Pro and Con 1152

Posted 10-8-04

I can now see that the birthday of Jesus would have been Sept. 5, BC 5, not Sept. 4. When the crescent Moon was sighted, the NEXT DAY was Tishri 1.

I have also changed my mind on the Wise Men visiting Jesus when he was about 2 years old. He would have been only a few months old. Details below.

Incoming email, Re: Christ's Birthdate Question?

I do not know if you are familiar with the excellent work of E.L. Martin ( , "The Star that Astonished the World"; but, his conclusion that the birthdate was Sep. 11, 3 BC, is in my opinion much more likely than any other date. My own extensive research over the past 12 years into this subject is highly supportive of his conclusions and additional discoveries surrounding this date add more weight to its significance, once again in my opinion.

The approaching Venus/Regulus conjunction tomorrow, Sunday, Oct. 3rd thru the Oct. 13th period has the potential to be quite exciting both astronomically and perhaps prophetically, we shall see. Sincerely

My reply

I too researched the date of Jesus' birth at length. I looked up everything I could find on it at BIOLA's library in La Mirada, CA, even reading old handwritten MSS in the rare books section. If I remember right, some were written in the 17th century. They were hard to read, because the final "s" looked like an "f.

Ernest L. Martin's "Star that astonished the world" was given to me by a good friend that knew the author personally. In spite of all Martin's research, I still think Jesus was born on Tishri 1, 3756, Sept. 4, BC 5 (revised to Sept. 5, BC 5). However, the Wise Men probably visited the Christ child in BC 3. They went to see him as a toddler at a house in Bethlehem. He would have been two, or under, for Herod had the males two and under killed in Bethlehem. (I now think Jesus was just a few months old at that time, reasons below.)

Herod began to rebuild the temple in BC 20/19 (3742). Construction had been in progress 46 years (John 2:13; a block of time, therefore measured by Jewish inclusive reckoning) in AD 27 (3787). That was the year of the first Passover of Jesus' ministry.

Jesus was baptized near his 30th birthday on Tishri 1, 3786. That was the 15th year of Tiberius (Luke 3:1), who was Co-Rex with his father, Augustus, in 12 AD. Tiberius was made the designated heir in 10 AD, but started to rule as Co-Rex in 12 AD. Tiberius became Sole-Rex when Augustus died in 14 AD. Coins like the one pictured below were minted in 12 and 13 AD. They showed Tiberius as the designated heir of Augustus.

Tiberius was actually sole ruler over Palestine from 12 AD on. Augustus concerned himself with other parts of his realm.

I am convinced that Jesus was crucified on the Preparation of the Passover, Nisan 13, 3790 (Thursday, April 6, 30 AD). I think he was born on Tishri 1, 3756 (Monday, Sept 4, BC 5, now revised to: Tuesday, Sept. 5, BC 5).

In De. 11:14, the Lord said, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." Hosea 6:3 says, " the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." Jesus came as the former rain on Tishri 1 at the First Advent. He will come as the latter rain on Nisan 1 at the Second Advent.

> > The approaching Venus/Regulus conjunction tomorrow, Sunday, Oct. 3rd thru the Oct. 13th

Venus was near Regulus, the king star, on Sept. 4 (and 5) in BC 5, too. Agape


By Marilyn Agee
On Pro and Con 1151, I quoted Rev. Bruce Goettsche

He said that "William Barclay wrote,
In the years 5 to 2 B.C. there was an unusual astronomical phenomenon. In those years, on the first day of the Egyptian month, Mesori, Sirius, the dog star, rose at sunrise, and shone with extraordinary brilliance. Now the name MESORI MEANS THE BIRTH OF A PRINCE..."

(, I found out that the month of Mesore began June 14.

June 14, BC 5, might have been when the Wise Men first saw the star in the east that they interpreted as a sign of the coming "BIRTH OF A PRINCE," i.e., Jesus. On each of the 30 days of MESORI, the extra-bright SIRIUS would have heralded the coming "BIRTH OF A PRINCE".

In Mt. 2:2 (New English Bible), the Wise Men told Herod, "We observed the rising of his star." This fits Sirius, and not Regulus, the king star in Leo, for the Sun was in Gemini. Leo was overhead during the daytime.

On June 14, four naked-eye planets were lined up along the ecliptic, Venus in Gemini, Mercury and Jupiter in Taurus, and Saturn in Aries. Jesus is the Bridegroom in Gemini, the Leader or Governor (the meaning of the brightest star) in Taurus, and the Lamb of God in Aries.

