Pro and Con 1178

Posted 1-27-05

Incoming email, Re: robertb124 from Dove's

Marilyn, thought this an interesting tie-in with your 6/13/05 date.
---
Robert Braatz (24 Jan 2005)
"Reply to CAPS 1-22-05 posting"

According to Deuteronomy 2:14, Israel wandered in the wilderness 38 years for refusing to enter the Promised Land. The forty years mentioned in Deut. 1:3 date from the time they left Egypt. Those who were 19 and under at the time the punishment was imposed were the ones who inherited the Promised Land 38 years later.

In John 5:5, another 38 year punishment is mentioned. This text seems to picture latter day Israel. The man healed had been ill for 38 years because of a sin or sins he had committed earlier in his life (John 5:14). After suffering with his infirmity for 38 years, the man was cleansed and his health was restored. Arthur Pink comments in his Gospel of John that "thirty-eight years was exactly the length of time that Israel spent in the wilderness after they came under law at Sinai. There it was, in the Wilderness of Sin, that old Israel manifested their 'impotency'-blind,halt, withered-under law." Pink also points out that the man was healed on a feast day and says "that the view of almost all the older writers is the correct one, and that it was the feast of Pentecost that is here in view."

It is interesting that after 19 years of reborn Israel's existence, on June 14, 1967, another feast of Pentecost was celebrated in Israel. An estimated 200,000 Israelis gathered at the Western Wall of the Temple Mount to celebrate their victory in the Six Day War. Part of their victory was the liberation of the Temple mount on June 8,1967. From that day in June when the Israelis conquered the Temple Mount, they allowed the Muslim Waqf to remain in autonomous control over the mosques on the Mount. Then in August of 1967, Moshe Dayan returned jurisdiction of the entire Temple Mount to the Islamic Waqf. Dayan indicated that if Israel kept control of the Temple Mount, it would raise the ire of the entire Moslem world and result in yet another war. Once again, as in the days of Joshua, Israel feared their enemies far more than they trusted their God.

Could it be that another punishment clock started ticking for Israel on June 14, 1967 (Pentecost). Like the one in the wilderness journey and the one for the diseased man in John 5:5, could it be that this punishment will also be for 38 years? If so, it would run its course on June 13, 2005. Pentecost starts this year at sunset on June 12 and ends at sunset on June 13. That would be 38 years to the day of the June 14,1967 Pentecost. If the Lord begins to cleanse, purify, and restore Israel on June 12/13, 2005, it would tell me that the Church is gone and that the 70th week of Daniel has begun.

Pentecost is a harvest feast. Two loaves of LEAVENED bread (leaven represents sin) are waived before the Lord (Leviticus 23:17). The loaves, I believe, represent two distinct categories of redeemed sinners: the resurrected dead in Christ and those who will be raptured while physically alive (1Corinthians 15:52). The previous feast on the calendar, the feast of Firstfruits, is also a harvest feast. That feast has an offering which does not contain any leaven and pictures the sinless resurrected Christ appearing before the father in heaven. Firstfruits and Pentecost are 50 days apart and are like two bookends enclosing the same theme-namely resurrection. The church was born on Pentecost, but that did not fulfill the feast of Pentecost. Again, like Firstfruits, Pentecost is about resurrection harvest.

Could it be that on Pentecost this year the 38 years of Israel's latest punishment will end and the feast picturing the resurrection and rapture of the Church will be fulfilled? It does seem ironic that both these events could happen on the same day. With the Church gone, Israel would once again be central in God's dealings with the peoples of the earth.

We do not have long to wait for the answer. Even so, come Lord Jesus!

My reply

Thanks. The correlation of beginning and ending dates for the full 57 years (19 + 38 = 57) is amazing.

> > Could it be that another punishment clock started ticking for Israel on June 14, 1967 (Pentecost). Like the one in the wilderness journey and the one for the diseased man in John 5:5, could it be that this punishment will also be for 38 years? If so, it would run its course on June 13, 2005. Pentecost starts this year at sunset on June 12 and ends at sunset on June 13. That would be 38 years to the day of the June 14,1967 Pentecost. If the Lord begins to cleanse, purify, and restore Israel on June 12/13, 2005, it would tell me that the Church is gone and that the 70th week of Daniel has begun.

