Pro and Con 1204

Posted 5-8-05

The Moon

...Other effects of the lunar tides are to slow the rotation of the Earth and to increase the size of the lunar orbit. The Moon therefore formed much closer to the Earth than its current position. It is now believed that the Moon was created by re-accretion of fragments resulting from a collision between the Earth and one body the size of Mars, in the last phases of the formation of the Solar System. That could explain why the average density of the Moon is closer to the density of the Earth's mantle....

My reply to a post on 5 Doves site

Re: Ruth Redeemed by Boaz NEAR Pentecost? (i.e., on Ascension Day)
Deborah (2 May 2005)
"Enoch raptured ON Pentecost - Ruth Redeemed by Boaz on/near Pentecost?"

Enoch might have been raptured on Pentecost, but that tidbit could have been planted by the adversary to throw us off. Ruth's story is in Scripture. That is what we can go by.

> > Rth 3:2 And now [is] not Boaz of our kindred, with whose maidens thou wast? Behold, he winnoweth barley to night in the threshing floor.
> > Rth 3:8 And it came to pass at midnight, that the man was afraid, and turned himself: and, behold, a woman lay at his feet.
> > Pentecost is a Sabbath when no work could be done, so the day that Boaz was winnowing his barley certainly could not have been the actual Pentecost holiday....but certainly Boaz was involved in the harvest of his first fruits of the season of both wheat and barley according to Ruth 2:23. So, I suspect that Ruth asked for her Redemption of Boaz very near Pentecost.

Good point, Deborah, one I had not thought of before. The night when Ruth lay at the feet of Boaz, after he had been winnowing barley, would NOT be one of the 7 feast days, because they were all annual Sabbaths, days of rest. Ascension Day is 10 days before Pentecost. It is a Sabbath Day in 2005, but it doesn't always fall on Saturday.

Boaz gave Ruth 6 measures of barley. The wise virgins seem to be symbolized by Ruth and her 6 measures of barley. Why 6 measures? Six, the number of man, created on the 6th day, is short of 7, the number of God, completion and perfection. The foolish virgins will be left behind at the first Rapture, so the complete number of the saved awaits the Second Rapture.

It's interesting that MIDNIGHT is mentioned in both Ruth 3:8 and Mt. 25:6. Midnight seems to be the HOUR of the Rapture. Maybe Ascension Day is the DAY of the Rapture.

> > Deu 16:9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from [such time as] thou beginnest [to put] the sickle to the corn....Blue Letter Bible.

The Jews BEGAN to put the sickle to the corn on the Feast of Firstfruits (Nisan 16). Numbering the omer FROM that day means that the first day is Nisan 17. The 50th day, Pentecost, is on Sivan 7. Ten days before that is Ascension Day, Iyar 26 (June 4 in 2005)..

The Six-Day War of 1967 was the Sign of the End of the Age. Nineteen years old (the last year she could be called young), Israel grew leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, Golan Heights and West Bank) and fulfilled the Fig Tree Parable of Mt. 24:32-34. The war started on June 5, Iyar 26, 5752.

If we add the 38 years of John 5:5 to Iyar 26, 5752, we get Iyar 26, 5765--ASCENSION DAY, 2005. That could be the DAY no man knew when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse two days before the Crucifixion (Mt. 24:36).

We can see other types. Jdg 16:3 says, "Samson lay till MIDNIGHT, AND AROSE AT MIDNIGHT, and took the DOORS (symbol of the Rapture, Mt. 24:32-34; Rev. 3:8; 4:1) of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and went away with them, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of an hill that is before Hebron" (meaning alliance). The first Rapture comes before the alliance of Dan. 9:27. Psa 119:62 says, "AT MIDNIGHT I WILL RISE to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments." Agape

Incoming email, Re: Khouse just wrote an article that may further back up your 38 year theory.. AND IM EXCITED !!!!


Just sending you this link, as its another way to confirm the 38 years, don’t know if you’ve looked at the Olivet discourse this way before but if you haven’t it has cleared up many conflicts I've had with the 3 passages…. AND IM EXCITED!!!!! This could well be the year……

By the way I’ve been a reader of your site for a while now and love reading about your ideas on timing... one of the few sites that even condone the practice, but I find just searching for a possible date is well worth the effort when you find little treasures like this one…

My reply

Thanks for your kind words, and for sending this URL

However, I see no proof of the 38 years assumed in the article. Chuck Missler may think that the Crucifixion was in 32 AD. I think it was in 30 AD.

