Pro and Con 1171

Posted 12-19-04

The Shroud Of Turin's Second Image

New Evidence Reopens Debate About Controversial Relic
By Gordon Govier, 12-16-4
http://www.rense.com/general60/turin.htm

...Now a growing body of evidence is calling for reassessment of the shroud, which is kept in Turin, Italy.

The latest item comes from the London-based Journal of Optics, published by the Institute of Physics. Two scientists from the University of Padua, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, report in the journal's April edition the discovery of a heretofore-undetected reverse image on the shroud. They say the smaller, fainter image on the back of the cloth depicts just the face and hands. And it's a superficial image, adhering only to the outermost fibers, just like the image on the front. "It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," Fanti writes....

Two Israeli archaeologists announced in 1997 that they believed the shroud could not be 2,000 years old because a garment could not last intact for 20 centuries (ct, Oct. 27, 1997, p. 100). About three years later, however, archaeologist Shimon Gibson discovered shroud-wrapped remains in a tomb in Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley. Although this shroud was in tatters, it was submitted to one of the same laboratories that handled the Turin shroud. Scientists dated Gibson's shroud to the first half of the first century, making the tomb occupant a contemporary of Jesus.

Gibson's discovery was largely unheralded. But late last year Gibson released the results of the tests, which showed the tomb occupant had died of Hansen's disease. The shroud had covered the oldest confirmed remains of a leprosy victim.

Like Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of the Christ, the shroud opens a window into the hearts of those who view it. "There is only one person it could've wrapped, even though science could never prove who it wrapped," Schwortz says. "The biggest irony of my life is that I spend most of my time trying to convince Christians that the shroud is authentic. God does have a great sense of humor."...

Mars rovers see water-linked mineral, frost and clouds

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=58769

AP - PASADENA, CA - 12-14-04 - The Mars rover Spirit found a mineral linked to water during its exploration of the Red Planet, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory said Monday.

Scientists identified the mineral goethite in bedrock studied in the Columbia Hills.

Spirit and its twin, Opportunity, were sent to Mars to look for geologic evidence of a watery past. Both rovers, especially Opportunity, have found such evidence in their nearly year-long treks over the martian surface, but the goethite find is particularly important, a mission scientist said in a JPL statement.

``Goethite, like the jarosite that Opportunity found on the other side of Mars, is strong evidence for water activity,'' said Goestar Klingelhoefer of the University of Mainz, Germany, lead scientist for the spectrometers on each rover. The instruments are designed to analyze iron minerals.

Goethite forms only in the presence of water, although it may be in liquid, ice or gaseous form....

Incoming email, Re: Wise virgins

1 Tevet 5765
Shalom, Marilyn. As the clock counts down to 'midnight', I am moved to write to you of two more things. One personal experience, and another general. First the general.

I am reminded of the 'testing of heart' of Joseph (who is a shadow for Messiah) and he in turn testing the hearts of his brothers. We are always 'tested'. Now it occurred to me, how would one discern between the wise and foolish virgins? Test their hearts!

Had the bridegroom come 'early' both groups would have been ready. It is only by waiting a little while, by testing the steadfastness by the amount of preparation, are the groups divided.

The wedding of a treasured member of our congregation happened recently. We were all gathered at the appointed hour. We waited. And waited. I was asked by the bride in advance to take a video of the ceremony. A mutual friend and reliable source 'tipped me off' while we were waiting that she would come through a certain door momentarily. I readjusted the camera and waited some more. And waited!

Maybe a full hour later, she appeared (and not at the door I was told!) Oh, my camera batteries did not go dead, I found an outlet, a continual 'source of oil' you might say!

Actually (this is interesting) I bought an extra battery the night before. One I did need later at the reception. Hmm.

It made me think. If you were getting ready for Yeshua to come for you, wouldn't you 'spend all' your money on oil? It seems this reinforces the foolish virgins being 'lukewarm'. The Groom is coming, what are they thinking? Evidently, they still have money to buy more oil!

The wise virgins are totally committed to the Groom. The foolish ones are hedging. The Groom does not want a bride who doubts or is only partially in love with Him. No wonder He says He does not know them!

