Pro and Con 1149

Posted 9-21-04

Incoming email, Re: My thoughts on the possible date of the Rapture

From: Sam Orlando

I would agree that December 17th 2004 seems like a good day for the tribulation to start for sure which would tie in with the 2300 days ending on Nissan 1. However it would not be against any scripture that I am aware of if the Rapture happened any time before that, such as on the feast of Tabernacles. If their is any scripture that shows other wise I would appreciate it if you would let us know. Thanks. Sam

My reply

My thoughts, Re: Thunder at Rapture and beginning of the Tribulation

I now think that the Pre-Trib Rapture, the FIRST TRUMP, will take place on the same day that the Tribulation begins. I feel sure that the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the LAST TRUMP, will take place before "noon" (Zeph. 2:3-5) on the same day that the Millennium begins. If the LAST TRUMP will be on the same day that an identified chunk of time (the 1000-year Kingdom of Christ) begins, the FIRST TRUMP may also be on the same day that an identified chunk of time (the Tribulation) begins. God works in orderly ways.

We know from I Thess. 4:16,17 that there will be a great noise at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

That night, we will be taken to Heaven. In John 14:3, Jesus said, "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Since He will not be on Earth during the Tribulation, we will not be on Earth during the Tribulation either.

What will the first trump of God sound like at the first Rapture? The type is found in Ex. 19. Verse 4 says, "I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself", and the first trumpet of God in the Bible sounded at Mt. Sinai.

Ex. 19:16-20 says, "it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were THUNDERS and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and THE VOICE OF THE TRUMPET EXCEEDING LOUD; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because THE LORD DESCENDED upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the VOICE OF THE TRUMPET sounded long, and WAXED LOUDER AND LOUDER, Moses spake, and God answered him by a VOICE. And the LORD CAME DOWN upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and THE LORD CALLED MOSES UP to the top of the mount; and MOSES WENT UP."

Job 40:9 asks, "Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou THUNDER WITH A VOICE LIKE HIM?" There was THUNDER when the LORD CALLED MOSES UP. This seems significant. Maybe there will be thunder at the Rapture.

When do we find thunder in "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"? It is only mentioned twice in the book, near or at the time of both Raptures.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, Rev. 6:1 says, "I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were (symbolic language) THE NOISE OF THUNDER, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see." This is after saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" sing a "NEW SONG" (Rev. 5:9) before the throne in Heaven. These are Bride saints wearing white robes, Philadelphians for whom Jesus had no words of condemnation, not Laodiceans that lacked "white raiment" (Rev. 3:16-18).

AT THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, Rev. 14:2 says, "I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, AS THE VOICE OF MANY WATERS, AND AS (symbolic language) THE VOICE OF A GREAT THUNDER: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they (the 144,000 Israelites) sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne" in Heaven.

At the second Rapture, only the 144,000 can sing the "new song." Rev. 14:3 says, "they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

At the second Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites are added to the Bride group already in Heaven. Rev. 14:4,5 says, "These are they which were not defiled with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."

Jesus Christ is THE FIRSTFRUIT/FIRSTFRUITS. I Cor. 15:20 says, "now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept."

Both the Church saints and the 144,000 Israelites are also FIRSTFRUITS. In Romans 8:23, Paul said, "ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 16:5 says, "Likewise greet the CHURCH that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the FIRSTFRUITS of Achaia unto Christ." James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures."

I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank, i.e., of the First Resurrection): Christ the FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." He comes in the air at both Raptures.

Christ will keep the first group of saints OUT OF the Tribulation trial that will come upon all the Earth. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek, OUT OF) the hour of temptation (peirazo, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

The second group of saints come OUT OF the Tribulation. Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which came OUT OF (ek) great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

It looks like the Pre-Trib Rapture at beginning of the Tribulation is marked by thunder. The Pre-Wrath Rapture and the beginning of the Millennium are also marked by thunder. That is the Day of God's Wrath when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 impact Earth. Isa. 29:5-7 says, "it shall be at an instant suddenly. Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire. And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision." Psa. 81:7 says, "Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder". Agape

His reply

Your knowledge of scripture always amazes me. As long as its before the end of the year is fine with me. There are so many signs now it must be soon. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Sabbath

I hope you have time to reply.

