Pro and Con 1144

Posted 8-25-04

My reply to Jovial (19 Aug 2004) on Five Doves site, Re: "Ezek 39 and Matt 24"

Are Eze. 39:4 and Mt. 24:28 talking about the same thing?

Eze. 39:4 says, "Thou (Gog) shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands...I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured." This will take place on the Day of God's Wrath. The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 (the second trumpet judgment) will strike the Mediterranean Sea at noon.

Zeph. 2:2-5 says, "BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER COME UPON YOU. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (i.e., be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture before noon) in the day of the LORD's anger (the Feast of Trumpets). For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast".

I think Mt. 24:28 is talking about the Pre-Wrath Rapture that takes place in the night or morning--before noon. It says, "For wheresoever the carcase (dead body, i.e., the 'saints which slept') is (it is in Heaven), there will the eagles be gathered together."

It seems that this dead body represents the saints in Heaven that have already died. Jesus took the Old Testament saints in Paradise to Heaven on Resurrection Day. Mt. 27:52,53 says, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the SAINTS WHICH SLEPT arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

The "eagles" that soar high up in the heavens represent the Tribulation saints being taken to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture before noon on the Day of God's Wrath. The type in Ex. 19:4 says, "I BARE YOU ON EAGLES' WINGS, AND BROUGHT YOU UNTO MYSELF."

The Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place in the night or morning. The Wrath of God will strike the unbelievers left on Earth at noon. At the same time that the Wrath of God hits Earth, the complete Body of Christ in Heaven will be receiving their rewards.

Rev. 11:17,18 says, "We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art (on the Day of God's Wrath), and wast (at the First Advent), and art to come (at the Second Advent 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (this is the first day of the millennial reign of Christ). And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come, and THE TIME OF THE DEAD (nekros, from nekus, a corpse), THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED (at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

At this point, the Body of Christ is complete. All saints are in Heaven receiving their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Therefore, the living Tribulation saints will be caught up to Heaven just before the judgment. "For wheresoever the carcase is (i.e., the dead in Christ are in Heaven), THERE WILL THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER" (Mt. 24:28).

At that time, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (soma, i.e., Body of Christ) is (it is in Heaven), THITHER WILL THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER" (Luke 17:36,37). Agape

Incoming email, Re: Cassini space craft. 8-21-04

Apparently, Marilyn, there is a "bright object" the Cassini spacecraft is picking up near Saturn. God bless.

My reply

Thanks. That's interesting. It's irregular shape suggests a chunk broken off of an asteroid. Agape

NASA's Cassini spacecraft has spied two new little moons around satellite-rich Saturn, the space agency said Monday.

Saturn's tally of known moons now stands at 33....

The two newly spotted, faint moons are about 2 miles and 21/2 miles across

Planet Viewing in 2004

...Saturn looks like a golden star. It spends the entire year in Gemini, although it flirts with the border to Cancer in the fall before reversing direction and moving back toward the center of Gemini. It's brightest at the beginning and end of the year, when it's closest to us....

My Note: Saturn is a morning star from now through the end of the year.

Incoming email, Re: Thanks for your website...

Thanks for your website explaining the scriptures to the uninformed. For it is right when the Lord Jesus says some will see and understand and some will not. God Bless you in this quest to spread the Gospel of Jesus in the hearts of each one of us.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.


Donna said:
> > it would seem more likely that the carcase would be the spiritually dead who have been fed lies as dead meat which is not the living word of God by the False Prophet, and all have taken the Mark of the Beast. This body of spiritually dead men including kings, the False Prophet, and the Beast who are all assembled to war against Jesus and all his saints visible in heaven above, and all the birds (vultures) are also gathered together by the angel to await the death of this collective body of the spiritually dead men assembled there except for the False Prophet and the Beast who are thrown alive into the lake of fire.

> > I think the carcase would better describe the body of spiritually dead men assembled to war against Christ and his saints and this body of spiritually dead men will soon be physically dead having been killed by the sword that proceeded out of the Lord Jesus Christ's mouth which is the word of God. I hope this finally lays the carcase to rest as to its meaning.