Eze. 4:6 says, "thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days, I have appointed thee each day for a year." To me, these 40 years run from 30 AD (the Crucifixion) to 70 AD (the destruction of the temple).

I did a lot of work on the day of the Crucifixion. That's putting it mildly. I spent years on it, and read everything I could turn up on the subject in BIOLA library's Seminary Collection. I even read old handwritten manuscripts from the 17th century in their Rare Books section. Herod began rebuilding the temple in BC 20/19. It had been under construction for 46 years at the first Passover of Jesus' ministry, in 27 AD. I don't see how anyone can stretch this to get to a 32 AD Crucifixion.

Josephus said, "And now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God" (Ant. XV. XI. 1).

Herod's Temple
"The work of rebuilding the Temple began in 19 BC which was the 18th year of King Herod’s reign". Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Psalm 38

I was looking at the number 38 after it was brought up in P & C 1201. Consider that the stories of healing in all four gospels and by the apostles in Acts all follow a similar pattern that mimics a first fruits rapture. These verses point directly at Christ’s purification of a blind, deaf, paralyzed and infected sinful mankind. That sin has rendered us disabled and unable to see, hear and move toward the exit. Through His forgiveness of sin, the forgiven man is now able to move and told to go home and sin no more. Move toward the exit, a door opens the gate into heaven. (our real eternal home)

Matt 9:2 a paralytic ( a sinner ) your sin is forgiven ( a door to heaven is opened ) Matt 9:5 get up, walk( the rapture )
Matt 9:6 Again “Get up ( rapture ), take your matt and go home ( heaven ).
Matt 9:7 got up and went home ( heaven )
Matt 9:8 the crowd saw this (the visable rapture that many people will see and believe) and were filled with awe ( amazed )
Matt 12:10 Healing on the Sabbath (forgiving sin) sheep ( His children are His sheep)
Matt 12:11 sheep lifted out ( raptured ) Matt 12:12 Lord of the Sabbath (the rapture)
Mark 2:3 paralytic ( sinner ) sins forgiven (a door to heaven is opened)
Mark 2:4 made an opening ( a door to heaven )
Mark 2:10 go home ( heaven ) Mark 2:12 people amazed
Mark 8:34 Be opened (the door to home) Heaven (go home) people overwhelmed and amazed.
Mark 8:23 pillars,(24 elders, Trees), outside the village (out of a fallen world of sin) a rapture.
Mark 8:26 sent home (heaven) don’t go back into the village. (the fallen world of sin)
Luke 5:24 Home ( heaven ) Luke 5:25 Home ( heaven )
John 5:2 colonnades ( pillars, 24 elders ) the blind, the lame, the paralyzed ( sinful mankind barred entrance to heaven
John 9:7 Home ( heaven )

> >Ascension Day, Iyar 26, 5765, our June 4, 2005, will be on the Sabbath.

It sure follows a pattern set in the Gospels for us to find throughout the New Testament.

> >Jesus healed on the Sabbath several times. For instance, John 9:14 says, "it was the SABBATH day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." The blind will see, and the crippled will walk, on the day of the Rapture.
> >Thirty-eight years is mentioned two places, in De. 2:14 and John 5:5. De. 2:14,24 says, "the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea (meaning holiness of the grain), until we were come over the brook Zered (meaning east), was THIRTY AND EIGHT YEARS; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them....RISE YE UP, TAKE YOUR JOURNEY, and pass over the river Arnon (swift)." When they broke camp, they would take up their beds and walk.

> >"RISE YE UP, TAKE YOUR JOURNEY ( walk )" may symbolize the Rapture of the barley (i.e., the Bride of Christ) when the fields are white (John 4:35) with ripe grain on Ascension Day, a Sabbath.

> >Ex. 24:16-18. It says, "the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it SIX DAYS (Sivan 1-6): and the SEVENTH DAY (SIVAN 7) he CALLED UNTO MOSES out of the midst of the cloud. And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. And MOSES WENT INTO THE MIDST OF THE CLOUD, AND GAT HIM UP INTO THE MOUNT: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights."
Which could be 38 days and nights by inclusive recogning.

> >From the time that the Israelites were numbered to their crossing into the promised land was 38 years. De. 2:14 says, "And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them."

> >Thirty eight years from June, 1967, when the temple mount was taken, and later refused, brings us to June, 2005.
> >Oh Israel, ye of little faith, the Lord gave you the temple mount.

Israel, was paralyzed with fear, or sin as they don’t know or recognize Jesus as Lord.

