Pro and Con 1216
Incoming e-mail, Re: Inclusive Counting
You most likely have seen this article from ELMartin; but, I'll send it along just in case.
It addresses the inclusive reckoning of time and days and has several specific points from his analysis and the word of Christ that may (or may not) differ from what you are saying. As you know the current Jewish calendar has Shavuoth on June 13th (evening 12-13 evening) meaning ascension would be evening Jun 2-3.
The Case for a Thursday Crucifixion, by Ernest L. Martin, May 1, 2001
We in our modern world often count things differently. Our American and British way of rendering such things is to exclude the day from which we start. Since Luke said that late Sunday afternoon was the “third day,” then our first day back would lead us to Saturday; the second day back, to a Friday; and the third day back, to a Thursday. Or, if the normal Jewish and Greek method of reckoning is used (which almost always included the day from whence one started counting), then the first day for reckoning was the very day during which the disciples talked to Christ; the second day back would have been Saturday; and the third day back, a Friday. This may seem like an odd way of counting ordinal numbers, but this is clearly the manner which biblical personalities preferred. And even Christ himself gave such a reckoning. He said:
“Go you, and tell that fox [Herod Antipas], Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk today, and tomorrow, and the day following.”
To Christ, the “third day” was the day after tomorrow so this means he counted the day on which he made his statement as the first day. This is the common Jewish mode of inclusive dating of events. (We will discuss the relevance of inclusive reckoning as having priority over our western view of using an exclusive method, later in this article.) But no matter if one takes the “third day” of Luke 24:20 inclusively or exclusively, the phrase could not possibly reach back to a Wednesday from that Sunday afternoon. The case for the Wednesday theory is shipwrecked by this biblical indication alone....
In 30 C.E. it was assumed (until recent computer evaluations of the appearance of the moon in March, 30 C.E.) that Friday, April 7th was the day of Nisan 14, but it is now known that the astronomy favors Thursday, April 6th. 5 In 30 C.E. the only weekdays possible were a Thursday (if astronomy and the “three days and three nights” of Matthew 12:40 are taken into account) or a Friday if inclusive reckoning is used....
The next point that needs to be mentioned is very important to the issue, and this may help us to see a Thursday crucifixion as the answer. That concerns the statement of Christ that he would remain in the tomb for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). In no way can one figure that interval of time (if taken literally) as being from Friday afternoon to the dawn of Sunday.
The possibility of such a Thursday crucifixion being true is not a new-fangled idea. A major article appeared in the journal Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 27 (1870), pp. 401–429, titled The Crucifixion on Thursday – Not Friday by J.K. Aldrich. Shortly after this, Professor Westcott of Britain in his An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels (Cambridge: 1881), pp. 343–349, also maintained that Thursday was the day. Recently, primarily based on new astronomical data. Roger Rusk, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Tennessee, has revived the Thursday theory (Christianity Today, March 29, 1974).
The astronomical indications are powerful for a Thursday. These evidences have convinced me that the case needs to be reopened for investigation. When Professor J.K. Fotheringham in The Journal of Theological Studies vol. 35 (1934), pp. 146–162 brought out the astronomical data for the appearance of the new moon for Nisan (as they related to Jerusalem), he opted for a Friday crucifixion date for 30 C.E. But he mentioned that Professor Gerhardt had contacted Professor Neugebauer, of the Astronomisches Recheninstitut at Berlin, and calculations showed that it would have been barely possible for the crescent of the new moon to have been seen a day earlier (p. 159).
With new computer printouts of the astronomical occurrences of the new moons for Babylon and Jerusalem, it appears almost certain that the moon would definitely have been seen a day earlier. 7
Though all of this may appear technical (and, of course, it is), it still remains clear that the crescent of the new moon for Nisan in 30 C.E. could have been seen a day earlier than that suggested by Fotheringham before the advent of advanced computer print-outs. If this is so, then in 30 C.E. 8 Nisan 14 would certainly have occurred on a Thursday (actually it would have begun at sundown on the previous evening to accord with Jewish usage for the beginning of days)....
If Thursday has good credentials, then this is how the historical scenario would run:
Christ died about 3 p.m. on Thursday (Nisan 14).
