Pro and Con 1193

Posted 4-4-05

Incoming e-mail, Re: Saturn--the third heaven? P/C 1187 and 1192

The following is an excerp from trashbincat of P/C 1192 regarding Saturn. Below trashbincat's statement is a old e-mail that I passed to you on March 11. This e-mail may have gotten lost with your other e-mail back when your computer expired for good. After reading trashbincat's comments to you, I thought to re-send my comments which still seem appropriate. When I discuss Saturn with my teaching I run into the same resistance... Reminding each student that "All things are possible" does tend to shut down their doubt and their often, mocking mouth. Your own Dove like responses to your reader's simply amaze me and are used as an example for my own patience. I myself, have become at most times, short on patience these last years to those I reach if I realize they should be past the milk of the word and resting in a greater understanding to the character and nature of a Mighty LORD God, where all things ARE possible and require a labor of love in searching out those things which he has given us.

As you have previously stated, "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto you at THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST."

May "Grace and peace (wholeness) be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God" (2 Peter 1:2).
Agape
---
P/C 1192
trashbincat said: Second of all, Saturn being the 3rd Heaven what kind of blasphemy is this ? so what about Neptune, Pluto etc ? Man’s probes have already gone as far as Pluto and beyond and captured photograph and detected nothing on Saturn, The Cassini Probe has already been sent to Saturn and picked up no unusual signals, it’s a gaseous cold waste of a giant planet, nothing more nothing less, What kind of God would start living on a Giant Gaseous planet, with Enoch and Elijah and Jesus the 3 in flesh bodies, sitting and breathing toxic air ? with man made NASA probes flying by ? Doesn’t look like the concept of Heaven that Jesus was talking about, a natural terrestrial planet or a gaseous giant, with asteroids rotating it, one planet in a small insignificant star system , out of the millions and trillions of stars or planets or “mansions” or whatever, why SATURN ? How do you know your Interpretation of the bible is true ? You seem to be the only person on earth I found saying this daft idea that Saturn is where God or Yahweh Lives, either His choice of residence is poor, or you are totally ignorant of what Saturn is. Then NASA as might as build a powerful rocket, and send man or probes crashing into Saturn, right before Jesus’s throne is it ? How easy it is then to reach heaven and God’s throne, build a space probe or go there directly. Jesus said clearly “where I go you cannot come “ He can only bring us to heaven, not we go by ourselves, then how come Man’s probes have already reached “Heaven” or Saturn ‘s orbit or crashed into it ? can you explain ?

How come out of all the millions of Christians, only you seem to have this idea that Saturn is heaven, why hasn’t God confirmed this through majority of Christians? AGAPE, Trashbin Cat

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Saturn--the third heaven? P/C 1187

Marilyn: The question and doubt remains, "Is the Planet Saturn the third heaven?" May I say to your reader's, "Why not?" Marilyn's insight to the Scriptures are found to be logical, in true science, well founded clues, backed with other written historical records, and, in keeping within the Spirit of God's Word. Marilyn is not claiming to be a prophet. Marilyn's gifting is derived from a long and hard study with acquired discernment through the power of the Holy Spirit and a unnumbered host of individuals sharing their research. Marilyn's published research, findings (thesis), understanding, and opinions are far more realistic than most doctrinal level studies and their thesis' accomplished by all the leading eschatologists put together. Her complete works bear this out.

May I remind your readers that we have a Creative God and that a eye witness of God's Creative powers, an angel, who once said to Mary, "For with God nothing shall be impossible" (Luke 1:37). Like Mary (Mother of Jesus), we should not doubt God's Creative power and to "any possibilities" Our mere mortal finite minds to comprehend God's infinite Creative power and wisdom takes discernment and hard work. We are awarded with wisdom and true faith when we search the scriptures as Marilyn has done both diligently and through time.

While I am no physicist, it is my comprehension that that we are locked and live in a four dimension world while God and the spiritual realm operates in multiple realms of space and time dimensions. Heaven (God's Throne) may just be outside our own space and time dimension. If so, the conditions on Saturn could (all things are possible) to be created to be a "duel natural and spiritual world" beyond both yours and my comprehension. On the other hand, the "spiritual world" can exist in the depths of hell or our current knowledge of Saturn. Marilyn's presumable opinions on Saturn are more than probable and warrant a stronger consideration than an imagination of heaven being zillions of miles away without any strong basis to this opinion. Science has already proven that the universe is moving away from our own sun and earth pointing to the fact that we are at the center of God's eye. Consider the clues as Marilyn has done and remain open and flexible to the revelation of God's Word being opened for us in these last days leading towards the end of the age...D.min. Agape'.

