Pro and Con 1180

Posted 2-4-05

Incoming email, Re: Pro and Con Index

The Pro and Con Index and Main Index seem to be the same.

I wanted to go back to 1987 or 1988 to look at an email I sent about an experience I had, so I went to the Pro and Con and found what is identical to Main Index.

Are the old pro/cons available?

My outgoing email

Yes. I'm sorry. I'll get it changed as soon as possible. I posted Pro and Con 1179 on my main site, then immediately afterward, I can't get into my main site again to make some minor changes. In the meantime, use this URL. It will take you to the Pro and Con Index at the main site. That's where the older ones are posted:

Backup Pro and Cons from 1175 on will also be at: Agape

Incoming email, Re: Sky Showpiece: See Saturn and Titan

Sky Showpiece: See Saturn and Titan
By Joe Rao, Night Sky Columnist, 1-28-05

With the bright Moon having departed the evening sky, this is the week to enjoy Saturn. Now located among the stars of Gemini, the ringed planet is readily visible as a yellowish-white "star" in the winter night sky....

Now two weeks past opposition, it is readily visible low in the East-northeast as darkness falls and is visible for virtually the entire night. It currently shines at magnitude minus 0.3. On this astronomers' scale, smaller numbers represent brighter objects, and negative numbers are reserved for the brightest of all.

Among the stars, only Sirius and Canopus are brighter than Saturn right now. Nearby Pollux, one of the 21 brightest stars appears only one-quarter as bright as Saturn. Pollux and Castor are known as the Twins of Gemini....

The ancients also regarded Saturn as the "highest" planet, occupying the outermost or highest sphere before that of the fixed stars....

It was not until March 1655 that a Dutch mathematician, Christian Huygens (1629-1695) utilized a much better telescope, and saw the rings for what they really were....

Currently, the rings are dramatically tipped more than 23 degrees to our line of sight.

April 2003 was a rather auspicious month for viewing Saturn, as its ring system was opened to its widest possible angle -- 27 degrees -- to Earth. Astronomers at that time said that the maximum Saturnicentric latitude of Earth was attained. Such extremes generally come at approximately 15-year intervals.

Prior to 2003, the last such occasion in September 1988; the next will be in October 2017. Still broadly displayed to our view now, the rings are gradually tipping away from Earth and by August 2009 they’ll be turned edgewise to us and become difficult, if not impossible to see....

My reply

The tilt of the rings helps us realize that Eze. 1:27,28 is talking about Saturn. It says, "I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn is yellow and amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about (i.e., the ring system). As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This (i.e., the ring system) was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD."

Incoming email, Re: The Feast of John 5

This information is from a Bible commentary. It is interesting that in the next scene the disciples are picking grain.....indicative of the Spring or early Summer. Also the fact that the person was outside laying next to the pool would indicate the same, as opposed to the Fall.

After this healing that waited 38 years, will there be a period of reaping the harvest just like the disciples were 'picking the grain'?...

After these things there was a feast of the Jews. Though every feast in the Jewish calendar has found some one to advocate its claim to be this unnamed feast, yet the vast majority of commentators choose either the feast of Purim, which came in March, or the Passover, which came in April. Older commentators pretty unanimously regarded it as the Passover, while the later school favor the feast of Purim (John 4:35) locates Jesus in Samaria in December, and John 6:4 finds him on the shores of Galilee just before a Passover. If, then, this was the feast of Purim, the Passover of John 6:4 was the "second" in Jesus' ministry, and that ministry lasted but two years and a fraction. But if the feast here mentioned was a Passover, then the one at John 6:4 would be the "third" Passover, and the ministry of Jesus lasted three years and a fraction. Since, then, the length of Jesus' ministry is largely to be determined by what the feast was, it becomes important for us to fix the feast, if possible.

That it was "not" Purim the following arguments may be urged. (1) Purim was not a Mosaic feast, but one established by human laws; hence Jesus would not be "likely" to observe it. True, we find him at the feast of Dedication which was also of human origin, but he did not "go up" to attend it; he appears to have attended because he was already in Jerusalem (John 10:22).; John (2); John Here; John the; John pregnant; John juxtapositionof "feast" and "went up" indicates that Jesus was "drawn" to Jerusalem by this feast, but Purim was celebrated by the Jews everywhere, and did not require that any one should go to Jerusalem, as did the three great festivals--Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. (3) It was kept in a boisterous, riotous manner, and was therefore not such a feast as Jesus would honor. (4) It came early in the year, when the weather was too rigorous and inclement for sick people to frequent porticoes. (5) It did not include a Sabbath Day. (6) As Purim was just a month before the Passover, Jesus would hardly have returned to Galilee before the Passover (John 6:4) unless he intended to miss the Passover, which he would hardly do for the sake of attending Purim in Jerusalem.