When I first visited your web site, I was skeptical and asked G-d 'what about this stuff?' YHWH can have quite a sense of humour. That afternoon I was on my way to do some local errands. A car moved into the lane in front of mine. License plate MAGEE!!!

The car made a left, and must have gone around a looping shortcut, only to once again appear right IN FRONT of my car about half a mile later.

If that wasn't enough, a SECOND car, also appeared in front of mine, just before I reached my destination. This one had a plate that read MAGGIE. Oy vay!

I went back to your site and 'dug in'.

One more thing. I want to be a wise virgin, not because I am 'taken first' or spared the tribulation (though I am not in love with the prospect of persecution and martyrdom!) I want to be a wise virgin because I want to Love my Groom with something approaching the same abandon that He loves me. Abandoning all things for Him!

He gave His Life for ME! He suffered greatly, physical and emotional pain, spiritual separation from His Father. For ME! He taught us the meaning of True Love. A Love we can return only by our devotion to Him.

Like you and many others, I 'hear' the Groom's procession approaching. Will He arrive 'on time' at the discerned appointed hour? Or must we wait a little while more?

Who is like our G-d, The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? And Who has a Son who is like His Father, that is, if we know Him, we also know His Father? Who is like the Ruach HaKodesh?

As His disciples we echo the words 'where else shall we go?' Let us pray then, to spend every last coin on 'oil', for what is more precious than His Spirit?

Baruch Hashem! Let us PRAISE HIS NAME forever!!!
Shalom and much Agape

My reply

Wow! That's amazing. Thanks for sharing it with me. Shalom and agape

Incoming email, Re: Days Leading Up To The Crucifixion of Jesus

I have a question you may have an answer to about the days leading up to the crucifixion of Jesus.

I agree with the information you have posted previously about the timing of these events, and I have notes in my Bible about which events happened on which day. I have been rereading these verses this week and I noticed a note I had put by Mark 14:12. It says:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"

Jesus gives them instructions and they go and prepare the upper room and eat the passover together that night. Later that night Jesus prays in the Garden of Gethsemane and Judas betrays him. The soldiers take him away to the high priest and the events continue to unfold until Jesus is crucified the next day.

If I have understood what you have said before this all would have been on a Wednesday evening (last supper in the upper room) and Thursday (crucifixion).

My questions are:

1.) How can Jesus and the disciples have had the last supper on Wednesday - "...the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover..." and also have the crucifixion on the day when they killed the passover (I thought I understood that Jesus died at about the same time as the lambs were being killed for the passover and that Thursday was the preparation day before a Friday Passover).

2.) If I have misunderstood, and the last supper was not on the day when they killed the passover, was Jesus celebrating the passover a day early with his disciples since he knew he would be killed the next day? Thanks

PS: I just sent you an email with two questions. I think I may have found the answer to the first one. Both Wednesday and Thursday were the preparation because it started at 6:00 pm on Wednesday evening and went to 6:00 pm on Thursday evening. So, Jesus and the disciples had the last supper in the upper room on the preparation day (Wednesday evening) and Jesus was crucified on the preparation day (Thursday afternoon)!!

If you have time, could still reply to question 2?

I love studying the Bible. I has so many great things in it that the hardest thing to do is to stay focused on one thing. I agree with you that we are probably just scratching the surface.

Do you think that when we get to heaven, we will automatically know the answers to the many things we now have to work so hard to understand or will we still be able to study and find the answers out the hard way (which can be very satisfying also)? Thanks

My reply

When people think in terms of our days, they can get so mixed up that they lose one whole day in their thinking. It is easier to sort out if we think in terms of Hebrew days that started at 6 PM on the previous day. At every 6 PM, a new 24-hour day began.

Lev. 23:32 can keep us thinking right. It says, "It (the Day of Atonement, Tishri 10) shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: In the ninth day of the month at even (6 PM), from even (on the 9th) unto even (on the 10th), shall ye celebrate your sabbath." Also, the Jews spoke of 12 hours of night, then 12 hours of day.

