Pro and Con 1148

Posted 9-17-04

Incoming email, Re: Comments to Pastor Riley

Enjoy your website and your kind response to Pastor Riley. I personally believe there is only one rapture, and that occurs on some future Feast of Trumpets. The Day(s) of the Lord begin at the time also - as you know the Feast of Trumpets is two days but really considered one long day. I also believe both passages (Luke and Matthew) refer to that same time frame since the Day of Lord begins as we are raptured. I also believe we are only with the Lord until Tishri 10 when we return with him. I believe Tishri 3 -9 will be the marriage ceremony (7 days as is traditional and not a 7 year interpretation). I believe the future Tishri 1 occurs at the end of the 6th Seal and also the 6th Trumpet. I believe the church goes through the trumpet judgements( the wrath of Satan where we are tested and purified). We do not experience the bowl judgments that are poured out almost at once during the10 days we are raptured.

Through the leading of the Holy Spirit, I truly believe the Lord has led me to these conclusions from scriptures and your site and the fivedoves site has helped me in that regard even though I have come to different conclusions that most. Blessings

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.
> > I personally believe there is only one rapture, and that occurs on some future Feast of Trumpets. The Day(s) of the Lord begin at the time also - as you know the Feast of Trumpets is two days but really considered one long day.

As you know, I think there will be two Raptures, one for the wise virgins before the Tribulation and one for the foolish virgins on the Feast of Trumpets that is the first day of the millennial reign of Christ.

There are two trumps of God to call his saints to Heaven. The first trump of God is in I Thess. 4:13-18. The "last trump" of God is in I Cor. 15:51,52.

The type of the two trumps, i.e., the two Raptures) is in Nu. 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, AND FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with them (i.e., both, Mt. 24:31; Mark. 13:27), all the ASSEMBLY (as in Heb. 12:23) shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (i.e., in Heaven). And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

At the first Rapture, ONE TRUMP OF GOD WILL SOUND (I Thess. 4:16). At the second Rapture, BOTH TRUMPS OF GOD WILL SOUND. The first will call the saints that are already in Heaven to the "GENERAL ASSEMBLY" in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). The "LAST TRUMP" will call the Tribulation saint from Earth to the GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN HEAVEN.

Mt. 24:31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN (the wise Philadelphian virgin saints that were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture) to the other."

Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the foolish Laodicean virgins, the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

> > I also believe both passages (Luke and Matthew) refer to that same time frame since the Day of Lord begins as we are raptured.

The Day of the Lord cannot begin until after Elijah comes (Mal. 4:5). The Day of the Lord is the day of the second Rapture. It comes BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL IS BROKEN. However, there are saints in Heaven BEFORE THE 1ST SEAL IS BROKEN. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). They are made "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10). The Tribulation saints of Rev. 7:14,15 are "before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple." There is a difference.

In Rev. 5:9's "hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF every kindred," the word "ek" is translated "out of."

The word "ek" could also be translated "out of" in Rev. 3:10, for the wise virgin Philadelphian saints are to be kept "from" (ek, out of) the trial that is to come upon the whole world during the Tribulation. Of Jesus' coming at the Pre-Trib Rapture, verse 11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." I'm holding fast.

The two groups sing the new song. Those of the first Rapture sing "a new song" in Rev. 5:9. Those of the second Rapture sing "as it were a new song" in Rev. 14:3.

Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He BROUGHT ME UP (a Rapture) also out of an horrible pit (i.e., Earth, as Jeremiah was pulled out of the miry pit), out of the miry clay (i.e., earthen bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the planet Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Pre-Trib Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." Those that trust in the LORD after the Pre-Trib Rapture become Tribulation saints.

> > I also believe we are only with the Lord until Tishri 10 when we return with him.

I believe that the Day of the Lord that is the Day of God's Wrath is on the Feast of Trumpets. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place between 6 PM and noon (Zeph. 2:3-5).

Job 5:19-24 says, "He shall DELIVER (NATSAL, snatch or take away, i.e., rapture) thee (i.e., Tribulation saints of Rev. 7) in six troubles (i.e., 6th seal, Eve of Trumpets, Rev. 6:12f): yea, in seven (i.e., 7th seal, Rev. 8) there shall no evil touch thee. In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword. Thou shalt be HID (i.e., raptured, Zeph. 2:3-5) from the scourge of the tongue: neither shalt thou be afraid of DESTRUCTION when it cometh (i.e., at noon [Zeph. 2:3-5] on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of the Lord). At destruction (i.e., on the Day of the Lord) and famine (during 1st half of Tribulation, Rev. 6:5,6) thou shalt laugh: neither shalt thou be afraid of the beasts of the earth (i.e., the Beast and False Prophet, Rev. 13). For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field: and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee. And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt VISIT THY HABITATION (i.e., in Heaven), and shalt not sin."