I was reading some of your web letters. Very interesting and you seem to have very good insight.

Please tell me your oppinion on the Sabbath versus Sunday? It's all thru the bible, and it's in the comandments.

My wife is a Seventh day adventist and even tho I am a free agent Christian, this is something I agree with.

I'm sure that her church want's me to be baptized as a seventh day adventist. Sorry to disapoint them, but I plan on being baptized by someone of great faith (like john the baptist) who is not part of a limited thinking organization. I meet a lot of nice, but in my mind, misguided people who are to willing to be the sheep of the church rathern than the sheep of Christ with out question. Also, any insite or what you feel about the dead being asleep? This is also mentioned in quite a few places.

I personally believe I should study and understand as much information as I can absorb from as many great minds as I can obtain it from. Thank

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. You are wise to seek the truth, but keep in mind that everything must be compared with Scripture. It is the only real truth we have.

Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast, as Seventh Day Adventists believe, but Saturday, the seventh day of the week, really is the Sabbath. Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday, the first day of the week. Mt. 28:1,5,6 says, "In the end of the sabbath (the seventh day, Saturday), as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (Sunday), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre....I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen."

Gen. 2:1-3 says, "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day (Saturday) God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

In Old Testament times, the Israelites were to keep the seventh-day Sabbath. Ex. 20:8 says, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

However, in our days (New Testament times), we are free to worship God on whatever day we choose. Col. 2:16,17 says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH DAYS, WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ."

God's rest on the seventh day of the week in Genesis 2:1-3 is the type of the seventh 1000-year day, the Millennium, when Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. The Millennium is called the "sabbatismos," a "rest to the people of God" (Heb. 4:9).

Heb. 3:17-19; 4:1-11 says, "with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into HIS REST (katapausis, rest, place of resting down, abode), but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST (katapausis), any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest (katapausis), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (katapausis): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest (katapausis) the SEVENTH DAY from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST(katapausis). Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest (katapausis), then would he not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY. There remaineth therefore a rest (SABBATISMOS, a Sabbath rest, i.e., during the seventh millennium) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest (katapausis), he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest (katapausis), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

> > Also, any insite or what you feel about the dead being asleep? This is also mentioned in quite a few places.

To me, there is no such thing as soul sleep. I think the dead are fully conscious. This was revealed in the New Testament. Read about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was dead, and in Hades, the abode or prison of the lost, but he could still think, feel, talk, see, hear and remember.

Also, on Resurrection Day, Jesus preached unto the dead. They could hear him. I Peter 3:18,19 says, "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the SPIRITS in prison."

Eph. 4:8 says, "When he (Jesus) ascended up on high (on Resurrection Day), he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Jesus took the saved in "Abraham's bosom" to Heaven and then returned to Earth that same day.

Early in the morning on Resurrection Day, Jesus could not be touched. John 20:17 says, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." In the evening, he could be touched. Agape

Incoming email, Re: STRATFOR-Syria

...Egyptian Foreign Service sources say Mubarak visited Damascus to ensure Palestinian factions under Syria's influence will agree to the proposed Israeli cease-fire at an upcoming Egyptian-sponsored all-Palestinian meeting. Such assurance would mean Israel would have no reason to delay its pullout from Gaza. Mubarak also said supporting the cease-fire would be a critical step toward Israel's agreement to re-enter peace talks with Syria; if Syria can persuade the Palestinians to sign the treaty, Washington can again persuade Israel to enter diplomatic talks.

Incoming email, Re: Question about the Jewish Calendar

I know you have probably addressed this question several times in your pros and cons but if we are in the 6000th year, why is the Jewish year 5765???

My sister and I study prophecy and end time events but obviously not as much as you. :) Anyway we were talking last night and neither one of us could answer that question. I said, "I bet Marilyn could answer that one!"

Can you help us? Thank you so much!

My reply

The present Jewish Calendar didn't start until BC 3761. Agape

The Weight of the World

As Israelis and Arabs bicker, the Temple Mount risks collapse

..."I am an architect, but also I am a Palestinian who is part of this conflict," Awwad told Time. "So I made an initiative" to convert those chambers into mosques. In 1996, Awwad began renovating an underground hall called Solomon's Stables. The 4,000-sq-m hall was used by the Crusaders to stable their horses...When Awwad was done in early 2000, it was dubbed the Marwani Mosque....

