Pro and Con 1177

Posted 1-25-05

Memory 4 ur HP because of five doves post

I saw your post on and decided to take matters into my own hands. I just ordered you a 128mb DIMM that should work in your HP Pavilion. It's from and is coming FedEx Next day air to you. It should be there by tomorrow. Please let me know if there are any problems, but hopefully there won't be any.

P.S. I still gently disagree with your methodology on the counting of the Omar, but just to be safe I think I'll mark both days, from the two different methods of counting, and keep a watch during both of them....couldn't hurt?

My Reply

Thank you. Thank you. I was watching the clock as the email came in, thinking that as soon as a small computer store opened, I'd better see if I could get help in getting the right memory module. It may be that the real reason that I can't post to the site now is "Not enough memory to complete the operation," as the Dialog Box said when I tried again last night.

As for the date of Pentecost, I'll be watching both days too, but especially the midnight of June 13/14. The Hebrew date of Sivan 7 starts at 6 PM on June 13.

I just read that "Syria tells Israel: 'We want peace'" Overture desperate attempt to deflate U.S. pressure on Damascus By Aaron Klein, 1-24-05
I wonder if those in power in Syria ever heard about Isa. 17:1. It says, "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." That will happen on the Day of God's Wrath, "but the harvest (the Pre-Wrath Rapture shall be a multitude that can't be counted, Rev. 7:9,14) in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow" (Isa. 17:11). I think that the Pre-Wrath Rapture will be in the night or morning before the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5).

That will be the day the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky. Isa. 17:7 says, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel." Agape

Incoming email, Re: Israel's Rapture

(A) From: lb
To: John Tng at the Five Doves site
Thank you John for five doves!!
Here's more evidence for 2008, in His service, lb

As current events and turmoil in the Middle East dictate, the time of the prophetic fulfillments of Bible prophecy are upon us.

For about 15 months now I have been looking at Rosh Hashanah 2008 as the “end of age”, through secular, political, historical and the prophetic Scriptures.

I believe there is also proof from the Torah that the age of those who came out of the wilderness and entered the Promised Land (59 or less) will equate with the age of the land of Israel as a nation on September 29, 2008, as they enter the “greater” Promised Land the very next day which is the Millennial Kingdom of Messiah....

Numbers 14:26 The LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27 "How long {shall I bear} with this evil congregation who are grumbling against Me? I have heard the complaints of the sons of Israel, which they are making against Me.

28 "Say to them, As I live,' says the LORD, 'just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will surely do to you; 29 your corpses will fall in this wilderness, even all your numbered men, according to your complete number from twenty years old and upward who have grumbled against Me.

(Anyone 20 years old and older who entered the wilderness would become a corpse in the wilderness)

30 Surely you shall not come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

(Every man who entered the Promised Land, would be no more than 59 years old, other than Caleb and Joshua)

31 Your children, however, whom you said would become a prey--I will bring them in, and they will know the land, which you have rejected.

(Those children who were 19 years and younger, will enter the “promised land”)

32 'But as for you, your corpses will fall in this wilderness. 33 Your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer {for} your unfaithfulness, until your corpses lie in the wilderness.

(Reaffirming those 20 years or older would shepherd the 19 year old and younger for forty years but still suffer and die, thus confirming, 19+40=59years)

34 According to the number of days, which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, {even} forty years, and you will know My opposition.

35 I, the LORD, have spoken, surely this I will do to this entire evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be destroyed, and there they will die. "

What makes the 59 full years, a viable biblical generation candidate, is the fact, the nation of Israel was “born in a day” on Iyar 5, 5708, or May 14, 1948.

Tishri 1 5709 fell on October 4, 1948 by adding 59 full years to it, brings us to Elul 29 5768, and just as Caleb and Joshua were the only men 60 years or older to enter the promised land.

As a parallel could the next day, Rosh Hashanah, Tishri 1, 5769, which has now become 60 years later, September 30, 2008, be the day of the “great entering” into the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ at His second coming?

With the fulfillment of the much anticipated prophecy of Zechariah 12:9-10!

Many scholars have taught that the “Parable of the fig tree” in Matthew 24:32-34 refers to Israel becoming a nation on May 14, 1948. However the number of years in a generation (pre-flood and after Christ) has always had varying opinions as to the number of years.

This is an interesting parallel. If we can equate the age (59 or less) of those going into the Land with the age of the Land as a nation, then a 59-year generation could very well be true.

