Pro and Con 1190

Posted 3-28-05

"Babylon", from Five Doves site

Wes K (26 March 2005)"Babylon"
Re: Wes K (15 Nov 2004)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2005/wesk326.htm

Those who are of the opinion that Babylon is the United States might want to read my posting of 11-15-04 regarding this subject. Wes K.

Wes K (15 Nov 2004)
...It is interesting that the Israel Today Magazine of January 12, 2004, had the following to say: "Triggered by the Iraq war, informed sources say that the International Quartet of world powers (the United States, United Nations, European Union, and Russia) HAS DRAFTED A PROPOSAL TO TRANSFER THE SEAT OF THE UNITED NATIONS TO BAGHDAD (ancient Babel or Babylon)! The move would relieve the space constraint of the New York Headquarters, while also freeing it from the physical jurisdiction of the U.S."... (MJA: emphasis mine)

My reply

How did I miss this? We know that the headquarters of the New World Government will finally be moved to the CITY of Babylon, Iraq, south of Baghdad. That is where the Tower of Babel stood. The proposal to transfer it to Baghdad seems like a first step.

Rev 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great CITY Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." In Rev. 17, the city is Vatican City. In Rev. 18, it has been moved to the literal city of Babylon.

Zech. 5:4,10,11 says of the world church, "This is their resemblance through all the earth...Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah (largest wheat measure, i.e., the world church?) And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base." The foundation of the Tower of Babel is still at Babylon.

The land of Shinar was the country of Babylon, now called Iraq. Gen. 11:2-6 says, "it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."

"We Most Certainly Can Know The Day & Hour", posted on Five Doves site

Mark Copfer (23 March 2005)

This is from Donna at Come, Lord Jesus Forum... Great Post !!!!... YBIC, Mark Copfer
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Thanks, Mark. John
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Halleluiah~~Feast once again what the Word is saying
From "Dailyupdate"
As a Thief In the Night - Days of Noah
by Pastor James McCutchan

Many there are in Christendom today who teach that Christians can't know when Jesus is coming because He's coming like a thief in the night.

Yes indeed, Jesus is coming as a thief in the night. But, to whom is He coming as a thief, and what Day is He referring to? The Bible says:

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:1 & 2)

There you have it, beloved. The day of the Lord is coming as a thief in the night. Many stop right there to prove their point that no one can know the time.

The day of the Lord in this text is speaking about the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. How do we know that? Let's go on to the next verse. Often we don't read far enough. The next verse says:

"For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child: and THEY shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

Who are THEY and THEM in the verse above? THEY and THEM are the unbelievers in the tribulation before the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. Always, in both the Old and New Testaments, the day of the Lord refers to the Second Coming of the Lord in judgment.

Always, in the New Testament, the day of Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus, refers to the Rapture of the Church.

Check it out. So then, in the verses above, Paul is saying that the day of the Lord and its judgment will come as a thief in the night upon THEM, and THEY shall not escape.

Now, let's go on to the next verse where Paul speaks to US about US:

"But YE, BRETHREN are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1 Thessalonians 5:4)

Will the day of the Lord come upon the brethren (believers) as a thief in the night? Not a chance! Why not? We, the brethren, have spiritual eyes to see. They don't. The next verse says:

"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore, let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober." (1 Thessalonians 5:5 & 6)

Let us watch and be sober! Let us watch especially the Road Map to Israeli-Palestinian peace; the covenant to be confirmed (guaranteed) by the Gentile antichrist. Jesus also told the Church to watch and know the hour of His coming:

"If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." (Revelation 3:3)

Jesus said that from the negative side. If we read it from the positive side, He said, If you watch, I will not come upon you as a thief, and YOU SHALL KNOW what hour I will come upon you. WATCH AND KNOW THE HOUR OF HIS COMING! THUS SAITH THE LORD!

Jesus told the Church if we watch we won't be overtaken as a thief in the night and we will know what hour He will come.

Is this a contradiction to what Jesus said to Israel? No, it is not. Jesus said to Israel before His death and resurrection:

"But of that day and hour KNOWETH no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36)

Notice please, the verb KNOWETH is in the present tense, relative to the time Jesus said it. Remember, when Jesus said this, it was 32 A.D. and at that time only God the Father knew.

But, did He say that no one would ever know? No! He did not. In the very next verses He goes on to explain:

As In the Days of Noah

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:37)

Let us now go to the book of Genesis and learn more about the days of Noah.

God Foretold the Number of Years Until the Coming Judgment

God revealed to Noah that man's days would be another 120 years until the judgment would come:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)

God Revealed the Way of Salvation for the Believers

"Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch." (Genesis 6:14)

God always keeps the believers from His wrath and judgment. Later, after the ark was finished and as the hour of judgment was nigh, God then revealed to Noah the exact day it would come.