We can't put Matt. 24:28 together with Rev. 19:17-21. The events take place at different times. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is at least 7 months before Armageddon.

To help us sort this out, let's look at the sequence of events:

SIXTH SEAL, Rev. 6:12-16
A great earthquake
SUN BECOMES BLACK, Moon like blood
Small stones, meteorites, begin to fall to Earth
SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN, Christ sitting on his throne seen in sky
Men say to mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

2. FEAST OF TRUMPETS, Tishri 1, Rev. 6:17-7:17
4 angels hold back the 4 winds of the Earth
144,000 Israelites sealed
144,000 plus "a great multitude, which no man could number" are caught up to the throne of God "out of great tribulation"
SILENCE in Heaven and Earth while the judge is seated at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, Rev. 8:1; Hab. 2:20
SEVEN TRUMPETS sounded by seven angels
Only after the judgment trumpets begin to be sounded are men killed so birds of prey would be attracted to the bodies
"he hath judged the great whore, Rev. 19:2
MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB in Heaven, Rev. 19:7

3. SEVEN MONTHS, Israelites bury the bodies to cleanse the land for Christ's glorious return, Eze. 39:12,13
Tishri 1 to Nisan 1 is 7 months in a Jewish Leap Year with a 13th month

4. SECOND ADVENT, Nisan 1 (probably in 5771, our Apr. 5, 2011)
The LORD will come as the LATTER RAIN, Hos. 6:3, Rev. 19:111f
"the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee," Zech. 14:5

5. ARMAGEDDON follows Christ's return
"I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to MAKE WAR AGAINST HIM THAT SAT ON THE HORSE", Rev. 19:19

6. SUPPER OF THE GREAT GOD follows Armageddon "Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings...", Rev. 19:17

In the light of that, here is the way I understand the following verses.

The whole block, Mt. 24:27-31, takes place on the Eve of Trumpets and the Feast of Trumpets. The PRE-WRATH RAPTURE is the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52. It sounds sometime during the night or morning of Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea at "noon day" (Zeph. 2:3-5) on Tishri 1, the Day of God's Wrath.

Mt. 24:27-31 says, "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (in the air at the Pre-Wrath Rapture) of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase (dead body, i.e., dead ones in Body of Christ) is (even the OT saints in Paradise were taken to Heaven on Resurrection Day, two days after Jesus said this), there will the eagles (live Tribulation saints) be gathered together (i.e., in Heaven).
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (at the SIXTH SEAL, Rev. 6:12f) shall the SUN BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then (after the 6th seal is broken) shall appear THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (at the time the Sign of the Son of Man is seen) he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET (i.e., at the 'last trump' of I Cor. 15:51,52, the last Rapture), and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

On this Feast of Trumpets, the saints already in Heaven since the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be gathered from the ends of Heaven to "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God (Christ) the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23).

Mark 13:24-27 covers the same time span as Mt. 24:27-31. In Mark 13:24-27, Jesus said, "in those days (Eve of Trumpets and Feast of Trumpets), after that tribulation (SIXTH SEAL), the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars (aster, i.e., the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10) of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (this is the Sign of the Son of man seen in the sky, not the Second Advent).
27 And then (on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the SEVENTH SEAL is broken), shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

The two Raptures are called the "days (plural) of the son of man" in Luke 17:22-37. The Pre-Trib Rapture ("open door," Rev. 3:8) is the first Day of the Son of Man. It is as the days of Noah. The Lord shut the door. Rain (symbol of the Holy Spirit) fell that same day.

The 2nd Day of the Son of Man is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day. Luke 17:29 says, "But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." That is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath, when fire and brimstone will fall.

Of the Feast of Trumpets, Joel 1:15; 2:1-3 says, "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty shall it come....Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of THICK DARKNESS, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army, Eze. 38); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them."

