Pro and Con 1181

Posted 2-7-05

Incoming email

My outgoing email to Five Doves site, Re: Jim Bramlett, Saturn and the 7 years

I would be afraid to say what you did--"Saturn (Satan)". You are following in the footsteps of Bob Wadsworth there. It would be safer to just say "Saturn" in case I am right that Saturn is Heaven.

Eze. 1:26 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their (the terrestrial planet's) heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a SAPPHIRE stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus Christ) above upon it" Sapphire means "dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear.

Eze. 1:27 says, "And I saw as the colour of amber." Saturn has amber on it.

Some Bible version that I have read translated "from the appearance of his loins even upward...and downward" as from the equator upward...and downward. That's what it means.

The end of verse 27 and verse 28 says, "I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake." The one that spake was "the Lord GOD" (2:4), i.e., the pre-incarnate Christ.

The place of his throne not only has amber on it, it has "brightness round about," i.e., it has rings around it. Their colors are mainly caused by the same as in the rainbow, sunshine on ice crystals.

As viewed from Earth, there are 7 rings. Zech 3:9,10 (LXX) says, "I bring forth my servant The Branch (Jesus). For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes" (orbs, rings).

Exodus 24:10 (KJV) says, "there was under his (God's) feet as it were a paved work of a SAPPHIRE stone, and as it were (symbolic language) the body of heaven (heavenly body) in his clearness (tohar, glory)." The sapphire symbolizes Heaven, because it means dear to the planet Saturn. God's feet were on sapphire, because Mt. Sinai (probably from the sanskrit sani, Saturn) symbolized heaven.

When Moses went up Mt. Sinai and stayed 40 days and 40 nights, his ascent probably foretold the time of the Rapture--on Pentecost.

Psa. 78:69 says that God "built his sanctuary (i.e., the Tabernacle) like high palaces (i.e., planets), LIKE THE EARTH" (which is a planet". In II Cor. 12:2, Paul was caught up to "the third heaven" (1. Mars, 2. Jupiter and 3. Saturn). The Tabernacle was made up of three cubes. The 3rd cube, the Holy of Holies, represented Heaven. From the altar, which represented Earth, Heaven was three spheres, whose length, breadth and height were equal (as in a cube enclosing the sphere), away from Earth. Those going from Earth to Heaven must first be cleansed, as pictured by the Laver, bath. Jesus provided the way to be cleansed.

In John 14:2-4, Jesus said, " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And WHITHER I GO YE KNOW, AND THE WAY YE KNOW."

We do know the way to Saturn. The Cassini spacecraft, 7 years on the way, went into orbit around Saturn July 1, 2004. I think the Rapture will follow on Pentecost, June 14, 2005. Cassini seems to be a splendid sign of the Rapture. Fulfilling its 4-year mission, it is still circling Saturn, demonstrating that we do know the way to Heaven. The 7 years probably point to these 7 years that we have had to wait to get there.

On our trip, Jesus is the way. He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
"Countdown on track for Cassini launch"
OCT. 12, 1997

Cassini -- NASA's largest and costliest interplanetary spacecraft ever -- will take SEVEN YEARS to reach Saturn.
Cassini arrived in orbit July 1, 2004. It started sending us pictures of Saturn July 2. Now, we are sure we know the way.

If we had been smarter, we could have figured out in the Jewish 5758 (1997/1998) that it would take us SEVEN YEARS TO BE CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN. We were too anxious to see it then. We can, at last, understand it now that the seven good years are almost over. Agape

His reply

Thanks. I was quoting Ron Reese. Jim

Astronomers Discover 'Hot Spot' on Saturn,3566,146391,00.html

2-4-05 - HONOLULU Astronomers using a giant telescope atop a volcano have discovered a hot spot at the tip of Saturn's (search) south pole.

The infrared images captured by the Keck I telescope at the W.M. Keck Observatory atop Mauna Kea on the Big Island suggest a warm polar vortex a large-scale weather pattern likened to a jet stream on Earth (search) that occurs in the upper atmosphere. It's the first such hot vortex ever discovered in the solar system....

Saturn's Hot Spot

2-3-05 This is the sharpest image of Saturn's temperature emissions taken from the ground; it is a mosaic of 35 individual exposures made at the W.M. Keck I Observatory, Mauna Kea, Hawaii on Feb. 4, 2004. The images to create this mosaic were taken with infrared radiation. The mosaic was taken at a wavelength near 17.65 microns and is sensitive to temperatures in Saturn's upper troposphere....

Incoming email, Re: The Feast of John 5

From: David Parker
To: Dave Camp
Cc: Marilyn Agee

Dave, there are different opinions about what was harvested and when. The Feast of Firstfruits started the 7 weeks of harvest leading up to Pentecost. The barley was reaped first and then the wheat.

Different commentaries indicate different things. Some say that in Israel the wheat was harvested and was concluded by Pentecost. Others say Pentecost STARTED the wheat harvest and it ran until mid June.

Other crops were harvested in the summer, fruits etc and the grapes were tended. Grapes were harvested in the fall.