...Israelis say that since the reconstruction, a bulge in the Mount's southern wall has started to warp much faster, and a section of the eastern wall has begun to lean outward. "There's an immediate danger of collapse in the eastern and southern walls," says Shuka Dorfman, head of the Antiquities Authority. Awwad says a team of Jordanian experts is fixing the problem in the southern wall and will soon move onto the eastern wall....

Incoming email, Re: The 3 stages of the Harvest (resurrection)

I have been reading your web page for several years now, and have written to you a few times. I do have another question for you. I realize that it is difficult for you to take the time to answer because of your hip problems. I understand that as well as my mother just got her hip replaced after suffering with it for years. So, here's my question which I will premise first with how I try to study and understand scripture. Since no scripture "is of any private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20) there must be other verses that verify and idea one thinks is coming from it, and since "all things happened to them for ensamples (by way of example)" (1 Cor. 10:11), the lives in the Old Testament were recorded for us to be an example and an explanation to us and written for "our admonition" as we wait for and approach the end of the"world" or age, to come. There are many examples in the Old Testament those being removed and then comes judgment upon the earth- Enoch removed prior to the flood, Lot and his family forcibly removed before destrucion fell, Noah and his family safely in the Ark before a drop of rain appeared, the first born of Isreal were safe before the death angel came through the land, the spies who went to Jericho were safely removed before the city fell...

I also have learned that according to the law of the harvest in the Old Testament, there are three aspect: firstfruits, harvest and the gleanings. The firstfruits is plural. In Matt. 27:51-53, the graves of many were opend at the time of the rending of the veil of the Temple, but bodies of the saints stayed in the graves three days and three nights. They did not come out until after the resurrection of Christ. Eph. 4:8 says that when Christ ascended on high He lead captivity captive. This could well be those saints who arose immediately after His resurrection and who ascended with Him, comprising the firstfruits. The main harvest has its counterpart in those who are Christ's at His appearing (1 Cor. 15:23). This group is divided into two sections as described in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. (1) the dead in Christ (This is a new Tesament experience and can therefore mean only the New Testament saints who have died in the Lord); (2) Those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord. The expression IN CHRIST is not an Old Testament expression at all; so this main harvest at the resurrection does not include the Old Testament saints. The next in the order of the harvest is Old Testament and great tribulation saints. Dan 12:1 tells of the tribulation and describes it as a time of trouble His people Israel. This is the third phase of the first resurrection, and is the fulfillment of the type called "the gleanings".

Now with this all said, I have seen examples over and over, those being removed and then judgment. Where in scripture do you have an example of the end of a time period, the righteous being taken out and then the "backslidden" being given more time to become right with the Lord before they too come to a place where they have to account for their life before the Lord. God was very long suffering with the Jews during their time in the wilderness, but when the time came to their entering the promised land, it came once, they had one chance to enter in. They forfeited the blessing of entering into a rulership comprised of them and the God of the Universe within the promised land because of lack of belief. There was no repenting of God ( no turning from His decision) even though as Esau, they sought it from Him. Even though the whole unit (the children of Isreal) were present when the time to enter in came, those who forfieted it through the lack of faith recieved their judgment prior to Caleb and Joshua receiving the blessing and being allowed to enter in. To offer Christians a second chance to come into a better standing with the Lord during the tribulation because the didn't seek it prior to the set date of accountability doesn't jive with what I have learned of the Lord. The fact that there are Christians in heaven that seek to recieve more than they actually qualified for in this life is evident in the man showing up at the wedding feast without the proper attire (no wedding garment- the righteous acts of the saints) This is done by those in heaven after the day of accounting has past. I am not contending that there is the 3rd stage of the harvest (resurrection) but I am contending those that will be involved in that resurrection. I see a grave danger in allowing Christians to believe that after the rapture, there is still time to get ready. The time to get ready for the rapture is now for all Christians, there are no second chances. The time is short for ALL christians to come to accountability before the Lord.

My reply

> > There are many examples in the Old Testament those being removed and then comes judgment upon the earth- Enoch removed prior to the flood

Enoch and Elijah were both raptured. To me, they are types of the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Raptures.