Psa. 144,5-9 says, "Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and COME DOWN (i.e., in the air at the Pre-Wrath Rapture): touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them. Send thine hand from above; rid me, and DELIVER (NATSAL, snatch or take away, i.e., rapture) me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children; Whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood. I will sing a NEW SONG (the 144,000 will sing 'as it were a NEW SONG,' Rev. 14:3) unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee."

In the Gospel in the Stars, the flock of the Lesser Sheepfold Constellation are raptured before the Tribulation. The flock of the Greater Sheepfold (Rev. 7:9) are raptured just before the Wrath of God hits Earth at noon on the Feast of Trumpets. Eze. 34:10 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require MY FLOCK (i.e., those of the Greater Sheepfold) at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will DELIVER (NATSAL, snatch or take away, i.e., rapture) MY FLOCK from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them."

Following the Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 38:18-20) are 7 months that the Jews bury the dead to cleanse the land for Christ's return in glory at the Second Advent on Nisan 1 in a Jewish Leap Year with the 13th month.

Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The First Advent was as the former rain on Tishri 1. The Second Advent will be as the latter rain on Nisan 1. That is the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year, Regnal because he is King of kings, Sacred because he is Lord of lords.

> > I believe Tishri 3 -9 will be the marriage ceremony (7 days as is traditional and not a 7 year interpretation).

I believe that the Marriage of the Lamb will be in Heaven on Tishri 1. That's when all the saints from both Heaven (Mt. 24:31) and Earth (Mark 13:27) are called to the "general assembly" in Heaven (Heb. 12:23).

> > I believe the future Tishri 1 occurs at the end of the 6th Seal and also the 6th Trumpet. I believe the church goes through the trumpet judgements ( the wrath of Satan where we are tested and purified).

I think the SIXTH SEAL is broken on the Eve of Trumpets and the SEVENTH SEAL will be broken on the Feast of Trumpets. The 6th trumpet comes out of the seventh seal.

The seven trumpet judgments are the wrath of God. EVERY SAINT, great or small, is in Heaven receiving their rewards when the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth.

Rev. 11:16-19 says, "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God (in Heaven, Rev. 4:4) on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art (on the Day of God's Wrath), and wast (at the First Coming), and art to come (at the Second Advent 7 months future, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (this Tishri 1 will be Christ's Coronation Day; it's the first day of the Millennium). And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), AND that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (that has in it the two tablets of stone): and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail" (i.e., when the TWO STONES of Rev. 8:8 and 10 are dumped on Earth).

> > We do not experience the bowl judgments that are poured out almost at once during the10 days we are raptured.

The Lord comes quickly at the Pre-Trib Rapture. We will be in Heaven until the Second Advent. In Rev. 2:5, Jesus said, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I WILL COME UNTO THEE QUICKLY, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." He signs off in Rev. 22:20 with, "Surely I come quickly. Amen."

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is written as if Christ stood on the pinnacle of the Pre-Trib Rapture and looked both backward and forward to tell us of events. The Pre-Trib Rapture is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). In 22:7, Jesus said, "Behold, I come QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book." Rev. 1:3 says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND."

In Rev. 1:19, Jesus told John to "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Pre-Trib Rapture), and the things which are (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" ("hereafter" the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 4:1).

John is one of the 24 elders seen on their thrones in Heaven in 4:4. When he is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, the rest of the 24 elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel) are caught up too. We can see in Rev. 5:9 that saints out of all nations are caught up with John, not just 24 saints of Israel. These translated saints are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9).

The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. Rain fell, but no fire.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. The "same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Luke 17:29). This is the Feast of Trumpets that is the Day of the Lord that will come with destruction. Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty shall it come."