On both June 14 and Sept. 5 in BC 5, Sirius, Venus and Jupiter formed a very bright triangle in the sky. Sirius is the brightest star. Venus is the brightest planet. Jupiter is the 2nd brightest planet. That alone would have commanded attention, but joined to it was another triangle made up of Sirius, Jupiter and Saturn, the 3rd brightest planet. These bright morning stars would be hard to miss if early risers looked at the sky.

The first sky chart below is Sept. 4, BC 5. The crescent Moon is even with Virgo's feet. The second chart is Sept. 5, BC 5. It fits better. When the Jews sighted the crescent Moon, Tishri 1 was the next day. The crescent Moon is definitely under her feet on Sept 5. Rev. 12:1 says, "there appeared a great wonder (sign) in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet".

September 4, BC 5, at 5 PM

September 5, BC 5, at 6:40 AM

According to the Jewish calendar laws used now, Tishri 1 can't be on Sunday, Wednesday or Friday. A Tuesday Feast of Trumpets fits just fine.

"Wait a minute," I told myself as I read what I wrote about Jesus being about 2 when the Wise Men visited him.
Here are my second thoughts on how old Jesus was.

I just read Mt. 2 and Luke 2 again--very carefully, and changed my mind.

When did the Wise Men visit Jesus?

I no longer think it possible that Jesus could have been nearly two years old, as I've said before. It seems that it was after the first 40 days and before he was taken to Egypt. Forty days after Sept. 5 was Oct. 15, BC 5.

Jesus would have been circumcised on Tishri 8 (counted by inclusive reckoning). Luke 2:21 says, "when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS."

Luke 2:22 says, "when the days of her (Mary's) purification (40 days) according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him (Jesus) to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord." When brought to the temple, Simeon and Anna recognized who Jesus really was. Simeon prophecied about him and said he was"salvation" and "a sign". Anna "spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem."

After the Wise Men visited him, Jesus was taken to Egypt. Mt. 2:13,15 says, "when they (the Wise Men) "were DEPARTED, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and FLEE INTO EGYPT, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him....And was there until the death of Herod". Herod the Great probably died between the eclipse of March 13 and Passover in BC 4.

As Ernest Martin said on page 219 in "The Star that Astonished the World," "If one dates his (one of the immediate successors of Herod, Antipas') reign from 4 B.C., it means he would have had a reign of 43 years. Indeed, there are three coins of Antipas marked with the regnal year 43."

I assume that those coins are correct. The year 4 BC for the death of Herod and the beginning of the reigns of both Herod Antipas and Herod Archelaus dovetail nicely with what I already know.

Here is "A set of four different bronze coins of Herod Archelaus¸ B.C 4 – 6 C.E."

Here is some more information on "Herod Archeleus, Ethnarch 4 B.C. - 6 A.D."

"Son of Herod the Great, he inherited the southern part of his fathers kingdom ...Judaea, Samaria and Idumaea. Jerusalem was his capital. Augustus denied him the title king and gave him the title ethnarch, with a promise to name him king if he governed well. He was so unpopular with his subjects that Augustus deposed him, banished him to Gaul and annexed his territory."

After the Wise Men went home by another route, Herod had the children of Bethlehem that were 2 and under slain. Also, Mt. 2:11 says, "when they (the Wise Men) were come into the HOUSE, they saw the YOUNG CHILD (paidion, Strong's 3813 "[prop.] AN INFANT," a little or young child) with Mary." Because of these two things, it was easy to assume, as do many others, that Jesus was about 2 years old at that time, but now that I look at this closely, that just doesn't seem possible. Sometimes, it doesn't pay to follow in other's footsteps, even if it sounds reasonable.


Tishri 1, 3756 (Jesus' birth on Sept. 5, BC 5, beginning of the year, near the autumnal equinox), to Nisan 14, 3756 (Passover, the following spring) just after Herod died, and after which Jesus was taken FROM EGYPT TO NAZARETH) is only 6.5 months, or 7.5 if 3756 was a Jewish Leap Year. I don't think Jesus was in Egypt very long.

How could Jesus be 2 years old when the Wise Men came to visit him? They came BEFORE he was taken to Egypt. Mt. 2:13 says, "when they (the Wise Men) "were DEPARTED, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and FLEE INTO EGYPT."

After Jesus returned from Egypt, he was taken to NAZARETH, not Bethlehem. Mt. 2:19-23 says, "when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called NAZARETH".

Luke 2:39 says, "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city NAZARETH."

Babylon loses shine as UN body removes it from World Heritage List

Baghdad, Iraq Press, May 29, 04 – The UN cultural body, UNESCO, has scrapped Babylon from its World Heritage List, raising concerns whether the ancient city still keeps traces of its past glamour....

In mid-1980s the dictator ordered his engineers to rebuilt the once magnificent ruins of Babylon, 90 kilometers south of Baghdad, to the exact specifications and splendor it had in the days of its great monarch, Nebuchadnezzar.