Jesus said unto him, "If thou canst believe (In God), all things are possible to him that believeth (In God). Like wise, Jesus also said, "But take heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." Mark 9:23, 13:23

My reply

Wow! how in the world did I miss that? Thanks bunches for your kind words and for resending. I'm glad I didn't miss it forever. I'm not sure I deserve all that, but it sure is nice to be appreciated. I try hard.

I went to YourSky, and compared the charts for Jesus' Ascension Day, May 19, 30 AD (top picture) and the upcoming anniversary of that day on June 4, 2005 (bottom picture). On both, Saturn is in Gemini, and the Sun is in Taurus.

(Mercury is hiding the Sun symbol in this picture. I also looked at it at 16:00 hours UTC, and they had separated enough to see the Sun.) Psa. 113:4 says, "The LORD is high above all nations, and HIS GLORY ABOVE THE HEAVENS." The plural "heavens" shows that his glory would have to be above at least two heavens. In II Cor. 12:2, Paul was caught up to "the third heaven." That would be above two heavens, just like Saturn is above Mars and Jupiter. Eze. 1:28 says, "As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about (i.e., Saturn's ring system). This was the appearance of the likeness of THE GLORY OF THE LORD."...Agape

Ted Porter's reply, Re: Scoffers on May 5, 2005, 9:41:02 PM +/- 2 seconds Universal Time

Very Interesting. Thanks for the comments.

I had never thought about that Jesus could be referring to his coming Ascension Day as the day no one knew at that time. Also, I know there are people that have figured because of Abib that the calculated Jewish calendar should not have added an extra month this year but I had not heard about Passover needing to be in Aries. In my email I had noted Aries middle and end but not its beginning. Of course it's beginning is on the Spring equinox which is March 20, 2005 at 12:34 UT. Looking at Adar II and making it Nisan with the rule that two Sabbaths can't fall next two each other that would place Nisan 14 starting on the evening of March 23rd which now puts it in Aries. That mean the Jewish First-Fruits and Easter would be the same day. Cool! As the calculated calendar had it, Nisan 14 would start the evening of April 22nd which puts it in the sign of Taurus as that sign starts April 20th. Guess they shouldn't have added an extra month after all. -Thanks. I checked next year and Nisan 14 falls on April 12th which is before April 20th so the calculated calendar has it in Aries correctly. I guess it makes perfect sense as Aries is the lamb sacrificed for the sins of the world and that happened right before Passover.

Anyway, Shalom! And thanks for all the other thoughts as well.
Ted Porter

My reply

I'm sticking with the Official Hebrew Calendar. According to Josephus, The Sun was in Aries on Passover. On Nisan 14, 5765, Passover (April 23, 2005), the Sun is in Aries.

On Adar II 14, Purim (March 25, 2005) the Sun is not in Aries.

Calendar Converter
http://www.ugst.umd.edu/firstyearbook/calendar/
More about the Hebrew Calendar

"The average length of a month is 29.530594 days, extremely close to the mean synodic month (time from new Moon to next new Moon) of 29.530588 days. Such is the accuracy that more than 13,800 years elapse before a single day discrepancy between the calendar's average reckoning of the start of months and the mean time of the new Moon. Alignment with the solar year is better than the Julian calendar, but inferior to the Gregorian. The average length of a year is 365.2468 days compared to the actual solar tropical year (time from equinox to equinox) of 365.24219 days, so the calendar accumulates one day of error with respect to the solar year every 216 years."

To upset the accuracy of one day's error in 216 years by a whole month at one whack would throw the Hebrew Calendar way off. Abib barley must be found on Nisan 16, Firstfruits. The Feast of Firstfruits is not set by when the first Abib barley is found. Crop development changes with the amount of rainfall, temperature, etc. That would not regulate a stable calendar. The Sun and Moon are better regulators.

Shalom and agape, Marilyn

Incoming e-mail Re: Scoffers on May 5, 2005, 9:41:02 PM +/- 2 seconds Universal Time

From: Ted Porter

Thanks. I figured out the discrepancy. You must be using the Sidereal Zodiac while I'm using the Tropical Zodiac. From what I can gather the Sidereal is more lunar based and the Tropical is more solar based.

I did run across something interesting online when I was figuring this out. Apparently the Essenes were using a solar calendar which is different than that of the Pharisee's more lunar based calendar. It is said that one of the charges which was considered a very serious charge brought up against Jesus was that he ate of the Paschal lamb the day before Passover instead of Passover. It is said that in his defense the Galilean's were able to produce written documentation that they were allowed to eat of the Paschal lamb the day before. It is conjectured that this written documentation were the solar calendar tables of the Essenes.