Those contending that it was "not" the Passover, present several arguments, which we note and answer as follows: (1) Since John gives the name of other Passovers, he would have named this also, had it been one. But the conclusion is inferential, and not logical; and the answer is to be twofold: First, perhaps John did give the name by prefixing the article to it, and calling it "the feast", for being the oldest-- older than the law and the Sabbath--and most important of all feasts, it was rightly called by pre-eminence "the feast". Since the Sinaitic manuscript gives the article, and calls it "the feast", the manuscript authority for and against this reading is pretty evenly balanced. Second, if John did not name it, there is probably this reason for his silence. Where he names the feast elsewhere it is thought that the incidents narrated take color from, or have some references to, the particular festal occasion which is named; but here there is no such local color, and failure to name the feast prevents mistaken attempts to find such local color. (2) Again it is objected that if this is a different Passover from John 6:4; then John skips a year in the life of Jesus. He probably does so skip, and this is not strange when the supplemental nature of his Gospel is considered.

In favor of its being the Passover we submit two points: (1) Daniel seems to forecast the ministry of the Messiah as lasting one-half week of years (Daniel 9:27). (2) It fits better in the chronological arrangement, for in the next scene we find the disciples plucking grain, and the Sabbath question is still at full heat. But the harvest season opens with the Passover.

Rev. 22:1-5 describes what sounds like our brook Zered in our promised land, New Jerusalem in Heaven, as being exuberant with growth. The "river of water of life" is lined with trees, the leaves of which are for the healing of the nations.

Marilyn, here is the meaning of the word "Zered":

>>>from an unused root meaning to be exuberant in growth>>>

Glad your computer is back up and running. Blessings. dp

My reply

In John 2:23, it mentions "when he was in Jerusalem at the PASSOVER." After that, he was at Cana of Galilee, stopping 2 days at Samaria on the way.

John 5:1 says, "After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem." There were only three feasts requiring the males to journey to Jerusalem, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. Therefore, the feast in John 5:1 does seem to be Pentecost. This was when Jesus said to the man who had suffered an infirmity 38 years, "RISE."

That is similar to his "COME UP HITHER" in Rev. 4:1. Chances are good that "RISE", in John 5:8, represents the Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost.

An "angel went down at a CERTAIN SEASON (i.e., spring) into the pool, and troubled the water" (John 5:4). When Jesus was at Samaria, John 4:35 says, "There are yet four months (Adar, Nisan, Iyar and Sivan), and then cometh HARVEST." That could not be said about the Feast of Tabernacles, but it could be said about Pentecost, "the feast of harvest."

Ex. 23:14-16 says, "Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year. Thou shalt keep (1) THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib [=Nisan]; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:) And (2) THE FEAST OF HARVEST (Pentecost), the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and (3) THE FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast (past tense) gathered in thy labours out of the field."

I think John 5:21,25, 28,29 cinches Pentecost for the "resurrection of life". It says, as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the So9n quickeneth whom he will...Verily, verily (i.e., this is important), I say unto you, The HOUR IS COMING, AND NOW IS when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God (i.e., saying "Come up hither"): and they that hear shall live....All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life".

For us, now, I think there are yet four months to the harvest (March, April, May and June). I think Sivan 7, when Pentecost is fully come, is the best bet. That will start at 6 PM on Sivan 6 (June 13). Midnight of Sivan 7, will come 6 hours later (the beginning of our June 14). Agape

> > Glad your computer is back up and running.

It seems to be doing fine. However, after uploading Pro and Con 1179 yesterday, I can't get in again. I'll post new Pro and Cons on the small Earthlink web site I inherited when gave all their accounts to Bookmark it too:

My reply to MJ Martin on Five Doves site, Re: "Feast Of Trumpets/Rapture of the Church" also:

I can fill in some necessary details.

> > The Feast of Trumpets is when the "last trump" of the rapture of 1 Cor 15 is blown.

That's correct. Now figure out when the FIRST TRUMP will be blown. I don't think it will sound on the same day as the "last trump." Tip: what Feast is associated with the sounding of the first trump of the Bible?

> > The Feast of Trumpets is known as the Wedding of the Messiah, and the Church is the Bride of Christ, and the rapture is when the Church is caught up to heaven to be wed with Christ....
> > The Feast of Trumpets is also known as the coronation of the Messiah, when he will start reigning as king, thus the beginning of the "Day of the Lord", which includes the tribulation.