Of the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN seen in the sky), and the mountains (asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS (they will SEE THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN), and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Eze. 39:11-13 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

I hope this helps us to understand Mt. 24:28 correctly. Agape

From 5 Doves site

Deeshelton (19 Aug 2004) "ten virgins"

i read where someone thinks the five foolish virgins are christians left behind.if that is the case how do you get by those whom he justified he also glorified.justification takes place the minute you recieve christ into your heart,it also seems to me that a lot of christians have their eyes on their own obediance almost as if they are trusting in that more than his obediance of christ. none of you will get to heaven by your obediance.romans says by the obediance of one shall many be made rightous.that being justified by his blood we shall be saved from wrath through him.also in one of those parables about the virgins the lord says i will say i know you not .if he said that to a christian or someone who had been born again would it not be a lie.jesus does not matthew he says then i the king will say unto them depart from me i never knew you.if jesus said that to a christian or someone who reilly had been born again he would be telling a lie .jesus dont lie by the way i reilly do enjoy some of your articles and insight.

My reply

> > i read where someone thinks the five foolish virgins are christians left behind.if that is the case how do you get by those whom he justified he also glorified.justification takes place the minute you recieve christ into your heart,it also seems to me that a lot of christians have their eyes on their own obediance almost as if they are trusting in that more than his obediance of christ.

I am one who thinks the 5 foolish virgins are Laodiceans that get left behind at the Pre-Trib Rapture. They become Tribulation saints that will be either martyrs or caught up with the Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Either way, they will get to Heaven eventually.

Jesus warns the Laodiceans (meaning people of judgment) to buy of Him white raiment. Rev. 3:18,19 says, "buy of me gold (symbol of deity) tried in the fire (i.e., Tribulation), that thou mayest be rich; and WHITE RAIMENT, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and ANOINT THINE EYES WITHY EYESALVE, THAT THOU MAYEST SEE. AS MANY AS I LOVE, I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: BE ZEALOUS THEREFORE, AND REPENT." The Laodiceans are believers. They are saved, but lack white robes of righteousness. Why? because they have committed unconfessed sins since they accepted Christ. Those sins must be brought under the blood of Christ too.

Some of the believers of Sardis are wearing defiled garments.

Sardis means "those escaping," i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Yet, not all escape in the 1st Rapture. Rev. 3:4 says, "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have NOT DEFILED THEIR GARMENTS; and they shall walk with me in WHITE: FOR THEY ARE WORTHY."

The Bride wears white. To the Bride of Christ "was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (lit., righteousnesses) of saints" (i.e. believers). The righteousnesses of believers include the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to them when they accept Christ as their own personal Saviour plus their own righteous acts committed after they were saved.

Overcomers from Sardis (those escaping in the Pre-Trib Rapture) "are WORTHY." That takes us back to Luke 21:36. Jesus addressed believers, saying, "Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE (believers) MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE (i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture) ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass (i.e., in the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man" (Christ, in Heaven).

Some virgins (i.e., believers wearing white garments) are "accounted worthy to escape" in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Other believers, those not wearing white garments, are not "accounted worthy to escape" at that time. Those accounted worthy are wise virgins. Those not accounted worthy are foolish virgins. It is the wise virgins that "have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me (Jesus) in WHITE, FOR THEY ARE WORTHY" (Rev. 3:4).

Peter was a believer, yet, in John 13:4-10, Jesus "riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to WASH THE DISCIPLES (believers') FEET, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, IF I WASH THEE NOT, THOU HAST NO PART WITH ME. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed (i.e., had his 'old sins,' II Peter 1:9, washed away when he accepted Christ) needeth not save to WASH HIS FEET, but is clean every whit".

Christians' "OLD SINS" are washed away when they accept Christ, but afterward, NEW sins need to be confessed. That's why I John 1:9 says, "If we (believers) confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." Notice that a believer still can need to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. When all our sins committed after we are saved are confessed, they will be under the blood of Christ and our feet will be clean. And what about those sins we can't remember? If we confess known sins, Christ will CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." That takes care of unknown sins too.

What is it that the Tribulation saints have done before being caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture? They "HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB" (Rev. 7:14). They have confessed their sins committed after they accepted Christ.

> > in matthew he says then i the king will say unto them depart from me i never knew you.if jesus said that to a christian or someone who reilly had been born again he would be telling a lie

In Mt. 24:48-51;25:1, Jesus said, "But and if that EVIL SERVANT (i.e., carnal believer) shall say in his heart, MY LORD (showing he's a believer) delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT (believer) shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall CUT HIM ASUNDER (i.e., cut him off at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and appoint him his portion (the Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom." Notice that all 10 went forth to meet Christ. All 10 were believers.