REPENT the Kingdom of God is at hand, make your election SURE Giving Him the glory, A Ezekiel 33:6 watcher one

(B) From: Dave Camp
To: All
If you haven't seen Watcher's post today
- please review it now. (It's above)

1) Quick recap: Assumption here is:
Since the oldest anyone who entered into the Promised Land was 59 years (Joshua and Caleb excepted), then Israel will ALSO be "at most" 59 years old when entering into HIS "Promised Land."

2) Watcher argues for Rosh HaShanah dates - but what happens if we simply use Israel's ACTUAL DOB?

Now Watcher's DOB is a bit off, so here's a quick summary:

a) Israel DECLARED Statehood shortly after 4pm on Friday, 15 May 1948, which was 5 Iyyar. Thus this is the HEBREW date given for their Independence.
b) HOWEVER, Statehood was not realized until that midnight (when the British Mandate expired), Fri/Sat, 15/16 May, which was 6 Iyyar. This is why 16 May is usually given as the GENTILE date for Independence.
Thus, in terms of Israel being "the land born in a day" (Isa. 66), we have the birth ANNOUNCEMENT made on 5 Iyyar, but the actual BIRTH didn't occur until midnight on 6 Iyyar. (And in case you didn't know, PROPHETICALLY, this is a fulfillment of God turning a CURSE (the death at midnight of Egypt's Firstborn, taking the place of Israel's Firstborn) into a BLESSING (the BIRTH at midnight of GOD'S Firstborn!!)
(In other words, Israel's Momma "went into labor" shortly after 4pm, but the baby wasn't "delivered" until midnight!)

3) So let's use BOTH Hebrew and Gentile dates and see what happens:


Midnight 15/16 May 1948/5708 + 59 years = Tue/Wed 15/16 May 2007 = 28 Iyyar 5767 Which is Israeli Independence Day!

As I had previously noted, Jesus began His Ascension at twilight on Thursday (being exactly 40 days from His Resurrection at twilight on Saturday [the beginning of the Jewish day of Firstfruits]). However, the date that Thursday was 27 Iyyar - which meant that Jesus began His Ascension up to the HEAVENLY Mount Zion at the beginning of 28 Iyyar - the EXACT same date that Israeli soldiers began their ascent up the EARTHLY Mount Zion when the Temple Mount was captured in 1967!

So will 28 Iyyar in 2007 AGAIN be Israel's "Ascension Day" ?!?

Two VERY interesting additional tidbits:

59 is the gematria of mezuzzah, meaning "doorpost" - and by extension, a door/doorway. 15 May 2007 is EXACTLY 120 weeks from Tu b'Shevat this coming Tuesday. Hmm ... Dave

(C) From: David Parker
To: Dave Camp
Re: Israel's "Rapture" ?!?

Thanks, Dave. This is very interesting. The analogy seems to fit since God said He called His firstborn out of Egypt. So the modern day Israel being 'BORN in a day' in 1948 seems to confirm that BOTH NATIONS the Old and the New were BORN.

I wonder if the total time of 40 years in wilderness has any relevance in this.. it seems like that would be the correct time for the wilderness sojourn and not 59 years which seems to have to do with the upper age of the actual people. dp

(D) From: David Parker
Subject: Re: Israel's "Rapture" ?!?ADDENDUM

Can you guys/gals help me with my thinking. Israel was 'born' in May of 1948. 19 years later would be 1967.......the year they were 19 years old. Would this correspond to those being under age 20, ie 19 years old being the ones who would inherit the promised land? '67 was the year they 'sprouted' and 'grew up' to speak.

67 was also the year they had THE OPPORTUNITY to TAKE THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND HOLD IT......BUT THEY REFUSED. Have you heard some of the stories about God speaking supernaturally to some of the soldiers who actually took the Temple Mount?

But, Moshe Dayan gave the control back........thinking "we are too vulnerable to take this mount and hold it" and thus it was given back.......they in effect refused to ENTER IN.

FROM that point in June of 1967 they have to wonder the 40 years. That brings us to 2007....for the time they would take POSSESSION of the Temple Mount. It is hard to believe we are already in 2005.

Let me know if the above seems accurate or not?

My Reply

< < < Dave Camp: Jesus began His Ascension at twilight on Thursday (being exactly 40 days from His Resurrection at twilight on Saturday [the beginning of the Jewish day of Firstfruits]). However, the date that Thursday was 27 Iyyar - which meant that Jesus began His Ascension up to the HEAVENLY Mount Zion at the beginning of 28 Iyyar - the EXACT same date that Israeli soldiers began their ascent up the EARTHLY Mount Zion when the Temple Mount was captured in 1967! > > > So will 28 Iyyar in 2007 AGAIN be Israel's "Ascension Day" ?