Since Elijah must come before the Day of the Lord (Mal. 4:5), I think the Day of the Lord will not come until the Day of Christ's Coronation.

> > It is also time for the bema judgment, or the judgement of the works of the righteous, and judgement must begin at the house of the Lord.
> > [2Cor 11:2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
> > Rapture parallels with the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh HaShana)

I agree, but that Rapture is the Pre-Wrath Rapture, not the Pre-Trib Rapture. I think the Feast of Trumpets is the "last trump", the day of the Rapture of the 144,000 Israelites that are to be added to the Bride group that were caught up to Heaven at the first trump. At that "last trump", the 144,000 Israelites plus the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations" will be raptured "out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:9,14).

If the "last trump" is during the "great tribulation", when is the FIRST TRUMP?

I believe that the "last trump" will sound on the same Feast of Trumpets on which will be the Coronation of Christ, the Judgment Seat of Christ and the pouring out of the Wrath of God on the Earth (Rev. 11:15-18). I also think the Marriage of the Lamb will take place in Heaven that same day.

That will be the day that both those caught up to Heaven at the FIRST TRUMP and those caught up to Heaven at the "last trump" will be called to "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:23).

Mt. 24:31 tells us about the Bride saints that are ALREADY IN HEAVEN being called to the general assembly in Heaven at the time the "last trump" calls up the Tribulation saints It says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

When this call goes out to all the Bride saints already in Heaven, a call also goes out to catch up the 144,000 that are to be added to the Bride group at the time of the "last trump." Along with the 144,000, the great multitude that can't be numbered will also be called from Earth to the general assembly in Heaven.

Mark 13:27 tells us about this call. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (it's the last trump, the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture at the first trump).

> > The shofar blown on Rosh HaShanah is known as the last trump, which the apostle Paul mentioned in First Thessalonians 4:16-17. At this time, the believers in Christ will escape the tribulation on earth and will be taken to Heaven in the rapture along with the righteous who had died before this time.

I Thess. 4:16,17 doesn't say it is at the time of the last trump. It is the time of the FIRST TRUMP. The last trump is in I Cor. 15:51,52.

> > In Judaism, there are three trumpets that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. THE FIRST TRUMP IS BLOWN ON THE FEAST OF PENTECOST (Exodus 19:19). It proclaimed that God had betrothed Himself to Israel. THE LAST TRUMP IS SYNONYMOUS WITH ROSH HASHANAH".

That's correct. "THE FIRST TRUMP IS BLOWN ON THE FEAST OF PENTECOST." That's the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is "THE LAST TRUMP", It's blown on Rosh HaShanah, the Feast of Trumpets.

Incoming email, Re: The Feast of John 5

Marilyn, below you mentioned:
>>>In John 2:23, it mentions "when he was in Jerusalem at the PASSOVER." After that, he was at Cana of Galilee, stopping 2 days at Samaria on the way.>>>

The 2 days at Samaria are representative of the gospel going to the Gentiles for the last 2 Days of 2000 years. The sequence seems to be Passover in John 2, representing the time of the Cross, followed by the account of the visit to Samaria for 2 Days.....representing the time from the Cross until now, the 2 Days the gospel goes to the Gentiles.......

......And then, AFTER the 2 Days mentioned in John 4, the Raising of the man with the infirmity in John chapter 5. If this was indeed on Pentecost or a Sabbath very close to Pentecost, then we have the Sabbath day representing the end of the 6 prior days or 6000 years.......including the last 2 days or 2000 years the gospel has gone to the Gentiles.

If the end of this 6000 and 2000 year period was actually in 1998, then we have had 7 days or 7 years to embark the Ark, just as Noah had 7 days to embark. And Noah Troyer's prophecy ending in 1998 is still correct. 1998 plus 7 is 2005.

Also, the 50 day count from Passover/Firstfruits to Pentecost is 50 days. If those days represent a period of 40 years each then that period from Passover/Firstfruits to Pentecost also represents 2000 years as well.

So the time indicators in John's gospel seem to indicate the start being at Passover (John 2) followed by a period of 2000 years (John 4, the 2 days at Samaria, gospel to Gentiles), followed by the raising of the invalid on or close to Pentecost on a Sabbath day......conclusion of 6007 years.
God bless you.

My reply


> > If the end of this 6000 and 2000 year period was actually in 1998, then we have had 7 days or 7 years to embark the Ark, just as Noah had 7 days to embark.