The Pre-Trib Rapture is prefigured by the rapture of Enoch. Gen. 5:24 says, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." As it was in the days of Noah, no fire fell.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture was prefigured by the rapture of Elijah. He fled from those that wanted to kill him. As it was in the days of Lot, when fire fell that same day (Luke 17:29), Elijah was caught up out of that tribulation in a chariot of FIRE. II Kings 2:11 says, "behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Agape

Space Probes Feel Cosmic Tug Of Bizarre Forces

By Robin McKie, 9-12-4
http://www.rense.com/general57/tug.htm

Something strange is tugging at America's oldest spacecraft. As the Pioneer 10 and 11 probes head towards distant stars, scientists have discovered that the craft - launched more than 30 years ago - appear to be in the grip of a mysterious force that is holding them back as they sweep out of the solar system....

Sunken forest found after 6500 years

By VICKY COLLINS
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/23678.html

...This treasure, however, is a forest in Orkney, which was buried beneath rising sea levels 6500 years ago. Alistair Rennie discovered it while doing a PhD looking at the effect of rising sea levels in the area, which he hopes will inform methods of dealing with climate change....

After digging a few more holes, Mr Rennie and his team were able to collect 12 samples of trees which they took back to Glasgow for identification. He said: "It turned out the trees were salix, which is a willow tree, although they weren't able to identify the type of willow. It looks like these trees would have been quite substantial, about 9ft tall." The samples were then taken to the Scottish Universities Environmental Research Centre in East Kilbride, where carbon dating revealed that the trees were 6500 years old. As well as the excitement of the discovery, Mr Rennie said the forest had helped him conclude that sea levels had risen by three metres since the trees were alive in 4496BC.

"This is a lot, but over that period of time it is not that worrying," Mr Rennie said.

Mr Rennie, who has now almost completed his PhD, will present his findings at the Orkney Science Festival today.

IT has all the ingredients of an Indiana Jones adventure: an academic, an old map, and a search for hidden treasure older than the pyramids of Egypt. This treasure, however, is a forest in Orkney, which was buried beneath rising sea levels 6500 years ago. Alistair Rennie discovered it while doing a PhD looking at the effect of rising sea levels in the area, which he hopes will inform methods of dealing with climate change. His studies, funded jointly by Scottish Natural Heritage and Glasgow University's geography department, took Mr Rennie and his colleagues to Sanday, Orkney, which he described as a "sinking island".

The 27-year-old said: "We looked at a series of beaches there and we came across poems and letters and legends suggesting there was this submerged forest on the other side of the island at Otterswick Bay.

"A man called Dr Triall had written about a woman who walked down to the bay after a storm in 1838. The sand on the beach had been all whipped up and she saw a huge expanse of what looked like black moss where there should only have been more sand.

"We also came across an old map. It was produced in 1847 by a Commander Becker and the submerged forest was marked on it. "He had not seen it himself it referred to what someone had said they had seen before. It wasn't quite X marks the spot, but it gave us a good idea of where to look."

Mr Rennie then went out in search of the forest and, after researching any possible environmental impacts, decided to use a JCB to dig into the sand on the bay during low tide.

"The first five holes were unsuccessful and I was beginning to think the forest wasn't there. But then in the sixth hole we came across it."

In fact, it was actually a layer of peat containing parts of trees, the biggest about the size of a man's thigh.

After digging a few more holes, Mr Rennie and his team were able to collect 12 samples of trees which they took back to Glasgow for identification. He said: "It turned out the trees were salix, which is a willow tree, although they weren't able to identify the type of willow. It looks like these trees would have been quite substantial, about 9ft tall."

The samples were then taken to the Scottish Universities Environmental Research Centre in East Kilbride, where carbon dating revealed that the trees were 6500 years old. As well as the excitement of the discovery, Mr Rennie said the forest had helped him conclude that sea levels had risen by three metres since the trees were alive in 4496BC....

My comments

That is before Adam, whom I think was created in BC 4044. The buried forest suggests that there was a cataclysm before but near the time of God's re-creation of the Earth.

To me, this makes it easier to understand Gen. 1:28 and 2:5. "God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and REPLENISH the earth...And every plant OF THE FIELD BEFORE IT was in the earth, and every herb OF THE FIELD BEFORE IT grew..."

Earth's Magnetic Field Is Fading

Earth's Magnetic Field Is Fading, By: John Roach, Sept 9, 2004
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0909_040909_earthmagfield.html

Earth's magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845, scientists say....

Cassini Reveals New Ring Around Saturn

By Maggie McKee, 9-10-4
http://www.rense.com/general57/cassinirevealsnew.htm

A delicate new ring and possibly two new moons have been spotted around Saturn by the US-European Cassini mission, astronomers announced Thursday.