I hadn't ever run across this before. Anyway, mystery solved on our differences. From what I've seen on line most seem to think that the Sidereal and the Tropical are equally valid so can't really argue there. Shalom! Ted Porter

My reply

I'm not using the Tropical Zodiac. As I understand it, the Tropical is the one that is off by one sign, or one month, that is used by astrologers. I try my best to steer clear of astrology. It is forbidden in the Bible. In my mind, I class it with soothsayers, fortune tellers and death by stoning.

In times gone by, the term astrology was sometimes used when we think they should have said astronomy, but in our days, that kind of definition is obsolete. The definition of astrology now is the pseudo science which claims to foretell the future by studying the supposed influence of the relative positions of the Sun, Moon and stars on human affairs. This is forbidden.

Astrology is Satan's work, trying his best to obscure the original meaning of the Zodiac, which was the story of Jesus Christ, starting with his being the seed born of a virgin (Virgo) and ending with him being the King of kings, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Leo).

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God (Aries). That he has two natures is shown in Sagittarius. The Decans of Sagittarius are Draco (Satan), Ara, the altar of sacrifice, and Lyra, which stands for resurrection life. His death and resurrection are also pictured in Capricorn. That curly fish tail stands for resurrection. It is controlled by muscle that is obviously alive. A dead fish does not curl its tail. Take a look at the three Decans of Capricorn. Sagitta is the arrow that suggests killing. Aquilla is dying. Delphinus is obviously alive and curling his tail. In Gemini, the Bridegroom is Christ. We are sitting with him in heavenly places. The lyre the Bride of Christ is holding is a symbol of resurrection life.

Between Gemini, sign of the first Rapture, and Leo, sign of Christ as King of kings, is Cancer, the crab that holds on tightly with two powerful pincers. It represents Heaven as the holding place of those brought to it by the two ships of Argo (I have seen both in ancient drawings of the Zodiac). Both Raptures take place by the time Christ reigns as depicted by Leo. Besides the Decan of Argo, the other Decans of Cancer are the Greater and Minor Sheepfolds. We are the sheep, and there are two Raptures. The Minor Sheepfold stands for those of the First Rapture. The Greater Sheepfold includes the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude that cannot be numbered of Rev. 7:1-9,14. Jesus ends up as the Lion (Leo) of the tribe of Judah, the great King of Kings.

According to things told us by Josephus in Ant. I. II. 3, Adam and Seth drew up the Zodiac. Adam was a prophet, taught by the Lord, and the Zodiac was drawn by the inspiration of God. Josephus wrote of "Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire, and at another time by the violence and quantity of water." Imagine him knowing that in those early days. The Zodiac was God's picturebook of things to come before there were any scriptures.

To help tell this story, God named the stars. Psa. 147:4 says, "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names." Since God named the stars, there cannot be anything wrong in looking up the meanings of their names. They carry on the story he wanted to tell. For instance, Canopus, one of the stars in Argo, means THE POSSESSION OF HIM WHO COMETH. Another, Markab, means RETURNING FROM AFAR. Sephina means THE MULTITUDE. Amidiska, means THE RELEASED WHO TRAVEL. Soheil means THE DESIRED. Subilion means THE BRANCH (i.e., Christ, the one who cometh). It is a fascinating study.

Josephus mentioned "the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets" in an interesting section (Ant. III. VII. 7). He wrote, "...consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our secred ministration (he was a Pharisee priest), he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others: for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of IMITATION AND REPRESENTATION OF THE UNIVERSE. When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but HE SET APART THE THIRD DIVISION FOR GOD, BECAUSE HEAVEN IS INACCESSIBLE TO MEN. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, HE SECRETLY INTIMATED THE DECANI, OR SEVENTY DIVISIONS OF THE PLANETS; AND AS TO THE SEVEN LAMPS UPON THE CANDLESTICKS, THEY REFERRED TO THE COURSE OF THE PLANETS, OF WHICH THAT IS THE NUMBER (in another place, he said the Sun was included, so the lamps are the Sun and naked-eye planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)....And for the twelve stones (in the Breastplate), whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of THE SIGNS OF THAT CIRCLE WHICH THE GREEKS CALL THE ZODIAC, WE SHALL NOT BE MISTAKEN IN THEIR MEANING."

In Wars V. V. 5, Josephus said of the candlestick and shewbread, "Now the SEVEN LAMPS SIGNIFIED THE SEVEN PLANETS; for so many there were springing out of the candlestick. Now, THE TWELVE LOAVES that were upon the table SIGNIFIED THE CIRCLE OF THE ZODIAC AND THE YEAR."