At sundown commenced the annual holyday called the First Day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15), see John 19:31.
The next evening at sundown would have occurred the weekly Sabbath so that there were in 30 C.E. two Sabbaths in tandem to one another.
Then after those two Sabbaths or, as Matthew puts it, at the end of the sabbaths (plural, and in this case to be reckoned as two Sabbaths in tandem), the priests and Pharisees posted the guard and put mortar around the stone, effectively sealing it to the rock escarpment (Matthew 28:1a).
About 12 hours later, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, the stone was rolled away by angels and Christ emerged, now resurrected from the dead (Matthew 28:1b).
This reckoning allows the “three days and three nights” of Matthew 12:40 to be a literal fact (using the inclusive count for the first day). It would also satisfy the “after three days” (Matthew 27:63) as literal (using again the inclusive for the first day). And, most importantly, it dovetails exactly with the new astronomical data that are pointing squarely to a Thursday for Nisan 14.
The only major difficulty to the whole scheme is “the third day” of Luke 24:21, which if used in the normal inclusive fashion seems to reach back only to Friday. If one, however, accepts an exclusive reckoning in this special case, then the first day back from that Sunday afternoon would have been Sabbath afternoon, the second day back would have been Friday, and the third day back would, obviously, be a Thursday afternoon. If Luke abandoned his normal inclusive usage in Luke 24:21, then all the accounts in the biblical records appear compatible. But, it must be admitted, that the inclusive manner predominates in Luke’s writings....
My reply> >
As you know the current Jewish calendar has Shavuoth on June 13th (evening 12-13 evening) meaning ascension would be evening Jun 2-3.
Yes. Isn't it strange that somewhere along the line the unbelieving Jews put on their calendar "Pesach" (Passover) on NISAN 15 and left out Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits? In their bias against Yeshua, they didn't even go by Lev. 23:5. The KJV says, "In the FOURTEENTH day of the first month AT EVEN is the LORD'S passover."
"AT EVEN" is when Nisan 14 arrives at 6 PM on Nisan 13. They had to eat the Passover lamb before midnight, just 6 hours later, on the 14th. That's the only midnight that belongs to Nisan 14. Concerning the Day of Atonement, Tishri 10, Lev. 23:32 says, "It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: IN THE NINTH DAY OF THE MONTH AT EVEN, FROM EVEN UNTO EVEN, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." Each Jewish day starts at 6 PM on the preceeding date.
Bias can be seen the Jewish Stone edition Tanach, Lev. 23:5 says, "In the first month on the FOURTEENTH of the month IN THE AFTERNOON is the time of the pesach-offering to HASHEM." That doesn't even agree with their JPL, which says, "In the first month, on the FOURTEENTH day of the month AT DUSK, is the LORD'S passover." Midnight on the 14th has already passed by the afternoon. In Egypt, the death angel came at midnight. If they hadn't put the blood of the sacrificed lamb on the door posts on the even when the 14th arrived, their firstborn would have all been dead men.
ELM: Or, if the normal Jewish and Greek method of reckoning is used (which almost always included the day from whence one started counting)
I enjoy reading Martin, because he did a lot of research and really tried hard to resolve a matter, but I don't think he got it right about when the Jews used inclusive reckoning and when they didn't. It took me a long time to sort it out. Blocks of time are figured by inclusive reckoning. Otherwise, non-inclusive running time is used. On that, it is easy to keep our heads straight, because it is exactly what we are used to.
If Thursday has good credentials, then this is how the historical scenario would run:
Christ died about 3 p.m. on Thursday (Nisan 14).
At sundown commenced the annual holyday called the First Day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15), see John 19:31.
Thursday was "the preparation of the passover" (John 19:14). Therefore the Passover was Friday. Unleavened Bread was Saturday, and Firstfruits was on Sunday, the first day of the week.
The only major difficulty to the whole scheme is “the third day” of Luke 24:21, which if used in the normal inclusive fashion seems to reach back only to Friday. If one, however, accepts an exclusive reckoning in this special case, then the first day back from that Sunday afternoon would have been Sabbath afternoon, the second day back would have been Friday, and the third day back would, obviously, be a Thursday afternoon.