Luke 12:45 says, "The lord of that servant (foolish believer) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him (the foolish believer) in sunder (lit., cut him off, i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and will appoint him HIS PORTION (the Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS." No wonder there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If he is appointed his portion with the unbelievers, he is a believer. His portion does not include God's wrath.

No wonder Jesus said to believers, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye (believers) MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things (the Tribulation trial) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) (Luke 21:36). Remember, I Thess. 5:9 says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

> > romans says by the obediance of one shall many be made rightous.that being justified by his blood we shall be saved from wrath through him

Notice what this says we shall be shall be saved from--WRATH. Yes! even the foolish virgins will be saved from WRATH. All believers will be saved from the WRATH of God. However, some will also be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE THE TRIBULATION. They are the wise virgins.

Remember the wedding feast of Mt. 22:1-14. When "the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment (i.e., white robe): And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless (he thought he had it made). Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and TAKE HIM AWAY, and cast him into outer darkness (i.e., outside the door darkness); THERE SHALL BNE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN."

We need to be called, and chosen, and faithful. At the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 17:14 says, "THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL." They are wearing white robes. This is a time when the ten kings "HAVE RECEIVED NO KINGDOM AS YET" (Rev. 17:12). As the Tribulation begins, all 10 kings are crowned (Rev. 13:1). Agape

DNA to reveal source of Dead Sea Scrolls

By Sarah Katz

Authorities are hoping that DNA testing of animal bones discovered in excavations at the Qumran plateau will reveal the origins of the Dead Sea Scrolls....

"What we will do now are DNA tests to these bones in order to compare DNA results from these animals with DNA of the Dead Sea Scrolls parchment....

The seven bone deposits of mules eaten and buried inside cleaning pots and storage jars by the Qumran community in the 1st century BCE will undergo DNA testing this week....

According to Gutfield, "If the bone deposits, which are unique to the plateau, match with the scrolls, we will be able to resolve one of the greatest debates of the archeological world today do the scrolls originate from within the Qumran community or were they transported to the caves from outside before the siege of the Romans in 66 CE?"...

Eshel said..."I can't understand why some people would deny a connection between the scrolls found in the cave and the site [Qumran] itself. In addition to the proximity of the caves to the site, one must go through the site to reach the caves. If a match is found, it will prove the connection once and for all," he said.
Archaeologists insist there was a community at Qumran
By Amiram Barkat, 17/08/04

...Recent findings include large pots full of animal bones found under the homes, which are being sent for genetic tracing. The researchers believe it will prove that the leather on which the scrolls were written came from those animals....

Incoming email

Have you seen this?? Hmm..the Pope's funeral arrangements are being made...hmmm...that means there will soon be a new Pope...hmmm will this Pope indeed be the Antichrist !???.

Thank You Marilyn for all the good, hard, acedemic, work you do to point us 'upward'. Even So, Come Quickly Lord Jesus
8-16-04 - Vatican sources have revealed today that the elderly Pope John Paul II may be in his final hours of life. The rapid deterioration of the popes health has come just days after his visit to the Lourdes shrine

The 84 year old suffering from Parkinsons may succumb to the illness at any moment and it is rumoured that preparations for his funeral are already being made....

"The Pope's health has seriously weakened. When the Pope says: 'I end my pilgrimage here', that could mean two things. That, at least was how people listening to him in the field interpreted it. It was almost his goodbye to Lourdes and maybe also to his life," Danneels added....

Teleportation goes long distance

By Paul Rincon, 8-18-04

Physicists have carried out successful teleportation with particles of light over a distance of 600m across the River Danube in Austria.

Antarctic craters reveal strike

Scientists have mapped enormous impact craters hidden under the Antarctic ice sheet using satellite technology.

...Professor Frans van der Hoeven, from Delft University in the Netherlands, told the International Geographical Union Congress in Glasgow that the biggest single strike seared a hole in the ice sheet roughly 322km (200 miles) by 322km.

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