupiter, Mars, and Saturn occurred again in Pisces in 6 B.C....
---
Chinese and Babylonian Observations
http://www.iac.es/galeria/mrk/Chinese.html"

The 7 BC triple conjunction In fact, one of the Babylonian tablets in the British Museum is an astronomical almanac for the years 7/6 BC, which covers the period of the triple conjunction which is a widely commented candidate to have been the Star of Bethlehem. The almanac explicitly speaks of the movements of the two planets. The tablet, catalogued as BM 35429, makes neither direct reference, nor allusion to the conjunction. A translation of a small portion of the tablet is, as follows:

"Month VII, the 1st of which will follow the 30th of the previous month. Jupiter and Saturn in Pisces, Venus in Scorpio, Mars in Sagittarius. On the 2nd, equinox."

"Month XI, ... Jupiter and Saturn, and Mars in Pisces, Venus in Sagittarius. On the 13th Venus will reach Capricorn."

As can be seen from the above extracts, the conjunction seems to have given rise to no perceptible comment or interest, either in the triple conjunction (e.g. the text from Month VII reproduced above) or in the planetary massing (Month XI). If the Magi were Babylonian astronomers it seems odd that, if this event was the Star of Bethlehem, they made no comment that indicates any interest in it at all....

"During the interval between March 10th and April 7th of 5 BC, a comet appeared close Alpha and Beta Capricornii and was visible for more than 70 days"
---
It seems that the comet in Capricorn between March 10 and April 7, BC 5, later became the Star of Bethlehem. Comets go round the Sun and then reappear. This explains how the Wise Men could see it again, and how it went south to Bethlehem. Comets travel in any direction. Planets travel east to west.

I was glad to get that straight in my mind, but something else caught my interest. On Sept. 15, BC 7, there were three comets in the sky, Blanpain, BRADFIELD and Hartley.

We have had three comets in our sky lately, and a Comet BRADFIELD was one of them. This Bradfield was announced April 12, 2004. It was found by William A. Bradfield of Australia. He found something like 18 others. I wondered if these two comets, Bradfield in 2004 and Bradfield in BC 7, could be the same comet. They're not. The one that was seen in BC 5 is C/1975V2. The one seen in 2004 is C/2004 F4. BTW, Halley's comet was seen in BC 12.
---
APOD April 19, 2004
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040419.html"

...Along with T7 and Q4, Comet Bradfield is now the third comet that is currently visible on the sky with the unaided eye, the most ever of which we are aware and quite possibly the most in recorded history....

Incoming email, Re: Question re Messianic Jews

In your Pro and Con 1119, you say:At Mid-Trib, there is a remnant of Israel "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"
(Rev. 12:17). They are Messianic Jews. For their sake, the Great Tribulation is shortened.

Are these the Jews who accept Jesus as Savior after the rapture? What about the current Messianic Jews - are they part of the Church?

Please clarify. Thanks

My reply

> > Are these the Jews who accept Jesus as Savior after the rapture?

Either that or they are foolish virgins of Mt. 25 that get left behind the first time. There are 144,000 Israelites listed in Rev. 7. That's a large number, but besides them, there is a great multitude out of all nations that come out of the Great Tribulation at the same time.

> > the current Messianic Jews - are they part of the Church?

Yes. Eph. 2:13-16 says, "now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath MADE BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jews and Gentiles) one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby".

Eph. 4:4 says, "There is ONE BODY, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE of your calling".

How were people saved in Old Testament days? By obeying the Law? No. Not one man was ever saved that way. In those days, the Pre-incarnate YHWH YAHshua (Jesus) said, "Look unto me, and be ye saved."

Isa. 45:21-23 says, "who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; A JUST GOD (i.e., YHWH) AND A SAVIOUR (YAHshua, i.e., Jesus); THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me (YHWH YAHshua, i.e., Jesus) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

In New Testament days, the Incarnate YHWH YAHshua (Jesus) said, "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" (Rom. 14:11). Phil. 2:10 says, "That at the name of JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."

People, of whatever time, have always been saved the same way, whether they understood it or not. All along, the just shall walk by faith in our God, who is both YHWH and YAHshua (Jesus). Gen. 5:24 puts it simply when it says, "And Enoch walked with God." Gen. 6:9 puts it the same way. It says, "And Noah walked with God." Both were saved (Heb. 11:5,7). Micah 6:8 says, "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH King of Israel), AND I am the last (YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer); and beside me there is no God." In Old Testament days, they were saved by believing in him as YHWH the King of Israel. In New Testament days, we are saved by believing in him as YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer (Jesus Christ). Therefore, we are all one body. We all have the same Saviour.

Heb. 11:6 says, "But without FAITH it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God MUST BELIEVE that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Agape

Hindus worship at Fátima altar

22/05/04
http://the-news.net/cgi-local/story.pl?title=Hindus%20worship%20at%20F%E1tima%20altar&edition=755"

New asteroid has smallest solar orbit

By Duncan Graham-Rowe, 21 May 04
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99995025

A newly-discovered asteroid has the smallest orbit around the Sun ever seen for a space rock. It is also only the second known asteroid to have an orbit that lies entirely within the Earth's - the first was discovered in 2003.

Such asteroids are very difficult to detect because their position in relation to the Sun and the Earth means they rarely appear in the night sky.

The asteroid, designated 2004 JG6, was spotted earlier in May by Brian Skiff, part of the Lowell Observatory Near-Earth Object Search (LONEOS), in Flagstaff Arizona, US.

The asteroid passes within 50 million kilometres of the Sun every six months....

"What makes this asteroid unique is that, on average, it is the second closest Solar System object orbiting the Sun," says Edward Bowell, director of LONEOS. Only Mercury orbits closer. It is thought to measure between 500 and 1000 metres across....

This asteroid almost certainly originated in the asteroid belt that orbits between Mars and Jupiter....

'Weird' meteorite may be from Mars moon

14:02 22 April 04
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994902

A unique meteorite that fell on a Soviet military base in Yemen in 1980 may have come from one of the moons of Mars. Several meteorites from the Red Planet have been found on Earth, but this could be the only piece of Martian moon rock.

Andrei Ivanov, who is based at the Vernadsky Institute of Geochemistry and Analytical Chemistry in Moscow, Russia, spent two decades puzzling over the fist-sized Kaidun meteorite before he decided that it must be a chip off Phobos, the larger of the two Martian moons. "I can't find a better candidate," Ivanov told New Scientist.

The Kaidun meteorite is like no other in the world ­ and 23,000 of them have been catalogued. It is made of many small chunks of material, including minerals never seen before.

Working with Michael Zolensky of the NASA Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, Ivanov used an electron microscope to look at the space rock's crystal structure, peered through its minerals using X-rays and vaporised fragments to catalogue the elements inside. And every sample turned out to be something "new and weird", says Zolensky.

Volcanic debris

Among the odd materials in the meteorite were two fragments of volcanic rock ­ which only forms in massive, planet-like bodies with a core, mantle and crust. But much of the meteorite is a kind of carbon-rich material that only occurs in asteroids....

Journal reference: Solar System Research (vol 38, p 97)
Jenny Hogan

My comment

I think the massive, planet body with a core, mantle and crust was Satan's planet Rahab that split apart forming our Asteroid Belt.

Incoming email

Saturday, May 22, 2004 08:34:05 AM EDT
Arabs, too, are losing patience
with Arafat -Uri Dromi, IHT
http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=521199.html

Arafat: Talks based on road map will lead to peace with Israel"

Saturday, May 22, 2004
Haaretz
http://www.watch.org/articles.html?mcat=1

   Pro and Con 1128   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1996-2004, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 6-2-04