Why couldn't you trust him to also keep it for you? The Israeli flag only flew over the mount 4 hours. On June 17, 1967, the Sabbath after taking the mount in the Six-Day War, Moshe Dayan turned over the administration of the mount to the Muslim Waqf. In August, he gave jurisdiction of the mount to them.

> >When the spies returned from spying out the promised land, the people refused to go in and possess the land. They were afraid of the giants.

In our days, Israel refused to go in ( paralyzed with fear, or sin as they don’t know or recognize Jesus as Lord) and possess the temple area after a few had gone in. What were they afraid of this time? the Arabs they had just beaten in war?

No, Israel has not been forgiven she is paralyzed with fear, or sin as they don’t know or recognize Jesus as Lord.

> >In the early days, Israelites wandered in the desert another 38 years before they crossed over into the promised land. In our days, it looks like we have had to wait another 38 years after 1967 before the Rapture takes us to another promised land, Heaven.

It was all played out for us beforehand (in the miraculous miricles written in the Gospels), if we had just been able to recognize how it all tied together. Agape

My reply

Thanks. I have been meaning to look for more on these things when I got time.

Psa 38 is when King David finally confessed his sin that had gone unconfessed for a year. That is what the Bride of Christ needs to do before the Rapture. In Psa. 38:18, David said, "I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin." I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Then we are wise virgins wearing white wedding garments.

Below is a list of dates for Ascension Days, Iyar 26 on the Hebrew Calendar. Only one is in June. Only 2001, 2005 and 2008 are on the SABBATH. The only one on the Sabbath and in June is June 4, 2005. This is also the year Israel had ripe barley early.

We are symbolized by the barley, and this is a good year for barley. In John 4:35, Jesus said, "Say not ye, There are yet FOUR MONTHS (Sivan, Tamuz, Av, and Elul), and then cometh HARVEST? (Tishri 1, date of Pre-Wrath Rapture) behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest." He said this in 4:35. In 5:1, Pentecost was near. Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. He healed the man who "had an infirmity THIRTY AND EIGHT YEARS" (5:5) on the "SABBATH" (5:9). Jesus told the man to "RISE, TAKE UP THY BED, AND WALK" (5:8).

The Six-Day War started on ASCENSION DAY (Iyar 26) June 5, 1967. Adding 38 years brings us to Iyar 26, 5765 (June 4, 2005). It is a June Sabbath. The Pre-Trib Rapture is for the Bride of Christ. June is known as the month for weddings--a good fit.

5758 - Friday, May 22, 1998
5759 - Wednesday, May 12, 1999
5760 - Wednesday, May 31, 2000 - Leap Year
5761 - SATURDAY, May 19, 2001
5762 - Wednesday, May 8, 2002
5763 - Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - Leap Year
5764 - Monday, May 17, 2004
5765 - SATURDAY, JUNE 4, 2005
5766 - Wednesday, May 24, 2006
5767 - Monday, May 14, 2007
5768 - SATURDAY, May 31, 2008 - Leap Year
5769 - Wednesday, May 20, 2009
5770 - Monday, May 10, 1010
5771 - Monday, May 30, 2011 - Leap Year
5772 - Friday, May 18, 2012
5773 - Monday, May 6, 2013
5774 - Monday, May 26, 2014 - Leap Year
5775 - Friday, May 15, 2015


My reply to a post on 5 Doves site

Arlene (3 May 2005)
..."6th-seal earthquake mid-tribulation rapture "...
> > Nathaniel was an Israelite, and had no guile. Therefore, he is a “type” of one of the 144,000 Israelites who will be sealed after the 6th-SEAL EARTHQUAKE MID-TRIBULATION RAPTURE of the un-numberable host seen in heaven. (emphasis mine)

Mid-Trib Rapture AFTER the 6th seal? That sounds impossible. After the 6th seal is broken in Rev. 6:12, "the great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). To me, the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath is not Mid-Trib; it is 7 months before the Second Advent.

God's Wrath is in Eze. 38:18-20. The 7 months are in Eze. 39:12,13.

Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea); So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake (the worldwide earthquake destroys the 'cities of the nations' (Rev. 16:18,19) at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky), and the mountains (including the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground."

Eze 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent when Christ comes in glory), saith the Lord GOD." The seven months are: Tishri, Cheshvan, Kislev, Teveth, Shevat, Adar I, and Adar II, so it is a Leap Year with the 13th month.

I think the year will be the Hebrew Leap Year of 5771. The Day of God's Wrath seems to be Tishri 1, 5771 (Sept. 9, 2010) and the Second Advent Nisan 1, 5771 (April 5, 2011). Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain starts on Tishri 1, and the latter rain starts on Nisan 1, the first day of both the Hebrew Regnal and the Sacred Year.