At Tabernacles, which was a Feast, I do not believe there was any harvesting going on. So the FOT was the conclusion of the harvest.....I think.

It is interesting that the 'rapture' is called "the Day of Redemption". For the last couple of years I have felt this would be in the Fall. But each Fall I have had not inner witness that this was the time.

Pentecost is a single day Feast where 'Passover' is a 8 day one as is the FOT.

I have read I Cor 15:23 so many times. It says 'But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward those that are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end.....and etc.

The word 'afterward' means "next in order" and so does the word "then".

If Jesus was "made alive" see verse 22, at Firstfruits then the phrase "next in order" would lead one to assume the next Feast was being referred to which would be Pentecost.

Then, next in order, comes the end........when others are resurrected.

If the above is correct then Pentecost is indeed next on the calendar for the 'rapture'.

And if the waving of the sheaf of barley pictured the resurrection and presentation of Jesus before the Father..........likewise would not the waving of the 2 loaves picture the resurrection and presentation of the church before the Father.

I have felt the "sealing" unto the day of redemption meant the sealing was on Pentecost and the next Feast would be the day of redemption. But, remember that Jesus breathed on the disciples and imparted the HS on Firstfruits. Was this the sealing.......leading to the day of redemption on Pentecost? dp
Re:: SEALED........WHEN?

We are sealed unto the day of redemption. When did the sealing take place? Only in John's gospel is the account of Jesus blowing INTO the Disciples and them being born again at that time.

Notice the use of the Greek word which is used in John 20 for "breathed on":

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1720 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ejmfusavw from (1722) and phusao (to puff) [cf (5453)]
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Emphusao 2:536,232
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
em-foo-sah'-o Verb
to blow or breathe upon

This word used only once by the LXX translators in Gen 2:7 where God breathed on Adam and he became a living soul. Just as the original creation was completed by an act of God, so to the new creation was completed by an act from the Head of the new creation. (AWP Jo 20:

King James Word Usage - Total: 1 breathe on 1

This is an amazing truth. Just as God breathed INTO Adam, Jesus breathed INTO the disciples for them to be Born Again. Notice the pronunciation of this word even has the breath being blown out. See above.

IF this was the Sealing......then the next Feast after the Feast of Firstfruits is Pentecost. Was Acts 2 only the foretaste of what the final fulfillment will be on Pentecost?

John the Baptist said Jesus will baptize you (us) with the Holy Spirit and Fire. Perhaps this has not fully happened yet......but will on Pentecost. Pentecost is then the foretaste and the final payment of the Spirit.

Also, the above Greek word is used in secular Greek for blowing as into a trumpet. dp

My reply

> > Different commentaries indicate different things. Some say that in Israel the wheat was harvested and was concluded by Pentecost. Others say Pentecost STARTED the wheat harvest and it ran until mid June.

I know how that goes. Someone even went to Israel and asked when the wheat was harvested. The answer was in the summer. Here in Riverside, CA, (Los Angeles area), in 1998, I saw it being harvested within view of my house in the summer too. San Diego, south of LA, is about the same latitude as Jerusalem, so when the wheat is ready to harvest here, it might be ready in northern Israel.

On page 146, Unger's Bible Dictionary says that wheat is harvested in April, May and June. Summer starts June 21. Part of the problem in nailing it down is that harvest starts in the lower areas and progresses to the highlands as the season progresses. It seems that barley harvest started at Firstfruits, and wheat harvest started as soon as the barley was in the barn. However, regardless of when it was cut, no wheat was to be used until the offering was made at Pentecost.

> > Jesus breathed on the disciples and imparted the HS on Firstfruits. Was this the sealing.......leading to the day of redemption on Pentecost?

I think the disciples were sealed on Firstfruits. John 20:19,22 shows that on "the same day at evening, being the first day of the week...he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." Then the counting of the 7 weeks plus one day began. Thus Firstfruits was on Sunday and Pentecost was on Monday in 30 AD.

> > IF this was the Sealing......then the next Feast after the Feast of Firstfruits is Pentecost. Was Acts 2 only the foretaste of what the final fulfillment will be on Pentecost?

This raises a question I hadn't thought of before. Will the speaking in tongues be repeated after the Rapture? There is a good chance, for that begins the ministry of Moses and Elijah.

I know speaking in tongues will be after the Second Coming. Joel 2:23,27-32 says, "he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain (Tishri 1), and the latter rain in the first month (i.e., the new moon, Nisan 1) shall know that I AM IN THE MIDST OF ISRAEL, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I POUR OUT MY SPIRIT. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered".

That being "delivered" is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It is on the Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath, so it is on the Feast of Trumpets, and doesn't seem to be closely associated with Pentecost. However, "AFTERWARD" changes that picture. Christ will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year. Armageddon will then be fought. The Beast and False Prophet will be thrown in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20), and Satan will be chained (Rev. 20:1-3).

And then comes Pentecost? Will the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:9) be poured out again on Pentecost? The chances seem very good.

In Eze. 45, we find out what happens after Christ returns. "In the first month, in the first day of the month (chodesh, new moon, i.e., Nisan 1), thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover". Following Passover is Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) and Firstfruits (Nisan 16). The next feast is Pentecost (Sivan 7).