Astronomers at Queen Mary University of London, UK, detected a faint dust ring 300 kilometres wide in images taken by the spacecraft since July 2004. The ring lies 1200 km beyond the main ring system, between the bright, wide A ring and the faint, outermost F ring. It has been seen in an arc spanning about a tenth of the rings' circumference and may extend all the way around the planet.

Its location coincides with that of Saturn's moon Atlas, suggesting the moon is shedding pieces of itself as it collides with micrometeorites in its orbit. "The ring is being constantly replenished," team member Mike Evans told New Scientist, likening the process to the two moons thought to cause Jupiter's dusty ring....

Incoming email, Re: Who Are The Ten Virgins ?

One thing I don't understand about the five foolish virgins is when Jesus said to them, "depart from Me, I never knew you'. If they we're born again believers, who had the oil of The Holy Spirit, how could Jesus say He never knew them?

I appreciate you and Ed. I pray for your health always. Hopefully in December, all our pain and suffering will be over and we can say It Was Worth It All.

My reply

In the KJV, Mt 25:12,13 says, "Verily I say unto you (foolish virgins), I KNOW (eido, properly SEE) YOU NOT." Figuratively speaking, at the time of the Rapture of the wise virgins, Jesus didn't see the lamps of the foolish virgins shining brightly in the midnight darkness. He took with him those whose lamps were burning brightly.

It's strange, but all three of the adults living in this house, Ed, Dave and myself, have bad back troubles. Dave said he just figured a certain one was doing it. I responded that I intended to pass every test, no matter what.

I'm sure you are right, the day will come when "we can say It Was Worth It All." Thanks for your prayers. Agape

From Five Doves site

Sam Orlando (15 Sep 2004)
"RAPTURE on the Feast of Tabernacles"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2004/samo915.htm

> > One last thought. Mrs. Agee stated that the verse "..many would see (the rapture) and believe" would fit more with tabernacles than at any other time of the year in Israel. Everyone would be dwelling in booths outside, and what better place to call an assembly than over theHoly Land before our departure. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

My reply, Re: My thoughts on the possible date of the Rapture

Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (lit., bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (as Jeremiah was lifted out of a miry pit), out of the miry clay (i.e., out of our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings (at the Pre-Trib Rapture). And he hath put a NEW SONG (Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

To me, Friday, Dec. 17, 2004 (Teveth 5, 5765) seems a likely date for the Rapture. It is 2300 days (Dan. 8:13,14) before April 5, 2011 (Nisan 1, 5771), when the Second Advent could take place in a Jewish Leap Year. The year of the Second Advent has to be a Leap Year with a 13th month for there to be 7 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1. The next Leap Year after 5768 (2007/2008) will be 5771 (2010/2011).

Eze. 39:11-13 says, "it shall come to pass in that day (Day of God's Wrath, Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, probably Sept. 9, 2010), that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (Second Advent, possibly April 5, 2011, Nisan 1, 5771), saith the Lord GOD."

Dan. 8:13,14 says, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (first half of Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (shortened last half of the Tribulation)? And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED."

The sanctuary will be cleansed on Nisan 1. Eze. 45:18-21 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the FIRST MONTH (Nisan), IN THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month (Nisan), in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the PASSOVER"

De. 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS (i.e., Christ's) DUE SEASON, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN."

Hosea 5:7-15 says, "They have dealt treacherously against the LORD (YAHshua, Jesus Christ): for they have begotten strange children: NOW SHALL A MONTH (chodesh, new moon, i.e., Tishri 1) DEVOUR THEM...I (the LORD Jesus Christ) will go and return to my place (Heaven), till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." All Israel will be saved that day (Isa. 66:8).

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE (i.e., YAHshua, Jesus) SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, as (symbolic language) the latter (i.e., Second Advent) and former (i.e., First Advent) rain unto the earth." The former rain begins Tishri 1. The latter rain begins Nisan 1.

Eze. 29:18,21 says, "in the FIRST MONTH, in the FIRST DAY of the month...In that day will I cause the horn (i.e., king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Hosea 9:5,6 says, What will ye do in the solemn day, and in the day of the feast of the LORD" For, lo, they are gone because of destruction". The Day of Destruction, the Day of God's Wrath, is Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets.

Joel 2:23 says, "he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." Tishri 1 is the beginning of the Jewish Civil Year. Nisan 1 is the beginning of the Regnal and Sacred Year. Christ will return at the same time that all the other Hebrew kings were assumed to have taken office. Agape

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