Iyar 28? I believe Jesus' ascension day was Iyar 26, the 40th day since his resurrection on Sunday, Nisan 16, and 10 days before Sivan 7, Pentecost. Nisan 16 was Sunday in 30 AD. Seven Sundays (49 days) later was Sunday, Sivan 6. Monday was Sivan 7, when "the day of Pentecost was fully come" (Mt. 28:1).

Israel took the temple mount on June 7, 1967 (Iyar 28, 5727).

> > David Parker: Have you heard some of the stories about God speaking supernaturally to some of the soldiers who actually took the Temple Mount?

I don't remember any. I'd appreciate knowing more about this.

> > FROM that point in June of 1967 they have to wonder the 40 years. That brings us to 2007....for the time they would take POSSESSION of the Temple Mount. It is hard to believe we are already in 2005.

The Hebrew year 5727 + 40 years is 5767. If you are figuring the end of the Tribulation, you would have to add 4 months and go to 5768. The reason? That year has to be a Hebrew Leap Year, because there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath on Tishri 1 and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1 (Eze. 39:12,13).

I think we have come too far without the Rapture taking place for Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) to be the end of the Tribulation. Therefore, I went to the next Hebrew Leap Year, 5771 (2010/2011).

There are two figures we can use as a generation, the 40 years before the Israelites went into their promised land, or 48.33 years derived from Mt. 1:17. Dividing the 2030 years from Abraham to Christ by 42 generations is 48 years. Adding that to 5727 is 5775 (not a Leap Year). The Leap Years are 5768 (2007/2008), 5771 (2010/11), and 5774 (2013/14).

> > Re: Israel's "Rapture"

By that, do you mean the Pre-Wrath Rapture, when the 144,000 Israelites are caught up to God at the "last trump"? (I Cor. 15:51,52). For that 2nd Rapture, we have a choice of Tishri 1, 5771 (Sept. 9, 2010), or Tishri 1, 5774 (Sept. 5, 2013).

Seven years before 5771 is 5764. We are in 5765 now, but the Great Tribulation is to be shortened. Seven years before 5774 is 5767 (2006/07). Either way, the Pre-Trib Rapture is near.

To me, 5765 has a better chance of being the year of the Pre-Trib Rapture than 5767. Why? Saturn is in Gemini now. If our Rapture was next Pentecost (Sivan 7; June 14, 2005), Saturn would still be in Gemini (the sign of the Zodiac assigned to the Hebrew month of Sivan). In Gemini, the Bride and Bridegroom are sitting together in heavenly places, on the ecliptic, the path Saturn travels.

Eph. 2:6 says, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

Saturn will leave Gemini in early July, I think on the 12th. Since the orbit of Saturn takes 29.5 years, it would not be in Gemini in 5774. I'm hoping for next Pentecost. Agape

Tests confirm Mars meteorite

My comment

I think they came from the core of Satan's planet Rahab that split up and formed our Asteroid Belt between Mars and Jupiter. To me, the metal had to be from the core of a planet, not from a bunch of planetesimals that failed to coalesce and form a planet.

New Chemical Testing Points to Ancient Origin for Burial Shroud of Jesus; Los Alamos Scientist Proves 1988 Carbon-14 Dating of the Shroud of Turin Used Invalid Rewoven Sample

1-19-05...As a result of his own research and chemical tests, Rogers concluded that the radiocarbon sample was cut from a medieval patch, and is totally different in composition from the main part of the Shroud of Turin.

Pope to Satan: You're finished!

Pontiff invokes the Apocalypse, discusses ultimate defeat of evil

...In comments before 7,000 people attending the General Papal Audience yesterday at the Vatican, Pope John Paul II commented on the Apocalypse, saying that the increase in violence and injustice in the world is the work of a furious Satan who doesn't have "much time left" and ultimately will be defeated....

"Satan, the original adversary, who accused our brothers in the heavenly court, has now been cast down from heaven and therefore no longer has great power. He knows he has not much time left because history is about to see a radical turning point in freedom from evil and therefore he is reacting full of great fury.

My comment

Satan being cast out of Heaven takes place Mid-Trib, not Pre-Trib (Rev. 12:6-8).

Statue reveals ancient astronomy

Hipparchus credited with first 'star catalog'

SAN DIEGO, California (Reuters) -- A Roman statue of Atlas -- the mythical titan who carried the heavens on his shoulders -- holds clues to the long-lost work of the ancient astronomer Hipparchus, an astronomical historian said Tuesday.

The statue in question is known as the Farnese Atlas, a 7-foot tall marble work which resides in the Farnese Collection in the National Archeological Museum in Naples, Italy.