Israel took the temple mount on Wednesday, June 7, 1967 (Iyar 28, 5727). One week later was Wednesday, June 14 (Sivan 6). That seems to have been the 49th day of counting the Omer. When Pentecost was fully come, it was the 50th day, June 15 (Sivan 7).

May 14, 1948 + 19 yrs. + 38 yrs. = May 14, 2005. June 14, 2005 (Sivan 7), is the 50th day of counting the Omer. It matches Acts 2:1-4, when "the day of Pentecost was fully come".

In 30 AD, on that 50th day of the countdown, the church was born into this world. It makes good sense that when the 50th day of the countdown comes in 2005, the church will be born into another world. Both births would be on Pentecost (Sivan 7). Agape

Incoming email, Re: 38 years from 1967, from the Five Doves site

F.M. Riley (25 Jan 2005)
The 40 and 38 years"

Dear John,
Due to serious illness on the part of both my wife and I over the past two months, I haven't been online for several weeks. I just tuned into today and caught some of the discussion. Some of it is so interesting I just have to comment....

A careful study of the deliverance of Israel from the land of Egypt and subsequent events will reveal the following scenario.

Israel left Egypt 2513 years after the creation of Adam. This can be verified by studying the chronology given in Genesis and following books.

A careful study of the Scriptures reveals that it took Israel two years to reach Mt. Sinai. Study it out for yourself.

At Mt. Sinai Israel rebelled against the will of God to go up and take the land. God punished them by leaving them to wander in the wilderness for another 38 years (a total of 40 years).

These are Scriptural facts that can easily be documented by anyone that will seriously study the Word.

Therefore at the end of the 38 years of punishment Israel crossed the Jordan under the leadership of Joshua and entered the promised land. They then engaged in a seven year war (clearly a type of the seven year Tribulation).

Now let's make a prophetic application.

One of the Doves writing today referred to the healing of the impotent man that had laid idly by the pool for thirty-eight years, John 5:1-15. Then they attempted to make some prophetic sense out of it. May I help?

This is 2005! Thirty-eight years ago (1967) Almighty God delivered the Temple Mount into the hands of the Jews during the Six Day War. Instead of immediately seizing the opportunity, rebuilding their Temple, and claiming their promised Kingdom, the Jews (through their blind leaders) rebelled against the will of God plainly stated in His prophetic Word, and literally gave the Temple Mount over into the hands of their enemies. God have mercy!

They have had to pay dearly for the past 38 years for that act of rebellion, just as their ancient forefathers had to pay for their rebellion.

But praise God! At the end of the 38 years ancient Israel crossed the Jordan and entered upon their Kingdom promises. They still had to fight a seven year war to subdue their enemies, but they were on their way. Folks, can't you see that this plainly points to Israel entering their Kingdom promises this year, 2005, where they will still have to fight a seven year war to subdue their enemies. This year is 38 years since Israel had and relinguished the Temple Mount, and the seven year Tribulation is at the door. It will begin this Spring.

Glory! But there is another point whether some like it or not. Since this year is the 38th year and the Tribulation is at the door.....so is the rapture of God's people. Glory! Look at all the signs of the Trib that are occurring right now. Read Luke 21:26-28 and believe it. Our Lord is coming to rescue His Bride (those saved during this present dispensation) this very year, Luke 21:36. When God's people saved during this present dispensation are removed, then the whole plan of God will revert back to Israel to bring it all to a swift seven year conclusion. Glory! Isn't the Word of the Lord sweet?

God bless you dear brother. Thanks for providing a way to get the truth out, even if some don't want it. Praise the Lord!

Pastor F. M. Riley, Last Call Gospel Ministry
3305-D Clark Lane PMB 147, Columbia, MO 65202
fmrglorybound@centurytel.net
or fmrglorybound@juno.com
---
Thanks, Pastor Riley. John

My comments

A type of the seven years of tribulation is in Judges 6:1. It says, "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian (meaning strife) seven years."

The new memory module for my computer worked. Many thanks to the man who sent it to me. Also, thanks to the other man who told me other things I ought to do to get the best out of my computer. Lord, thank you for such nice people, and thank you for your help in getting it installed. I couldn't do it alone. In Jesus' name, Amen.