Peter spoke these words on Pentecost in 30 AD, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit and they shall prophesy:". Maybe this will take place on the Pentecost following the Second Advent on Nisan 1.

Isa. 28:11,12 says, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." The latter part should play out differently in the Millennium. It is the refreshing. Jesus will refresh the damaged Earth to make it like the Garden of Eden.

"I saw a new (kaina, new in freshness) heaven (i.e., atmospheric heavens) and a new earth (i.e., renewed on the surface to make it habitable for man during the Millennium): for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea (symbolic, i.e., no more UN). And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (the true Heaven), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Rev. 21:1,2).

Psa. 104:30 says, "thou RENEWEST THE FACE OF THE EARTH." Rev. 17:15 says, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Psa. 72:8 says, "He (Christ) shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth." Agape

Pope's assailant sends get-well wishes from jail in Turkey
AFP: 2/3/2005

..."Dear Pope, you must now confirm that we are AT THE END OF THE WORLD. This is the last generation of humanity on Planet Earth. Only like this will God give you health and miraculous strength for the coming years....

Agca, then a 23-year-old member of the far-right Turkish Grey Wolves movement, fired at the pope three times as he drove across Saint Peter's Square in an open car to hold a general audience on May 13, 1981....

Three debates fuel ongoing interest in ancient material linked to the Bible

By Richard N. Ostling, 2-5-05

AP - The Shroud of Turin is a 14-foot-long linen strip revered by some as the burial cloth of Jesus. New testing indicates that the relic actually could date from Jesus' era.

An ancient fortress, a burial box and a piece of cloth - historical remains related to the Bible never cease to provoke heated debate...

l In the most important development, scholars say tests on remains from a dig in modern-day Jordan indicate the biblical country of Edom existed during the era of kings David and Solomon, if not earlier. The find could undercut skeptics of biblical history....

Meanwhile, the important Edom research has added fuel to one of the hottest archaeological disputes of recent years.

The Bible reports that Edom was a well-defined land southeast of the Dead Sea that had kings before Israel (Genesis 36:31, 1 Chronicles 1:43), barred Moses during the Exodus (Numbers 20:14-21) and warred with King David (2 Samuel 8:13-14, 1 Kings 11:15-16).

But many scholars have claimed the Bible got it wrong, and no Edomite state existed before the eighth century....

Now comes the report on Edom, in the current edition of the quarterly Antiquity, by Russell Adams of Canada's McMaster University, Thomas Levy of the University of California, San Diego, and other colleagues.

They say pottery remains and radiocarbon work at a major copper processing plant in Jordan indicate settlement in the 11th century B.C. and probably before that, with a nearby monumental fortress from the 10th-century era of David and Solomon. They are convinced the site was part of the Edomite state.

University of Arizona archaeologist William Dever had been skeptical about Edom's existence that early but says this ''discovery is revolutionary'' and lends credibility to the biblical kingdom of David and Solomon....

Incoming email

Do you remember a verse in the OT about firstfruits of something being redeemed on Pentecost.

I remember something about this but it is vague right now. I think you may have mentioned it in your book. dp

My reply

I'm not sure to what you are referring. However, here are some references to Pentecost, the Feast of Harvest.

Neh. 10:35,36 says, "And to bring the firstfruits of our ground (i.e., wheat), and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD: ALSO THE FIRSTBORN OF OUR bring to the house of our God."

Ex. 23:15-20 says, "Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib (or Nisan); for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:) And the feast of harvest (Pentecost), the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field. Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the LORD God. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning. The FIRST OF THE FIRSTFRUITS of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and TO BRING THEE INTO THE PLACE WHICH I HAVE PREPARED."

In John 14:2, Jesus said, "I go to PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU."

I Cor. 15:23 says, "But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Christ is The Firstfruit. I think the "FIRST OF THE FIRSTFRUITS of thy land" in Ex. 23:19 represents the rank of wise virgins caught up to Heaven at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

Incoming email, Re: FEASTS IN JOHNS GOSPEL

From: David Parker

Marilyn, that phrase "and NOW is" is very interesting indeed.....especially if it was said at the time of Pentecost. dp

My reply

I think so too. Agape

Incoming email

Marilyn, below is an email that I received that is interesting. dp
In 1 Kings 6:37 "The foundation of the temple of the Lord was laid in the fourth year, in the month of Ziv." (Cross reference for 2 Ch. 3:2) so to speak. Ziv followed Nisan, before the name was changed to Iyar. Thus, this was a Sprintime "ground-breaking".Peter wrote, " also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house...." l Peter 2:5. This "spiritual house" also had a Springtime "ground-breaking" of sorts on Pentecost. May this help our mutual search in the Word.

My reply

II Chron. 3:2 says of Solomon, "he began to build in the second day of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign."

The Ark was taken into the temple on the Feast of Trumpets (II Chron. 5:3). Untold numbers of sheep were sacrificed. This foreshadowed the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 11:19 says, "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." This will be at the same time that we will be getting our rewards in Heaven (11:18).

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Updated 2-7-05