But the scientists say instead of renovating Saddam Hussein ruined what remained of the ancient city prompting UNESCO to remove it from its heritage list which currently includes 754 sites.... Polish troops have taken Babylon as their headquarters and barracks and the experts fear that the presence of soldiers has added to what they describes as “the calamity” that descended on the city at the hands of Saddam Hussein. Today Babylon is off limits to visitors and the Antiquities Department experts say they have not been to the site since the US-led coalition toppled Saddam Hussein’s regime more than a year ago....

My comments

God is in charge. Maybe this paves the way for Babylon to be rebuilt with the headquarters of both the UN and UR located there. If Babylon is already ruined, the presence of high-rise buildings, hotels, apartment buildings, modern streets, parking lots, restaurants, grocery stores, malls, tourists, etc., won't matter.

Incoming email, Re: The sound of the trumpet, by Jim Bramlett

Ten-year-old Marissa of Arizona has continued having visions of heaven and lately in her visions has been hearing a trumpet sounding. On September 29, 2004, she said, "I want to tell people that I continue to hear the trumpet sound everyday now. Each day it is a little louder than before."

"That's nice," I thought, "but what does it mean? I don't hear anything. It can't be the rapture trumpet because we are still here." I have repeated to myself, "What does it mean?"

Today I received a first-time message from a fellow I do not know which may contain the answer to my question. He described a prophetic dream, in part saying:

"Here is the dream and it was pretty vivid. I remember all the sudden I believe I was in my home when the sounds of shofars went off and could see people blowing them. One would blow then another in sequence of the other one that just blew his shofar, then the shofar noise became a straight sound coming forth from them like the sound of a trumpet. Then all the sudden I see this light coming forth in the sky and it began to get bigger and I remember saying to myself, "Is that a man?" And then this man got huge into full focus so that I could see him and it was Jesus. I remember saying during sometime in this dream 'finally I am out of here' as though I was talking to someone. Then I really thought it was happening and awoke thinking He was here in the rapture. And that's the end of this dream. I believe I have already received interpretation to this dream. God kept showing me that these people blowing these shofars are those who are sounding the alarm about the wake-up call such as like the Oral Roberts' vision. And whoever is sounding the alarm is actually blowing a shofar in the spirit to get ready for what is about to come on this earth."

This fellow's claimed revelation is that the trumpets presently sounding in heaven are those of us presently sounding the alarm on the earth. Makes sense to me. And according to Marissa, "Each day it is a little louder than before." We are getting closer. The trumpets are getting louder. We are experiencing a crescendo of warnings.

Smith's Bible Dictionary describes the shofar (or trumpet, or cornet) as being used by the ancient Hebrews as a signal. Many of us, including Oral Roberts, are sounding the signal that Jesus is coming soon and the end of the age is upon us.

God says, "If the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand" (Ezekiel 33:6).

Let us continue to blow the trumpet with boldness and without apology. This e-mail is itself another trumpet sound. Jim

Incoming email, Re: Regarding the debate on the Wise and Foolish, Laodiceans

I believe that the Laodiceans/Foolish are the Apostate church. Those who fall away from the truth and except teaching of seducing spirits and or also, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses and so forth.

My reply

The Laodiceans are lukewarm Christians. The message is written to "the church of the Laodiceans. In Rev. 3:16, Jesus said, "because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." They have to be in the Body of Christ before they can be spued (emesai, vomited) out. The Laodiceans are Christians, or they would not be in the Body of Christ in the first place.

Jehovah's Witnesses think that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. There is no verse in Scripture saying that if one believes in Michael the Archangel they will be saved. I doubt if they are classed as lukewarm Laodiceans.

Re: Mormons. I read that "they teach that Lucifer is a spirit brother of Jesus"

I'm sorry, but that doesn't jell right with me. Jesus (YAHshua) is the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts. He is LORD of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, AND HIS REDEEMER the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts; I am the first (Yahweh the King of Israel), and I am the last (Yahweh of hosts); and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD."

The Redeemer is Yahweh in the body of Jesus. The Redeemer is the Creator himself, God. John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." This means that He created Lucifer.

Heb. 1:1-8 says, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (en, in) his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: BEING MADE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE ANGELS, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever." Agape

Her reply, Re: Regarding the debate on the Wise and Foolish, Laodiceans

. Marilyn, I thought to be Luke warm meant that you took parts of the Gospel and ignored the rest or someone who was going to church and going thru all the motions of being a Christian but not having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, not reading his word and spending time in prayer and service and so forth, also not repenting of your sins and coming under the Blood of Jesus atonement.