Archeologist unearths biblical controversy

Artifacts from Iron Age fortress confirm Old Testament dates of Edomite kingdom
By MICHAEL VALPY, 1-25-05
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050125/ARCHEOLOGY25/International/Idx

Canadian archeologist Russell Adams's interest is in Bronze Age and Iron Age copper production. He never intended to walk into archeology's vicious debate over the historical accuracy of the Old Testament...

Yet by coincidence, Prof. Adams of Hamilton's McMaster University says, he and an international team of colleagues fit into place a significant piece of the puzzle of human history in the Middle East -- unearthing information that points to the existence of the Bible's vilified Kingdom of Edom at precisely the time the Bible says it existed, and contradicting widespread academic belief that it did not come into being until 200 years later....

The team led by Prof. Adams, Thomas Levy of the University of California at San Diego and Mohammad Najjar of the Jordanian Department of Antiquities was investigating copper mining and smelting at a site called Khirbat en-Nahas, by far the largest copper-production site in the region.

They applied high-precision radiocarbon-dating methods to some of their finds, and as they say in the British journal Antiquities, "The results were spectacular."

They firmly established that occupation of the site began in the 11th century BC and a monumental fortress was built in the 10th century BC, supporting the argument for existence of an Edomite state at least 200 years earlier than had been assumed.

What is particularly exciting about their find is that it implies the existence of an Edomite state at the time the Bible says King David and his son Solomon ruled over a powerful united kingdom of Israel and Judah.

It is the historical accuracy -- the very existence of this united kingdom and the might and splendour of David and Solomon, as well as the existence of surrounding kingdoms -- that lies at the heart of the archeological dispute.

Those scholars known as minimalists argue that what is known as "state formation" -- the emergence of regional governments and kings -- did not take place in the area until the imperialistic expansion of the Assyrian empire in the 8th century BC, so David and Solomon, rather than being mighty monarchs, were mere petty chieftains.

And because everything that takes place in the Middle East inevitably is political, the minimalist argument is seen as weakening modern Israel's claim to Palestine....

Finally, there is the biblical account of David's war against the Edomites, in which David and his general, Joab, kill 18,000 Edomites and establish military control over them by "putting garrisons throughout all Edom."

Irish scholar John Bartlett, one of the world's great experts on the Edomites, dates the battle at 990 to 980 BC, precisely when Prof. Adams and his colleagues date the fortress.

Says Prof. Adams: "This battle between the Israelites and the Edomites, although not possible to document, is typical of the sort of border conflicts between Iron Age states. And the evidence of our new dates at least proves that it may, in fact, be possible to place the Edomites in the 10th century [BC] or earlier, which now supports the chronology of the biblical accounts....

My comment

I once heard Bob Thieme say that given enough time, archaeology finally catches up with the Bible.

Incoming email

Turin shroud 'older than thought'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4210369.stm

Tests in 1988 concluded the cloth was a medieval "hoax" The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.

A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old....

My question: Do the words of Pope John Paul II on "how can we find Jesus?" agree with the Bible?

Romans 10:8-10 says, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

TWO WAYS TO FIND CHRIST

John Paul II Penetrates Paths of Christianity
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0008/ZE000809.html#item5

VATICAN CITY, AUGUST 9 (2000) (ZENIT.org).- The words "Christ continues to walk with us on the paths of history," beautifully summarize John Paul II's address this morning during the traditional Wednesday general audience. His words were in response to the question that is central to the life of every Christian: HOW CAN WE FIND JESUS?

"It is an encounter that takes place in daily life, in time and space," the Holy Father said to the 20,000 pilgrims present at the audience...

Total Change
As he did 2000 years ago, Jesus continues to call our consciences. "When Christ touches a life, he imprints a profound change in our perception and plans."..."It is a radical change that leaves no room for doubts and leads one on a path full of difficulties, but which is supremely liberating," John Paul II said....

"When he touches a person's life, Christ causes unease in the conscience, reads into the heart, as was the case with the Samaritan woman, to whom he recounted 'everything she had done.' He especially causes repentance and love to spring, as happened to Zacchaeus, who gave half of his goods to the poor and restored fourfold to those he had defrauded. This also happened to the repentant sinful woman, whose sins were forgiven 'because she has loved much,' and the adulteress: instead of judging her, he exhorts her to lead a life far from sin."