We can be sure that Passover was Nisan 14, not Nisan 15, as some say. Lev. 23:5 says, In the fourteenth day of the first month at even (the beginning of the 24-hour day of the 14th) is the LORD'S passover."

NISAN 13, THURSDAY, PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER (John 19:14)

6 PM, The Last Supper, Jesus' arrest afterward

Midnight, Jesus' trial was going on

6 AM, "When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death" (Mt. 27:1)

9 AM, Jesus was crucified

Noon, "from the sixth hour (of the 12-hour day) there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour" (Mt. 27:45)

3 PM, 9th hour of the day, Jesus died when the priests started to kill the lambs

NISAN 14, FRIDAY, PASSOVER

6 PM, Passover began, lambs had to be roasted and eaten before midnight

Midnight, 6 hours later

6 AM, morning

Noon

6 PM, Saturday, beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread

> > "the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover"

Mark 14:12 says that it was "the first (prote, before, prior) day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover" (Nisan 13). They were not to eat leavened bread on Passover or on the 7 days of unleavened Bread that started Nisan 15. Therefore, it was the custom to conduct the "Bediqath Hametz," the search for leaven, on the afternoon of Nisan 12. They threw out the leaven on the 12th, so the 13th, when they were preparing food for the 14th, was also a day of unleavened bread.

> > I love studying the Bible.

So do I. It got hold of me, and I can't let go of it.

> > Do you think that when we get to heaven, we will automatically know the answers

Probably not automatically, but I hope we will be taught what it all means soon afterward. We will have 7 years to explore Heaven and learn what we need to know to do the Lord's bidding when we return to Earth with him at the Second Advent. Bob Thieme thinks we will each bump one demon at Armageddon. If he is right, the number of the saved would probably equal the one third of the angels that were lost. We might replace them in the government of God. There will be work to do. We won't spend eternity doing nothing but strumming harps. Agape

Incoming email, Re: salvation

Your comments on universal salvation make since to me but I have another question. Are you saying belief in Christ has to be accompanied with confession? If we never confess our sins do we retain them? Will the Bride of Christ have unconfessed sin at their rapture? I know of people who believe in Christ and say they are saved but have never confessed their sin. My heart is very troubled to see the church believing in Jesus Christ as the only requirement for salvation and entrance into heaven. I believe we receive the gift of salvation because we believe in what Christ has offered for us, his life. His way is the only way to receive forgiveness of sin and eternal life. I believe we were made Holy for God by Jesus' sacrifice so our sins would now be covered up allowing God to accept us into his presence. I can not come to terms in my personal life with believing in his name only and then never asking for forgiveness for my sin. If only believing in his name was the requirement for eternal life, Jesus did not have to die. His miracles and word would have been enough. I believe Jesus has promised us much more and that is to be in his very presence.

My reply

As for being saved in the first place, we have Rom. 10:9-13. It says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (i.e., Gentiles): for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

At the moment of salvation, all our "old sins" (II Peter 1:9) are wiped off the slate. We get a fresh start. However, because we still have an old sin nature, we will sin after we are saved. Those sins need to be confessed.

Notice the "IF"s in I John 1:4-10. It says, "these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness (i.e., no sin) at all. IF we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (sin), we lie, and do not the truth: But IF we walk in the light (i.e., not sinning), as he is in the light, WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP ONE WITH ANOTHER, AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN. IF we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. IF we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Peter had to learn that lesson. John 13:5-10 says, "After that he (Jesus) poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, IF I WASH THEE NOT, THOU HAST NO PART WITH ME. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed (i.e., a believer) needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit".

In II Peter 1:4-11, Peter showed that he had learned that lesson well. He said, "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE (i.e., the Holy Spirit, the oil the foolish virgins need), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH VIRTUE; and to virtue KNOWLEDGE; And to knowledge TEMPERANCE; and to temperance PATIENCE; and to patience GODLINESS; And to godliness BROTHERLY KINDNESS; and to brotherly kindness CHARITY (agape love). For IF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the lukewarm Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and HATH FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS (at the moment of salvation). Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: For so an entrance (at the Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

At the time of the Rapture, when the 10 kings "have received no kingdom as yet", they that are with him (the raptured are with the Lamb, Christ) ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL" (Rev. 17:12,14).