Eze, 29:17, 21 says, "in the FIRST MONTH (Nisan) in the FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH (Nisan 1), the word of the LORD came unto me...IN THAT DAY (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king, i.e., Christ the LORD) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, John 1:1-3) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place in the night or morning before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 hit Earth at noon. Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the FIERCE ANGER OF THE LORD come upon you, before THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (i.e., by being raptured) IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."

My conclusion. I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture and God's wrath will happen on the same day, Sept. 9, 2010 (Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. I feel sure that neither will take place Mid-Trib. Agape

From 5 Doves site, Re: It would seem the resurrected would be with us for the 40 days

Deborah (6 May 2005)
"Stephen Martin re: Resurrection/ Rapture"

The problem that I am having with dates that are close at hand is that their have not been any reports of the resurrection. The pattern is the "Dead in Christ" rise first.. It would seem they would be with us for the 40 days before the Ascension as Christ and the others were. Stephen Martin
Stephen, The Dead in Christ are already in Heaven! "Absent from the body, PRESENT with the Lord." Jesus said to the thief on the cross next Him, "TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE." I don't think Jesus lied. The minute/second we die, we are instantly in the presence of God. Only those who are remain alive, must wait until the rapture.....for the Dead in Christ ALWAYS precede us, for they are already there! Maranatha! Deborah

My reply

> > It would seem they would be with us for the 40 days before the Ascension as Christ and the others were.

I don't think those who came out of the graves on Resurrection Day were around for 40 days. Jesus took them to Heaven on Resurrection Day. Then he returned to be with the disciples for 40 days before he ascended again.

> > Jesus said to the thief on the cross next Him, "TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE."

"Today" was Thursday, Nisan 13, the Preparation of the Passover. On that very day, they both visited Paradise, which at that time was in the Earth. It was also called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22). Jesus may have told the people in Paradise what was going to happen to them after three days and three nights (Thursday, day; Friday, night then day; Saturday, night then day; and Sunday, night).

On Sunday, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" (Mt. 27:52,63).

That very day, Jesus went to Heaven and returned to Earth. In the morning after the Resurrection, Jesus told Mary Magdalene, "TOUCH ME NOT FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17). Later in the day, after returning to Earth, Jesus could be touched.

Luke 24:36-39 says, "Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: HANDLE ME, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Psa 68:18 says, "Thou (the LORD) hast ASCENDED ON HIGH, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them."

In Eph 4:8-10, "he saith, When HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. " (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST INTO THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Since Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven on Resurrection Day, it seems fitting that he take the Bride of Christ to Heaven on Ascension Day.

> > > the Dead in Christ ALWAYS precede us, for they are already there!

On the day of the Rapture, Jesus will bring all the saints that are in Heaven with him. They will get their resurrection bodies. Then we will rise with them to meet Christ in the air (I Thess. 4:13-18). Agape

From 5 Doves site

Gielah Qara' (5 May 2005)
"Re Marilyn Agee: Gaza forsaken!....!!"

I want to thank Marilyn Agee, for in her story of May 4th she gives a new insight regarding the Gaza-pull-out...
The Lord says clearly in Amos 9:14 and 15:
"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."
We are all praying and praying, that these people of Gush Katif (Gaza) can stay on their land and in their homes, for the Lord Himself promised that they are allowed to stay there and live in safety and that no one, heathen or Jew, shall ever uproot them.
But now I am reading this article, wherein Marilyn quotes Zeph. 2:1-5, where it says about the day of the Lord's anger:
" For Gaza shall be forsaken and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up.
Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast."
And I am thinking: is what Sharon is planning a párt of G.d's scenario?
Is he, without knowing why - for he is not a believer - bringing the people of Israel in safety, before some catastrophe hits that area?
Will the Lord judge Israel's enemies - thePalestinians - after they have taken Israel's homes and lands and will G.d's people get their possessions back after that disaster? As you can read: I am not at all sure what to think, but I ám thinking very hard! Can anybody give some more light on this question?
Meanwhile, shalom to you all! Gielah Qara'

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

Re: will G.d's people get their possessions back after that disaster?

After Jesus returns, land, yes. Other possessions, maybe, maybe not. Every wall will fall worldwide (Eze. 38:20). The cities of the nations will fall (Rev. 16:18,19). However, Jesus will refresh the Earth. Man will be tried under a perfect King and a perfect invironment--and some will still fail to pass their test. Agape

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