Since Noah had a 7-day notice before the Flood, and Joseph gave a 7-year notice of the coming 7 bad years, a 7-year warning before the 7-year Tribulation makes sense.

The 7 years from I998 to 2005 seem to parallel the 7 good years. The Tribulation will parallel the 7 bad years. We know that when the third seal is broken, there will be famine (Rev. 6:5,6).

The 6000 years started when Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden. I figure that was in BC 4004/4003. That would make the last 2000-year period start in BC 4/3, not 30 AD. Because there is no zero year, the last 2000 years would end in 1997/1998.

Ex. 20:20 might suggest a similar time to test, or prove, the church. It says, "Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to PROVE YOU, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not." We know that the time of testing that will come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10) will be 7 years (Lev. 26:28; Dan. 9:27). Therefore, a like time of proving the wise virgins makes sense. That would be roughly 7 years of testing prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture and 7 years of testing prior to the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

We should know soon. If Gemini is the sign of the 1st Rapture, it should take place before July 12, 2005. Once Saturn leaves Gemini, it will be a long time before it returns. One orbit takes 29.5 years. Agape

Incoming email, Re: The "Sun" Pope JPII

> [Original Message] > From: Gary Dowdle > To: Marilyn Agee > Date: 2/2/05 12:52:38 PM > Subject: The "Sun" Pope JPII > > Marilyn, > A number of web sites and commentators have focused on > the news about Pope JPII and the ongoing health > issues. It is often mentioned that he is known as the > De Labore Solis or Pope of the labor of the Sun > referring to his birth at the time of a partial solar > eclipse, May 18, 1920 with the Sun in Taurus near the > Pleiades cluster. > I found it interesting to also examine his approximate > date of conception which I calculate around Aug. > 22-23, 1919 (-270 days) and note that the Sun was in > conjunction with the "king star" Regulus in Leo with > Saturn close by. > Both astronomical pictures have interesting links with > the church (pleiades) and Christ (lion of the tribe of > Judah/Leo/Regulus) and Saturn (heaven?). > As you know, when his time finally passes, many eyes > will be focused on his successor.

My reply

Thanks. I hadn't thought of looking up the sky on those dates. So the birth was on a day when the Sun grew dark. Mercury and Venus were in close conjunction on the left of the eclipse. Jupiter and Neptune.were in conjunction on the right. That was an interesting sky. I keep wondering about Isa. 9:15. It says, "The ancient and honourable (i.e., the Tribulation Pope), he is the head (6th head of the great red dragon); and the prophet that teacheth lies (the 7th head), he is the tail" (because Satan indwells him). Ancient could easily refer to one between 85 and 92. Honorable fits a Pope, because he is addressed as Your Holiness or Most Holy Father. Food for thought. Agape

Incoming email, Re: FEASTS IN JOHNS GOSPEL

Here is a list of the 'Feasts' used in John's gospel through chapter 5:1

Joh 2:8
And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

Joh 2:9
* When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was : (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

Joh 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles * * which he did.

Joh 4:45
Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.

Joh 5:1
After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

Notice that Jesus was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast in John 2. Then in John 4 he was with the Samaritans for 2 days and then in 4:45 he went into Galilee. The wording tells us some interesting things and proves the continuation of the timeline.......that is there were no gaps because it refers back to John 2 and the Passover that Jesus was just at. No gap.

Then John 5:1 says "after this". This would seem to indicate the continuation of the story. The healing of the man by the pool would be the third miracle of Jesus And the next feast 'after' Passover is the phrase 'after this' would so imply.

In John's gospel the Feast of Passover is mentioned by name as is the Feast of Tabernacles. Why would the scriptures use this phrase "a feast of the Jews" instead of naming it? Perhaps to keep it hidden....until the end. dp

My reply

I think you're right. Pentecost was rather obscure on purpose, very likely because it is the day of the Rapture.

The man who had an infirmity 38 years heard Jesus say, "Rise" (John 5:8). That reminds me of the Song of Solomon. In 2:10, he said, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away." In verse 13, he said, "Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away." In Rev. 4:1 he says, "Come up hither."

In John 5:25, Jesus said, "Verily, verily (i.e., this is important), I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS (i.e., on Pentecost), when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This seems to knock out Ascension Day as a possible day of the resurrection of the dead in Christ. It sounds like the dead in Christ that come with Jesus will get their resurrection bodies on Pentecost, the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture.

The Pentecost when the man was told to take up his bed and walk was a sabbath, as all feasts are. They are to be holy convocations, days of rest. Agape

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Updated 2-4-05