Luke 12:46 shows us what will take place at the Pre-Trib Rapture. It says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish Laodicean virgin) will come (Christ will come at the Rapture) in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware (i.e., he wasn't watching), and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (i.e., the shortened Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mt. 22:10-14 tells of this. It says, "So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both BAD and GOOD: and the wedding (i.e., the Marriage of the Lamb) was furnished with guests. And when the king (i.e., Christ) came in to see the guests, he saw there A MAN WHICH HAD NOT ON A WEDDING GARMENT (i.e., white robe of righteousness): And he saith unto him, Friend (i.e., the foolish Laodicean virgin), how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless (he thought he had it made). Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness (i.e., outside the door of Rev. 3:8; 4:1), THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN."

We need to be "CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL" (Rev. 17:14). We need white robes of righteousness.

After the second Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Tribulation saints will "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14).

The bride wears white. Rev. 19:7,8 says, "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and HIS WIFE HATH MADE HERSELF READY. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS (lit., righteousnesses) OF SAINTS." Righteousnesses includes the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and the righteous acts of the saints after they accept Christ. As far as I can tell, confessing our sins committed since we accepted Christ should be at the top of our list of Things To Do.

I Cor. 13:1-3 is the brutal truth. It says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (agape, God's kind of love), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (agape), I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (agape), it profiteth me nothing."

I John 4:8,16 says, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love....And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."

We have plenty of agape love in us when we are filled with the Holy Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his."

> > Will the Bride of Christ have unconfessed sin at their rapture?

Only Jesus knows how much oil the wise virgins need. We can't go wrong if we are filled with the Holy Spirit. That way, we can be certain that we will reap a full reward. "IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." Agape

Incoming email, Re: Lion of Judah?

The Lord provides. He has provided you and Ed with each other. You both deserve so much credit.You are overcomers in every sense of the word in spite of what satan tries to put upon you....

In scripture , the Lion of Judah is the only one worthy to open the Scroll of the Seven Seals. of judgement. Revelation Chap. 5 & 6 , The time of the fulfillment of the Gentiles is at hand, the Lord is picking up where He left off with His people, Our rapture is close at hand.

It seems the Western Wall is as a giant blllboard that will show His people their recognizable Lion of Judah the God that they know on one side and the Face of their Messiah, unrecognizable... at the moment,... on the other. It is amazng to me how the Face of the Lord and His bride, over time has become so defined!! I too, remember when we both were having such a hard time because of the shadows and the time of day trying to see where the image of His Face was. We sure did" Seek His Face " !!!

In my spirit I feel we will be together in the very near future. Once again, it is a pleasure to hear from you Marilyn dear heart. . I enjoy your Pros and Cons and watch for each new one. So informative....I love them. Waiting now to see you both soon. With much Agape Love to you both.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. May the Lord keep us both well until the Rapture. I keep trying to get a good view of the wall, to no avail. Agape

Note: I finally saw the lion after she told me to go up from the left black dot at the bottom of the wall. That's his mane. To the right a bit is what looks like a white eyebrow. The eye on my left is below that. Only then could I pick out the rest of the face. It isn't as easy to see as the man's face. If I remember right, the picture of the wailing wall is at aish.com/wallcam

Incoming email, Re: 4,000 years later, Babylon still magical

BY TODD PITOCK, March 28, 2004

...So there I was, ready at last to enter the seat of Mesopotamia, to see the Lion of Babylon, the legendary sites of the Hanging Gardens and the Tower of Babel, and the courtyards where the prophet Daniel interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's tormenting dreams, endured a night in a lion's den and became the governor -- an odd political success story if ever there was one. There were loose digs, gathered artifacts, a museum.

STEP INTO HISTORY

Past the Poles, the base spread in all directions. On a hill in the distance stands one of Saddam's many gauche palaces, which like most of the others, is now used by Coalition forces. Below the palace are the ruins, which you enter through a courtyard where a troupe of guides waits for visitors. Generally, it's not the best of times for Iraqi tourism, but with all the multinational soldiers, the guides have business. Mine was Hadi, a bespectacled archaeologist whose English was almost as incomprehensible as the ancient clay tablets with wedge-shaped writing scattered all over the site.