In Spirit and Truth
The difference between Christianity and other religions is precisely this: it is an encounter with a living person, with Jesus. In this way, we are "able to have true worship, which consists in adoring the Father 'in spirit and in truth,'" John Paul II explained.

The Two Master Paths
However, THE QUESTION STILL STANDS: HOW CAN WE FIND CHRIST? The Pope offered two fundamental means using Jesus' own words. First of all, we can encounter Jesus through his Word, in the Gospel. In the second place, "CHRIST IS PRESENT IN THE EUCHARIST, SOURCE OF LOVE, UNITY, AND SALVATION," the Pope said.

GENERAL AUDIENCE, August 9, 2000
The Decisive Encounter with Christ, Word Made Flesh

1. In our previous reflections we followed humanity's encounter with God, who created us and has placed himself on our paths in search of him. Today we will meditate on the supreme encounter between God and humanity, which is celebrated in Jesus Christ, the divine Word who became flesh and makes his dwelling in our midst (Cf. Jn 1,14). God's final revelation, as St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon, observed in the 2nd century, is fulfilled "when the Word became man, rendering himself similar to man and man similar to himself so that, through the similarity with the Son, man would become precious before the Father (Adversus Haereses V, 16,2). This intimate embrace between divinity and humanity, which St. Bernard compares to the "kiss" referred to in the Canticle of Canticles (Cf. Sermons on the cantica canticorum II), is diffused from the person of Christ to those he meets. Such an encounter manifests various dimensions that we shall now try to describe.

2. This is an encounter that takes place in daily life, in time and space. In this connection, the passage just read from John's Gospel is meaningful (Cf Jn 1:35-42). We find a specific chronological indication of a day and an hour, a locality and a house where Jesus resided. There are men of simple life who are transformed, even in their name by that encounter. To have one's life touched by Christ in fact means to see one's own life and plans upset. When those fishermen of Galilee met Jesus on the shore of the lake and heard his call, they "brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him" (Lk 5,11). It is a radical change that leaves no room for doubts and leads one on a road full of difficulty, but very liberating: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16,24).

3. When he enters the life of a person, Christ disquiets his conscience and reads his heart, as happened with the Samaritan woman, to whom he said "all that she had done" (Cf. Jn 4:29). Above all, he makes repentance and love spring, as happened to Zacchaeus who gave half of his goods to the poor and restored fourfold what he had defrauded (Cf.Lk 19:8). This also happened to the repentant sinner whose sins were forgiven "because she loved much" (Lk 7:47) and to the adulteress who was not judged but exhorted to lead a new life far from sin (Cf. Jn 8:11). The encounter with Jesus is akin to a regeneration: it gives birth to a new creature, capable of true worship, which consists in the adoration of the Father "in spirit and truth" (Jn 4:23-24). Meeting Christ on the path of your own life also means finding physical healing. To his disciples themselves Jesus entrusted the mission of announcing the Kingdom of God, conversion, and the forgiveness of sins (Cf. Lk 24:47), but also of curing the sick, freeing from every evil, consoling and sustaining. In fact, the disciples "preached that men should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them" (Mk 6:12-13). Christ came to seek, find, and save the whole person. As a condition for salvation, Jesus exacts faith, with which we abandon ourselves totally to God who acts in us. In fact, to the woman with the haemorrhage, who as a last hope touched the hem of his garment, Jesus said: "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease" (Mk 5:34).

4. The purpose of Christ's coming into our midst is to lead us to the Father. Indeed, "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known" (Jn 1:18). This historical revelation, fulfilled by Jesus in actions and words, reaches us profoundly through the interior action of the Father (Cf Mt 16:17; Jn 6:44-45) and the illumination of the Holy Spirit (Cf. Jn 14,26; 16,13). Because of this, the risen Jesus diffuses it as the principle of the remission of sins (Cf. Jn 20:22-23) and source of divine love in us (Cf. Rm 5,5). Thus there is a Trinitarian communion that already begins during earthly life and has as its end the fullness of the vision, when "we will be like God, because we will see him as he is" (1 Jn 3:2).

5. Now Christ continues to walk next to us along the paths of history, on the foundation of his promise: "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Mt 28:20). He is present through his Word, "a Word that calls, invites, that appeals personally, as happened to the apostles. When persons are touched by the Word, obedience is born, that is, a hearing that changes life. Every day they are nourished by the bread of the Word. Deprived of it, they are as though dead, and no longer have anything to communicate to their brothers and sisters, because the Word is Christ (Orientale lumen, n. 10).