This is one of the few places where Martin sounded confused, but he confused himself by wondering if he should use inclusive reckoning. The third day since is running time, easily understood by using common sense and not trying to complicate it.
Luke 24:21 says, "today (Sunday) is the third day SINCE (apo) these things are done. "The 1st day since Thursday would be Friday. The 2nd day since would be Saturday. The 3rd day since would be Sunday. It fits beautifully.
Apo ("SINCE") is a primary article meaning off, that is away from something near, separation, departure, after. In Luke 24:21, it is simple. Sunday was the third day after the Crucifixion on Thursday. Friday was the first day afterward. Saturday was the second day afterward. Sunday was the third day afterward.
It is the same way when some look at Mt. 12:40. There is no use making it hard when it is simple to understand. We must just let it say what it says. As "Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH." It was Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day), and Sunday night--three days and three nights, beginning with day as stated.
It is the same with Luke 13:32. It is plain. Today means today. We shouldn't make it hard. Jesus "said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures TO DAY (Tuesday) and TO MORROW (Wednesday), and the THIRD DAY (Thursday) I shall be perfected."
When the plain sense fits, we should take it as meaning what it says. People didn't stop in the middle of a normal day-by-day conversation to think whether or not to use inclusive reckoning. Leave that for blocks of time as in Acts 7:6: "God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil FOUR HUNDRED YEARS." That separates the block from running time, and would be understood as inclusive. In statements like that, we aren't given the day before or the day after to enable us to connect it to running time. In this statement, the 400-year block stands alone. It is figured by inclusive reckoning. Agape
Thank you so much for your work. Interesting that during this time, Las Vegas is celebrating their 100th birthday party (it started May 15), and June 4th is "Gay Day" at Orlando's Disney World. http://www.gaydays.com/ . Perhaps readers with more time to search or knowledge may come up with other interesting "coincidences". Agape
You're welcome, and thanks for your kind words.
"Gay Day" sure fits the coming Tribulation, the trial that will come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. Luke 17:29 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." That won't be fun day. Agape
Incoming e-mail, Re: Tribulation Pope
Thank you for your kind response. I agree with you that the Bible is the ultimate and only reliable source on prophecy and I believe God has placed people like yourself to help clarify and interpret it for others, such as myself. I am so thankful that you have been a faithful servant of God's word and I so look forward to reading your insightful pros and cons, especially in these last days. I've just finished reading Hal Lindsey's 4/2/05, commentary on the Pope and I was amazed at the first hand account reported by a former priest, Piers Compton in his book "The Broken Cross-The Hidden Hand of the Vatican." I did a search and was able to read excerpts from the book online, but it has been reported that the book is mysteriously out of circulation. If what has been reported so far about the Illuminati influence on the Vatican is true, I don't know how a future Pope would be raptured, especially since John Paul II had appointed the majority of the age eligible voting Cardinals. I think things are rapidly falling into place and think June 4th, could be a logical day, since the College of Cardinals begin choosing the new Pope on April 18th. Keep up the good work, I know your website is time consuming and has its demands, but there are readers out there that appreciate and pray for you. God Bless!
I appreciate your kind words, and thank you, and others, so much for your prayers for me and my family. My skeptical brother finally accepted Christ wholeheartedly. What a wonderful day that was. The just shall walk by faith, not sight. For most of his life, he only believed in what he could see. This life is our test, and the Bible is our manual to make it possible to pass our test. Christ is our only Saviour, and he is both God and man. He was both Lord of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament.
Here are some web sites with interesting information on The Broken Cross, by Piers Compton. You may have found these, but others might be interested too.
(I think this
picture is Pope John Paul II. I have seen a picture of the new Pope
Benedict holding up the Bent Cross too, a bad sign.)
Makow - Is the Pope a Catholic?
'The Broken Cross' by Piers Compton
By Henry Makow, PhD
...On Nov. 27, 1983 Pope John Paul II issued a Papal Bull that legalized secret society membership for Roman Catholics. ...
We need to ask ourselves why.