God Foretold the Exact Day

"FOR YET SEVEN DAYS, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." (Genesis 7:4)

God Kept His Word

"And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth." (Genesis 7:10)

Now let's go back to Matthew 24 and further examine what Jesus was saying about the days of Noah:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood THEY were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took THEM all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:37-39)

THEY were eating and drinking. THEY were marrying and giving in marriage. THEY knew not until the flood came and took THEM all away.

Who were THEY? THEY were the unbelievers. The unbelievers knew not until the flood came and took THEM all away. But, as the time drew nigh, THE BELIEVERS KNEW the exact day before the fact! AMEN!

"BUT AS THE DAYS OF NOE WERE, SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE."

My reply

I add my thanks. This is a great article.

Maybe Noah's 7 days represent our last 7 years. Yom can mean days, ages, a space of time understood from another term, etc. Also, maybe the Tribulation will start on Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 19 in 2005), the anniversary of the day it first started to rain. From Adam's creation until Noah's Flood, it didn't rain on Earth. That makes Cheshvan 17 special. If the Rapture is on Sivan 7 (Pentecost, June 14, 2005), that block of time would be counted as 6 months, Sivan, Tamuz, Av, Elul, Tishri and Cheshvan. The year 5766 would have already started on Tishri 1. Food for thought.

Incoming email

From: Cristine Hobzek
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Have a blessed week, Christine
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My reply

> > Daniel 7:9-14 "As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.... The Lord’s throne had wheels…hmmm…this must have been a traveling throne…lol!!!

Hmmm is right. That throne is traveling around the Sun. It takes 29.5 years to make one circuit. It rotates so fast that if it had day and night, a day would only last 10.2 hours. However, Rev. 22:5 tells us that "there shall be no night there." It took me more than 7 years to figure all this out.

In Eze. 1 and 10, the 4 cherubim all have wheels. Their orbits form wheels within wheels. One of the cherubim is the Earth. Eze 1:15,16 says, "Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold ONE WHEEL UPON THE EARTH by the living creatures, with his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness (they look like disks, or lamps in the sky): and their appearance (round disks with smooth edges) and their work (orbiting around the Sun) was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel."

The Sun is in the center of the four wheels. It is the "fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it" of verse 4. The wheel of the Earth is its orbit. Therefore, the four cherubim are the terrestrial planets that fly in concentric orbits, wheels within wheels. They are Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars. Outside of the orbit of Mars is a cloud of asteroids, our Asteroid Belt.

Josephus, a Pharisee priest, told us that the candlestick in the Temple represented the planets, and the Sun among them (Ant. III. 6. 7). Therefore, the candlestick represented (1) the Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter and (7) Saturn. Now, I understand why the Western light was to always be kept lit. It represented the Sun. Saturn was the far eastern light. Three lamps are on the left of Earth, and three lamps are on the right of Earth. The Sun is the first lamp on the west. Earth is in the middle. Saturn is the last lamp on the east.

Eze. 1:26 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (i.e., farther out in space than the terrestrial planets) was the LIKENESS OF A THRONE (Christ's), as the appearance of a SAPPHIRE stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Christ) above upon it. " Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. So I take it that Christ's throne is on Saturn. Mt. Sinai represeted Heaven, and is probably derived from Sani.

The Son of God is the king of Israel. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer (Christ) the LORD of hosts; I am the first (YHWH, king of Israel), and I am the last (YHWH of hosts, Christ the Redeemer); and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD."

At Mt. Sinai, Ex. 24:10 says, "they saw the God of Israel (the Son of God, no one has ever seen the Father at any time, 1 John 4:12): and there was UNDER HIS FEET as it were (symbolic language) a paved work of a SAPPHIRE stone (i.e., representing the planet Saturn), and as it were the body of heaven "(the heavenly body).

Eze. 28:12-14 says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus (meaning rock, i.e., Satan's planet Rahab, now split into our Asteroid Belt) and say unto him (Satan), Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (both the heavenly paradise and the earthly paradise, when he tempted Eve); every precious stone (i.e., every planet in the sky) was thy covering (surroundings), (1) the sardius (Mercury), (2) topaz (Venus), and (3) the diamond (Earth), (4) the beryl (Mars), (5) the onyx (Rahab), and (6) the jasper (Jupiter), (7) the SAPPHIRE (Saturn), (8) the emerald (Uranus), and (9) the carbuncle (Neptune), and (10) gold (Pluto): the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou (Satan) art the anointed cherub that covereth (guards with the flaming sword (an asteroid) that turns every way (it rotates as it orbits in all four directions), Gen, 3:24); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God (Saturn, Heaven); thou hast walked up and down in the midst (on Rahab, the 5th of 10) of the stones of fire (the 10 original planets, before Rahab split up).

Zech. 3:9,10 (LXX) says, "I bring forth my servant The Branch (Christ). For as for the stone (planet) which I have set before the face of JESUS, on the one stone (the planet Saturn) are SEVEN EYES (orbs, circles, rings). Saturn does have 7 rings, and 7 is God's number of perfection and completion.