Astronomy is ok. It is the science which studies the heavenly bodies. It does not get into fortune telling. The charts I sent you are from the astronomy site, YourSky: http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Yoursky Their charts can show us the actual sky as seen from Jerusalem at a certain hour on a certain date.

Concerning the first chart, I said, "I'm sticking with the Official Hebrew Calendar. According to Josephus, The Sun was in Aries on Passover. On Nisan 14, 5765, Passover (April 23, 2005), the Sun is in Aries." It actually is in Aries in real time.

Concerning the second chart, I said, "On Adar II 14, Purim (March 25, 2005) the Sun is not in Aries." It is not in Aries in real time on that date, according to astronomers.

The dates astrologers assign to the signs of the Tropical Zodiac seem to be the ones that are wrong by one sign because they have not adjusted it since its inception. It got off because of the precession of the equinoxes.

Because of the precession of the equinoxes, the right ascension and declination of objects in the sky change very slowly over a 26,000 year period. In my Kerrod's Star Guide Glossary, the definition of precession is "A slow change in the direction in which the Earth's axis points in space, which over the years alters the positions of the stars on the celestial sphere." The two equinoxes, when day and night are equal, are approximately March 21, the spring equinox, and September 23, the fall equinox. At those times, the Sun is directly over the equator. At all other times, it is either above or below the equator. The north pole star has even changed. It used to be Thuban. Now it is Polaris.

> > It is said that one of the charges which was considered a very serious charge brought up against Jesus was that he ate of the Paschal lamb the day before Passover instead of Passover. It is said that in his defense the Galilean's were able to produce written documentation that they were allowed to eat of the Paschal lamb the day before. It is conjectured that this written documentation were the solar calendar tables of the Essenes.

That's interesting. I'd like to know more about that. I hope you can steer me in the right direction.

I'm sure glad you brought up Ascension Day. Someone else had asked me what about Ascension Day, but with all my computer troubles, I lost that email before I could really put my mind to it. When I got yours, I got that flash about the day and hour of Ascension Day couldn't have been known during Passion Week, when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse. In Mt. 24:26, Jesus said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

It makes sense that we would ascend on the anniversary of the day that the head of the Body of Christ ascended. Another thing is interesting. Soon after Jesus made that statement, he gave the midnight clue in the parable of the 10 virgins. There was no chapter division in the Olivet Discourse. Sometimes that chapter change can be misleading. The connection between Mt. 24:51 and 25:1 is continuous. We need to read it without the break. It is all part of the Olivet Discourse.

Mat 24:48 says, "But and if that EVIL SERVANT (i.e., a foolish virgin) shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant (the foolish one) shall come in a DAY when he looketh not for him, and in an HOUR that he is not aware of, 51 And shall CUT HIM ASUNDER (lit., cut him off), and appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 25:1 Then (tote, AT THE SAME TIME) shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish....6 And at MIDNIGHT there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."

Luke 12:46 is similar to Mt. 24:51. Luke 12:46,47 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise, foolish believer) will come in a DAY when he looketh not for him, and at an HOUR when he is not aware, and will CUT HIM IN SUNDER (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him (the foolish believer) his (the foolish believer's) portion (the shortened Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. And that servant (carnal believer), which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

Luke 12:46 (Geneva) says, "The master of that seruant will come in a day when he thinketh not, and at an houre when he is not ware of, and will CUT HIM OFF, and giue him his portion with the vnbeleeuers."

Because the carnal believer can be left behind during this portion with the unbelievers, it is imperitive that believers make sure their sins are all under the blood of Christ now. The old sins were taken away when we accepted Christ. We got a new start. Now we must let Christ wash our feet, use I John 1:9, confess our sins committed after accepting Christ so the Lord can forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 13:8,10 says, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me....Jesus saith to him (Peter), He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit."

Now, we will get another Pope. Rev. 17:10 says, "there are seven kings: five are fallen (kings of Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome), and ONE IS". This 6th king is the leader of Ecclesiatical Rome, the Pope. I take it that when the Rapture takes place, the Tribulation Pope will already be in office. We can know who he is and understand that he will be left behind at the Rapture. Rev. 20:10 says that "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are". This shows that neither of these last two heads of the great red dragon will be saved. We will not know for sure who the 7th king will be. He will be revealed when he sits in the temple Mid-Trib.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written from the vantage point of the Rapture. In Rev. 17:14, the Rapture has just taken place. It says that the Lamb "is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM, are called, and chosen, and faithful." We want to be in that group. Agape


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