What makes it important to scientists is not the titan's muscular form but the globe he supports: carved constellations adorn its surface in exactly the locations Hipparchus would have seen in his day, suggesting that the sculptor based the globe on the ancient astronomer's star catalog, which no modern eyes have seen...

My comment

I know God named the stars, and I wouldn't be surprised if Enoch actually wrote the first star catalog. He and Seth seem to be the ones that drew up the Zodiac by the inspiration of the Lord.

Incoming email, Re: Saturn - Titan

I've been reading your site, and Home of the Five Doves, since 1997, and I appreciate your good heart, vast bible knowledge, and willingness to share with others.

I've just noticed that the Huygens probe from ESA's Cassini mission landed on Titan today, January 14, 2005, and is sending back images and gathering information which will be received tonight (perhaps tomorrow our time). I find this very interesting and thought you might also.

My reply

Thanks. Jan. 14 is interesting, since June 14 is Sivan 7, Pentecost. Agape

...Remarkably, the views of Titan's surface suggest a similarity to eroded surfaces on Earth and Mars....

Titan probe yields fresh images

By Paul Rincon

Scientists...have released the first results from the Huygens probe's journey to Saturn's moon Titan, along with amazing new images....

Tangerine sky

The colour image shows the surface of Titan is bright orange with a tangerine sky, with "boulders" probably formed from ice....

Aerial photographs from the descent show drainage channels apparently flowing off land into what seems to be a dark ocean, possibly composed of some tarry substance....

My comments on some of the Karaite arguments on the countdown to Pentecost

From: "The Morrow After the Sabbath: The Beginning of the Counting of the Omer [9 Classical Karaite Arguments]", by Hacham Mordecai Alfandari

> > ...The Rabbanites argued that "the Sabbath" mentioned in the Scripture in this instance is the first Holy Day of Hag HaMatzot [on which work is forbidden] and therefore they begin the Counting of the Omer on the second Day of Hag HaMatzot.

I think that the 2nd day of Hag HaMatzot, Unleavened Bread (Nisan 16, Firstfruits) is the day FROM which to begin the 50-day count. Firstfruits is not day one; the following day, Nisan 17, is day one.

> > ...the Torah is referring to "the Sabbath of Genesis", that is, the Seventh Day of the week. As a result the day of the Omer Waving, as well as Shavuot, must always be on Sunday.

I believe that Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits are on Nisan 14, 15, and 16. The day of the week will rotate from year to year.

If Firstfruits and Pentecost were both on Sunday, the count FROM Firstfruits to Pentecost would only be 49 days. If a Sunday Nisan 17 was day one, Pentecost would have been on Monday. Not only will Firstfruits and Pentecost not always be on Sunday, Passover and Unleavened Bread will not be on a certain day of the week.

> > ...The name "Sabbath" is a special name which the Torah uses to describe the Seventh Day of the week and this name can not be transferred from one object to another, that is to say, it can not be used to refer to any other day.

Yes, it can. Passover was a High Sabbath. The Day of Atonement was a Sabbath. Both are certain dates, Nisan 14 and Tishri 10. Those dates will fall on different days from year to year, but they are still sabbaths of rest, holy convocations, as all the feasts are. In Lev. 23:2,3, the Lord said, "Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts." The Saturday Sabbath is also a "sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein".

These dates are all sabbaths, Nisan 14, Passover; Nisan 15, Unleavened Bread; Nisan 16, Firstfruits; Sivan 7, Pentecost; Tishri 1, Trumpets; Tishri 10, Day of Atonement; and Tishri 15, Tabernacles. They cannot all fall on Saturday in the same year.

De. 16:9 (KJV) says, "Seven WEEKS shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven WEEKS FROM (day one would be Nisan 17) such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn" (on Firstfruits, Nisan 16).

The same verse in the Stone Ed. Tanach says, "You shall count seven WEEKS for yourselves; FROM when the sickle is first put to the standing crop (on Nisan 16) shall you begin counting seven WEEKS." Day one would be Nisan 17.

It means WEEKS, not Saturdays.

> > The Scripture says "the Morrow after THE Sabbath" with the definite article, proving that the Scripture means the Sabbath of Genesis.

It can mean the day after the sabbath Day of Unleavened Bread too, and that does not have to fall on Saturday.

> > If Shavuot is supposed to fall on a fixed calendar date [as the Rabbanites maintain] like all the other Holidays, [the Torah] should have mentioned this date, as it indeed does for all the other holidays. However, if Shavuot is meant to always fall on a Sunday, as we maintain, the calendar date would change every year and this explains why the Torah did not mention a date for this holiday.