Yes. Christ's throne has a wheel, its orbit, just as the Earth does. It also has rings like a rainbow. Both are colorful because of sunshine on ice crystals. In Gen 9:13, the Lord said, "I do set MY BOW in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

Eze. 1:27,28 says, "I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn has amber on it), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (i.e., the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (the ring system) round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness (symbolic language) of the glory of the LORD."

> > all that follow the teachings of Lord Jesus and all that completely love God almighty to be warned that the end of something great will occur on March 27th…this first was a date that led me to believe that a great deal of Christian people would go to heaven…not the return of Christ (for Christ as his Angel had come down last December) but for an event of huge proportions because the date of Easter is considered the due date of something to be born exactly 38 weeks after the conception of (the 4th of July) the USA which isBabylon…From something that God brings to birth can be a new beginning for all. God is always surprising me and it is a cool adventure. Do not expect to know the date in advance of many things from God …God will give you enough advance warning to be prepared…As it is now we should be completely prepared for all emergencies for it will not be long. I know it will be very hard for most people on earth but it is still an exciting time in our lives…for many it will be bittersweet. It will be that way for me as well. I have come across many people who havebeen given the truth about the end coming upon us all. They were not surprised by the Word that the Lord Father had given to me about the end. This is good to here because I have been in the Word quite a bit this week learning of others that know much of what I now know. Pray for the Lord God to give you dreams and visions to encourage you in these last days. I know he is longing for your attention in this matter.May all who love God be blessed with his will dominating their lives always and forever.

If the Rapture does not happen on Easter, think about Pentecost. Sivan 7, when Pentecost is fully come (Acts 2:1), arrives on June 14 this year. Remember that dreams and visions may or may not be correct. The Bible is 100% truth in its original editions. It should take first place in our studies. 2Ti 2:15 says, STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

I think Babylon is the literal city of Babylon in Iraq, not the USA. Rev. 18 makes it clear that it is a city, not a country. In Zech. 5, the world church headquarters is to be moved (from Vatican City, Rev. 17) to Babylon, and set there on her base, the foundation of the Tower of Babel in Babylon, Iraq.

Zech. 5:6-11 says, "I said, What is it (it is the world church)? And he said, This is an ephah (the largest wheat measure, and we are called wheat) that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance THROUGH ALL THE EARTH. And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman (i.e., a religious group) that sitteth in the midst of the ephah (the world church). And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women (two religious groups, maybe Catholic and Protestant), and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was built, Gen. 11:2): and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (i.e., foundation). The actual foundation is still there.

Babylon has yet to be destroyed so completely that no man will set foot there. Lately, both our soldiers and those of Poland have been stationed at Babylon.

Jer. 50:1-3 says, "The word that the LORD spake against Babylon and against THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS (Iraq) by Jeremiah the prophet. Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces. For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and NONE SHALL DWELL THEREIN: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast."

Verses 12-15 say, "Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the LORD. Shout against her round about: she hath given her hand: her foundations are fallen, her walls are thrown down: for it is the vengeance of the LORD: take vengeance upon her; as she hath done, do unto her."

Rev 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a stone (i.e., an asteroid, the flaming sword that turns every way of Gen. 3:24) like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and SHALL BE FOUND NO MORE AT ALL."

It looks like this stone will be Satan's home. After his planet split up, he hewed him out a home in an asteroid. Rev 8:11 says, "And the name of the star (Gr., aster) is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here (Babylon)? and whom hast thou here (the False Prophet, the final Satan possessed Antichrist), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (in the asteroid Wormwood), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (the asteroid)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely (i.e., for sure) VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE (the asteroid) LIKE A BALL INTO A LARGE COUNTRY (into Iraq, not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down." Agape

My other comments

Here, it is easy to see that the Sun is a fire infolding itself.

The Lord dwells "between the cherubims." Isa 37:16 says, "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel (the Son of God, i.e., the pre-incarnate Christ, Isa. 44:6), that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth."

Since the terrestrial planets are called cherubim, the other planets could be called cherubim too. If the LORD of hosts, Christ, dwells above the heads of the terrestrial planets, and between two cherubim, Saturn fulfills these requirements. Next to the Sun, we have the terrestrial planets. Farther out in space, we have three planets that seem to be the three cherubim the LORD had in mind here, Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus. I think Christ dwells on Saturn "between the cherubims." Psa. 99:1 says, "The LORD reigneth (i.e., it is the Feast of Trumpets); let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims (i.e., on Saturn, between Jupiter and Uranus); let the earth be moved" (i.e., it's the time of judgment).

Rev. 11:18,19 says, "the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (i.e., it is the Feast of Trumpets), and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." This is when the two stones of Rev. 8:8 and 10 are dumped onto Earth for breaking the Ten Commandments, and because the people remaining on Earth after the 2nd Rapture have not availed themselves of the remedy--accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

The Holy of Holies represented Heaven, and I think the two cherubim flanking the mercy seat (on Saturn) represent Jupiter and Uranus. Ex. 25:22 says, "And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat (probably representing the place of the Judgment Seat of Christ), from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel."


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