So if this doesn't describe a Luke warm Christian, then what is a Luke warm Christian?

Right now the Jehovah witnesses and the Mormons are on the guise of calling themselves Christians and saying they believe in Jesus Christ so to fool many. Don't they fall into this category also? They are deceived I know, sad for many who fall into there false Doctrine.

Don't misunderstand me I believe in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one. I believe God came in the flesh, (Jesus), died on the cross, shed his blood to save me and he rose from the dead and sits on the right hand of God and will come back soon for me and I will be caught up to heaven and live with Jesus forever as his bride. I have confessed my sins and do confess I believe IM washed in his Blood and filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus did all this so I can come boldly to the throne of God, I can Praise and visit with my father through Jesus. I do not defend these cults but I thought they were among the Laodicians. Thanks for your input.

My reply

> > what is a Luke warm Christian?

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "not repenting of your sins."

To me, it is a carnal believer that is living as if he/she was not a Christian. In I Cor. 3:1, Paul said, "And I, brethren (believers), could not speak unto you (believers) as unto SPIRITUAL, but as unto CARNAL, even as unto BABES IN CHRIST."

The foolish Laodicean virgins are not zealous. Jesus told them to repent. A Christian needs to repent and confess their known sins so God can cleanse them of all unrighteousness. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

In Rev. 3:17-19, Jesus said, "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold (symbol of deity, i.e., the same oil of the Holy Spirit that the foolish virgins need more of) tried in the fire (the Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the asteroids hit Earth at noon), that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and REPENT."

Notice that the Tribulation saints "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). Confessing their sins has that result.

> > I do not defend these cults but I thought they were among the Laodicians

The Lord is the judge, not me. I John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." I never thought to ask them that question directly, wish I had. Our discussion was about who Jesus really is, and I couldn't convince them "that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Cor. 5:19). Instead of listening and responding to questions, they change the subject and parrot what they have been taught to say. I typed out Scripture verses for them, but they won't read them. They have ears that can't hear and eyes that can't see. They come to tell, not to listen, to teach, not to be taught.

As far as I know, these cults are not classed as Laodicians. Many of the people in these cults are zealous. Both go around door to door trying to convert people to their brand of religion. Many Mormons try to live right, by their standards. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Bible Codes Plus

I believe the Bible Code is true. You may not have kept up with this work, but the mathematical evidence now has a solid foundation. You can find detractors to anything, you web site included, but those detractors don't know the extent of your many years of study. I have kept up with the work of the Israeli Rabbi's as regards the Bible Code, and their work, I believe, is solid.

There is now "Bible Codes Plus", which is a computer program developed in Israel, that translates English words into Hebrew and searches the Torah for these words, then translates it back into English for the researcher. I have been waiting for such a program so I can research this myself; I have ordered the program.

Sir Isaac Newton searched for a Bible code in his day, so this was not a new concept. I'm thinking the Torah, which was not to be altered one jot or tittle, and was posted on the door frame of every house, may be the "book of life" spoken about in Revelation and everyone "found written in the book" in Daniel.

Revelation 3:
"5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Revelation 13:
"8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Revelation 17:
"8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Revelation 20:
"12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:
"10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Revelation 22:
"19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

It may be the book spoken of in Daniel 12:
"1: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3: And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Book sealed until computers could search.) Love

My reply

It sounds interesting. The thing that I don't go by are dates people come up with. If dates on the matrix meant anything, the Rapture would have happened on Pentecost, May 31, 1998. There are just too many letters, and therefore numbers.

There is no doubt that knowledge has increased greatly in our time. I saw that in just my dad's lifetime. Both raised on farms, my mom and dad took a horse and buggy to school over dirt roads. My dad built radios when they first came out. When working his way through college, he worked in a garage and built his first car out of two wrecked early Model A Fords. Later, when he was a teacher, he fixed black and white TVs, and then color TVs, for retail stores as a hobby. During W W II, he became the Safety Engineer for an ordinance plant making an explosive that England and Canada had failed to make. Their plants blew up. His company held the patents on things he designed to make the work safer. His plant didn't blow. He even understood how to make an atomic bomb. To me, all that reflected a dramatic increase in knowledge just in his lifetime.

Now, we have computers that have increased knowledge by leaps and bounds in my lifetime. Surely, we are living in the end times for that reason alone, but Daniel 12:4 says, "even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Cars, trucks and airplanes did wonders for our running to and fro, didn't they? Now, there are space vehicles and space telescopes too. It is so amazing, now the Cassini mission is orbiting Saturn. Not so long ago, only science fiction depicted such things.

Have fun with your new program, and please share your findings with me. Love

   Pro and Con 1153   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110

© 1996-2004, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-8-04