We can't tell God what he "should have mentioned." He does all the deciding of such matters. I think the reason that Shavuot (Pentecost) is obscure is because it is the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> > the Book of Joshua "And they ate of the produce of the Land on the morrow after the Passover [Sacrifice]" (Joshua 5,11). The Passover sacrifice is on the fourteenth of Nissan. Thus they ate after the Waving of the Omer, which was carried out on the First Day of Hag HaMatzot (the 15th of Nissan) and not on the following day, the 2nd day of Hag HaMatzot (which is when the Rabbis believe the Omer must be brought).

I side with the Rabbis here. The Passover is Nisan 14. Unleavened Bread is Nisan 15. Firstfruits (waving the Omer) is Nisan 16, the 2nd day of Unleavened Bread. We can't scrunch Firstfruits and the Feast of Unleavened Bread both into Nisan 15.

> > If we interpret "Sabbath" as a Yom Tov, that is, as a Holy Day [on which work is forbidden], how do we interpret the verse "Seven complete Sabbaths". If the meaning here is a week which contains in it a Sabbath, as the Rabbanites claim,1 we find that in one instance the meaning of "Sabbath" is Holiday and in another instance its meaning is a week which contains in it a Sabbath. This is untenable for the Torah mentioned "Sabbath" twice in the same breath and it can not have two different meanings unless the Scripture explicitly indicates it does.

God can do what he pleases, and the Stone Ed. Tanach says, "FROM when the sickle is first put to the standing crop (on Firstfruits, Nisan 16) shall you BEGIN (i.e., on Nisan 17) COUNTING SEVEN WEEKS". That is 49 days. The 50th day, Sivan 7, is Pentecost, which means "count fifty."

> > If we interpret the word "Sabbath" as a Holy Day [on which work is forbidden], it makes more sense to interpret it as the last Holy Day of Passover [=7th Day of Hag HaMatzot], the Seventh Day of Assembly, and not the morrow of the first Holy Day [=1st Day of Hag HaMatzot].

The 7th day of Unleavened Bread is not possible. The count is to begin the day after Firstfruits, Nisan 16, the second day of Unleavened Bread.

Incoming email, Re: Looking for a King

check this article out. Israel is setting themselves up by getting ready for a King. The comments are amusing to say the least, but again, how sad it is to be blind.

Your updatd Home page and recent P/C are excellent! Tuesday, it is!. Agape
Hear ye, hear ye: Sanhedrin seeks David's scion as king
By YAAKOV KATZ,1-12-05

Will Jews begin proclaiming "Long live the king" in the near future? According to a group of 71 Jewish scholars who met this week in the Old City of Jerusalem in the form of a modern-day Sanhedrin - a duplicate of the religious tribunal which convened during the time of the Second Temple - a coronation day is growing closer. As one member of the group put it, "We would have liked it to happen yesterday. But we are willing to wait until tomorrow." There hasn't been a genuine Sanhedrin in Israel for nearly 1,600 years...The group composed largely of Kahane sympathizers that gave itself the name Sanhedrin in October, however, met Sunday to discuss the creation of a Jewish monarchy in the State of Israel. For the past several years a group called the Monarchists has conducted extensive research into the lineage of several families in an effort to discover who has the closest bloodline to the biblical King David ? a requirement for any future Jewish king. Rabbi Yosef Dayan from Psagot, known for his recent threats to place a death curse on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, is said to be a leading candidate to become the "king of Israel."

"Dayan has the best lineage to King David," several members of the Sanhedrin told The Jerusalem Post. They say he has two documented ancient sources which draw a direct line between him and the males in his family to King David some 3,000 years ago.... "That makes Dayan the leading candidate to become king."...The only question now is how to establish the Jewish monarchy in spite of the presiding democratic government.... Some of the other ideas discussed at the Sanhedrin meeting included the construction of an altar on the Temple Mount to be used for the Passover Offering during the upcoming holiday. One of the ideas, members said, is to climb the Mount and build the altar within minutes and sacrifice the lamb before security forces can stop them... Participants also discussed Ben-Yosef's idea of reinstating the Sanhedrin's authority to announce Rosh Hodesh, the beginning of the new lunar month. "It is very important to reinstate the Sanhedrin's authority to announce the month, because it will force people to understand that God gave us the power to control the calendar and our own destiny," Ben-Yosef said.

Incoming email

I'm glad you like the update on the Home Page. I'm amazed that it took me so long to figure it out. Everything in its time, I guess.

Thanks so much for this article. What news! not only about a Davidic king (will he be the False Prophet?), but about an altar--and that by this next Passover. Wow! It sounds like all they need is a catalyst, and the Rapture just might be all they need to start putting their plans into action....Agape

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