Enoch was a Gentile prophet of God (Jude 14), a believer that walked with God. There was no judgment mentioned immediately following his Rapture. He was not caught up in a chariot of fire. Noah's Flood was still 604 years in the future. Gen. 5:24 says, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." There was no fire. At the first trump of God (I Thess. 4:16), the Pre-Trib Rapture, those wise virgins walking with God will be taken.

The Hebrew Elijah was a prophet of God whom King Ahab, and later Ahaziah, were trying to kill. Elijah fled to the brook Cherith and was fed by ravens, much like the Israelites will flee to Petra and be brought food by air drops.

There was fire when Elijah was raptured. II Kings 2:11 says, "there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

Elijah represents the 144,000 Israelites that will come out of Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:1-14) at the last trump of God (I Cor. 15:51,52). Fire will fall that same day, for it is the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17).

Those being caught up in both Raptures are still one body, the Body of Christ. I Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

The first Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell, only rain, a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The second Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day (Luke 17:29). Also, the Pre-Trib Rapture is as Daniel being taken up out of the lion's den. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as his friends being taken up out of the fiery furnace.

> > 1 Thess. 4:13-18. (1) the dead in Christ (This is a new Tesament experience and can therefore mean only the New Testament saints who have died in the Lord); (2) Those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord. The expression IN CHRIST is not an Old Testament expression at all; so this main harvest at the resurrection does not include the Old Testament saints.

I think the Pre-Trib Rapture includes Old Testament saints. There is one body (Rom. 12:5). Eph. 2:14-18 says, "he is our peace, who hath made BOTH ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."

The OT saints were taken to Heaven on Resurrection Day, and will return with Christ to get their resurrection bodies. Then, we will be caught up with them to meet Christ in the air. Heb. 11:39,40 says, "these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

> > Where in scripture do you have an example of the end of a time period, the righteous being taken out and then the "backslidden" being given more time to become right with the Lord

In Rev. 3:16-21, Jesus says to the foolish Laodicean virgins, "because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL SPUE THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH (i.e., at the first Rapture). Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold (symbol of deity, i.e., the Holy Spirit) tried in the FIRE (i.e., the Tribulation), that thou mayest be rich; and WHITE RAIMENT, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten (i.e., in the Tribulation): be zealous therefore, and REPENT. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. TO HIM THAT OVERCOMETH WILL I GRANT TO SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE" (i.e., at the Second Rapture).

Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES (i.e., have repented and confessed their sins, I John 1:9), and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

> > I see a grave danger in allowing Christians to believe that after the rapture, there is still time to get ready. The time to get ready for the rapture is now for all Christians, there are no second chances.

The words "second chance" do not appear in the Bible. Yet, Peter denied Christ when he was taken prisioner, and was given another chance. The second Rapture is another chance. I think that as long as we are alive, we have a chance, but after death, the judgment. Heb. 9:27 says, "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". Agape

Incoming email, Re: Ossuaries are proven fakes


I just wanted to say thank you for giving me insight into the rest of the story. I have been curious, but I could not find further info on it. I was looking on Biblical Archaeology Review, and realized that there are a lot of archeological finds that I've not even heard of. That is truly exciting. I really do thank you. I believe that it would be great to put a definite "Yes, it is real" stamp of approval on the ossuary.

I have a video called Who is this Jesus?, it is very interesting because it has both sides, science and Christians debating the truth of the Scriptures. Most of science agrees in part that the Holy Bible has quite a bit of truth in it, they just cannot accept that there could possibly be a God controlling the universe. It is narrated by Dean Jones (From 60's-70's Disney and other movies), and Dr. D. James Kennedy. In the end when you see just how much science does agree with the truth, and then taking a good look at Scripture and the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies (which most of science agrees with in part), it just seems to be natural that there is a God in heaven looking over us. Of course, I have had my entire life changed in a very positive way by him, so I a firm believer anyway.

Again, Thank you in Jesus' name. Marty

My reply

My Home Page has more information on ossuaries that have been found. The ossuaries of Jesus' family, of Simon of Cyrene and of Simon Bar Jona (Peter) have been found. Peter's was found on the Mt. of Olives. If genuine, and it seems that it is, that rules out Peter's being buried under the Vatican, as has been claimed. Agape

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