''The Gate of Ishtar!'' he announced. The gate is a 1980s replica -- the real one is in Berlin -- but, then, much of the place looks pretty Disney, only with real mice. Tall, yellow brick walls frame each of the rebuilt sections, and arched doorways opened onto freshly paved alleys and empty, echoing courtyards.

It was Saddam's idea to rebuild the ruins; deaf to the howls of UNESCO and archaeologists, in 1987 he committed $100 million to the project. The ancient bricks bore the inscription, ``I am Nebuchadnezzar II, the son of Nabopolassar. The god Marduk [Babylon's most revered god] ordered me to build this palace for his excellency.''

The new bricks say, ''Rebuilt in the age of Saddam Hussein, the leader of Iraq, the protector of civilizations, the descendant of Nebuchadnezzar.'' Saddam's effort to link himself with the ancient king was more propagandistic than delusional: The latter ruled a 1,000-mile empire that stretched all the way to the Mediterranean. And he had, of course, liberated Jerusalem from the Jews -- a message that his Arab audience, which tends to have a fresh memory of ancient history, would easily understand.

SO MUCH LOST

Even apart from Saddam's intrusion, however, anyone who arrives at the ruins now is several millenniums too late. The details of life in Babylon, preserved in the records of the wedge-shaped symbols of the area's ubiquitous clay tablets, portray a fantastically advanced society with as many as a million Aramaic-speaking citizens in a thriving metropolis of unfettered capitalism. There, birth conferred status, and life, at least on the high end, was quite splendid.

There were zoos and pleasure gardens, including the legendary Hanging Gardens, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world that, according to one legend, Nebuchadnezzar had built for his wife, who missed the greenery and mountains of her homeland.

According to the Greeks, the Gardens were irrigated by water lifted up from the Euphrates. Such technological prowess would not have been unusual, and some discoveries and inventions are still with us, including longitude and latitude, the 60-second minute and the 60-minute hour. The Babylonians were doing calculus in 1800 BCE; it took Europe another 35 centuries to catch on during the Renaissance.

They constructed ziggurats, immense towers as platforms for their temples. The greatest of these ziggurats was a 300-foot structure called Etemenanki, ''the foundation of heaven and earth.'' Although there's little archaeological evidence -- the place marked as site itself is a just a pit in the ground -- some researchers suppose that this was the structure that the bedazzled and comparatively primitive Jews called the Tower of Babel.

''For the captives who were brought here from Jerusalem, it must have been like going from Des Moines to New York City,'' says Erle Leichty, curator emeritus of the Babylonian section of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology (see sidebar).

It was probably not coincidental that the Jews wrote the Babylonian Talmud here. Babylonian legal codes started in 2100 BCE.

LION OF BABYLON

Three centuries later, Babylon's sixth king, Hammurabi, updated the system with a catalog of 282 codes that were comparatively enlightened. Women could own property; slaves could buy their own freedom.

Hadi and I walked down the reconstructed Procession Walk, and then wandered through arches to the Lion of Babylon, a 2,600-year-old granite sculpture of a man pinned under a beast.

We shuffled over dust and stones into a slippery pit that were the ruins of Nebuchadnezzar's central palace. Hadi, who excavated this particular spot himself, noted that with a worker assigned to every meter the entire palace was built in just two weeks.

Hadi insisted that we run through the museum and got a key to open it up, but there was no electricity, the inner rooms didn't have windows, and in the darkness I could only guess at what artifacts he was trying to point out....

Incoming email, Re: who are you?

Sounds like you know the truth but you make no mention of the christadelphian. Maby your like me just a brother in Christ in hope of the return of Christ. Please contact me.

My reply

> > Re: who are you?

I am Marilyn Agee, a 76-year old woman who has studied the Bible as hard as she could go ever since about 1960.

I don't know anything about the "christadelphian". I mainly study the Bible. I think the Philadelphian believers in Rev. 3:7-13 will be overcomers caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

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