CHRIST IS PRESENT, THEN, IN THE EUCHARIST, SOURCE OF LOVE, UNITY AND SALVATION. The words that he pronounced one day in the synagogue of the city of Capernaum on the lake of Tiberias resound constantly in our churches. They are words of hope and life: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (Jn 6:54-55).

My question: Do the messages of the Mary apparition agree with the Bible?

http://www.understandthetimes.org/queenofall.shtml

In another message, Mary told the seers: "Tell this priest, tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth. You are all my children."

Her reported messages in Betania, Venezuela typify her words of hope given around the world: "My children, I am giving you a piece of Heaven...It is for everyone, not only Catholics....

Moslems chanted from the Koran: "Mary, God has chosen thee. And purified thee; He has chosen thee above all women."...

Pope John Paul II believes that IF VICTORY COMES TO THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH IT WILL BE BROUGHT BY MARY. In his book, Crossing The Threshold of Hope, he makes this unexpected statement: After my election as Pope, as I became more involved in the problems of the universal Church, I came to have a similar conviction: On this universal level, IF VICTORY COMES IT WILL BE BROUGHT BY MARY. Christ will conquer through her, because he wants the Church’s victories now and in the future to be linked to her.

I held this conviction even though I did not yet know very much about Fatima. I could see, however, that there was a certain continuity among La Salette, Lourdes, and Fatima - and, in distant past, our Polish Jasna Gora.

And thus we come to MAY 13, 1981, WHEN I WAS WOUNDED BY GUNSHOTS FIRED IN ST. PETER’S SQUARE. At first, I did not pay attention to the fact that the assassination attempt had OCCURRED ON THE EXACT ANNIVERSARY OF THE DAY MARY APPEARED TO THE THREE CHILDREN AT FATIMA in Portugal and spoke to them the words that now, at the end of this century, seem to be close to their fulfillment....

...the French periodical Le Monde once estimated twenty-one thousand apparitions between 1976 and 1986!"

According to many Marian theologians, THE CO-REDEMPTRIX DOCTRINE WILL BE THE LAST AND FINAL MARIAN DOGMA, AND IT WILL USHER IN HER TRIUMPHANT REIGN PROMISED AT FATIMA. Authors Ted and Maureen Flynn explain what they and many other Marian theologians believe will soon take place. THE LAST MAJOR EVENT WILL BE THE PROCLAMATION OF THE BLESSED MOTHER AS CO-REDEMPTRIX, MEDIATRIX, AND ADVOCATE - THE LAST AND FINAL MARIAN DOGMA OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

ONCE SHE IS PROCLAIMED CO-REDEMPTRIX BY THE POPE, THE QUEEN WILL UNITE ALL RELIGIONS UNDER HER MANTLE....

More important to our context, is the fact that Mary is arguably more highly honored than Jesus in the Koran and in the Muslim world. The Muslims, like the Catholics, refer to her as "Our Lady." She is also venerated as a pure and holy saint in the Islamic world.

Furthermore, Mary is mentioned no less than 34 times in the Koran. In addition, the 19th surah (chapter) of the Koran is named after Mary. Based on these facts alone, it is apparent that “Our Lady” is surely seen as blessed above all women by orthodox Muslims. In addition, consider the following three quotes taken directly from the Koran

Also, it is interesting to note that BOTH MUSLIMS AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH BELIEVE THAT ALLAH AND THE GOD OF THE BIBLE ARE THE SAME. Quoting from the Catholic Catechism we read: THE PLAN OF SALVATION ALSO INCLUDES THOSE WHO ACKNOWLEDGE THE CREATOR, IN THE FIRST PLACE AMONGST WHOM ARE THE MUSLIMS...

My comment

Muslims deny that God has a son, but in the Bible, I John 2:23 says, "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."
---
The Mindset of Muslims
http://outreach.itl.org.uk/imindset.htm

The Qur'an teaches: 'The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He conveyed to Mary and a spirit from Him' (Qur'an 4:171)....

'How can He (God) have a child, when there is for Him no consort ... ?' (Qur'an 6:102), and 'Our Lord hath taken neither wife nor son' (Qur'an 72:3).


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