The Broken Cross
the Hidden Hand in the Vatican
by Piers Compton, 1984
The History of Cardinal Roncalli's initiation into Rosicrucian Masonry in 1935
The expose from his book tells us of the initiation of “Cardinal” Roncalli into Rosicrucian Masonry. Roncalli was the same cleric who later in the 1958 Conclave, snatched the Chair of Peter by the devious assistance of the B’nai B’rith, the Jewish Masonic arm that controls all the instruments of world power today. The seal of the Conclave was broken by their agent in the person of Cardinal Tisserant of France.
It is also interesting to note that since Roncalli falsely stole the Chair of Peter, a very large number of Cardinals have also been exposed as secret Masons....
BROKEN CROSS: HIDDEN HAND IN THE VATICAN - BOOK REVIEW FOR THE COMING NEW WORLD ORDER
By David Bay
Piers Compton is the former editor of a Catholic newspaper, "The Universe". In this book, he traces the alleged infiltration of the Roman church by the Illuminati. Of course, the Illuminati refers to those who are active in moving the world into the Satanic New World Order. Several authors, whom we have quoted here, have reported that the Roman Catholic Church is heavily involved in providing both spiritual and political leadership in this effort. We have heard Pope John Paul II preaching many of the themes of the New World Order and actively leading the world wide Ecumenical Movement, to the point of sharing the church podium with representatives of pagan religions. We have also reported to you the conclusions of Malachi Martin, a former Jesuit and professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute, in his book, "The Keys Of This Blood", where he boldly states that Pope John Paul II is leading the world spiritually into the New World Order.
But, we have never had any former insider confirming what other authors have stated, that the Roman Catholic Papacy has been infiltrated and taken over by the Illuminati. Piers Compton is that man. He is a traditional and still practicing Catholic, who has written this book as a protest against the Catholic Church for its abandonment of its traditional teachings on Christian truth. This book details these recent changes.
"There is a feeling abroad that our civilization is in deadly peril. It is a recent awareness, wholly distinct from the old evangelical fears that the world, in keeping with some Biblical prophecy, is coming to an end...For civilization declines when reason is turned upside down, when the mean and based, the ugly and corrupt, are made to appear the norms of social and cultural expressions...when evil, under a variety of masks takes the place of good....
Compton then lists some of the Catholic Churches failings in recent years:
Decline in belief of absolutes (p.2-3)
Its readiness to compromise with evil in this world, rather than holding the line against it. (p.3)
Preaching of Humanism in the name of Christian charity. (p.3)
Changing from being the inflexible enemy of Communism to taking part in compromising "dialogue", thus ruining society.
Surrendered its creed of One True God in heaven for the false creed that their are many gods in Heaven and Earth. (p.3) This particular criticism is very interesting, because this doctrinal surrender on this point is the only reason that Pope John Paul II can justify cooperating with the leaders of false pagan religions. Catholicism's abandonment on this issue is THE only way that the world could be united in one religion headed by the False Prophet. This doctrinal surrender is serious, indeed.
Compton then asks the critical question -- "what has caused the changes in the Church"?...
Compton then states the reason that the Masters of the Illuminati would desire to take over the Papacy, "The urge for world domination, whether by force of arms, culture, or religion, is as old as history...." (p.5) The Illuminati correctly reasoned that they could not impose the New World Order upon the world unless they seized control of the most powerful church in the Western World.
After tracing some of the attempts to take control of the Papacy by non-Christian elements, Compton then speaks of Adam Weishaupt, the Jesuit priest who created the Masters of the Illuminati. Compton states, "...Adam Weishaupt could view the prospect before him with a military mind. He had thrust and vision. He knew the value of surprise, which is grounded in secrecy...He was single-minded....He would blend mankind into one whole, eliminate tradition...suppress dogma..." Weishaupt "set himself apart from his fellows in the name of universal brotherhood. The ideal state that Weishaupt had in mind was...founded upon the impossible dream of human perfection...On the First day of May, 1776, the secret society that was to profoundly affect much subsequent history came into existence as the Illuminati. The date and certain of its implications are noteworthy." Indeed the date of the founding of the Masters of the Illuminati was very noteworthy; April 30 and May 1 are the two days of the Satanic holy sabbath, called "Beltaine". This sabbath is the most important of the year, except for Halloween. Human sacrifice is required on May 1 every year.
Compton continues, "The Illuminati had ... decided on a most ambitious line of conduct. It would form and control public opinion. It would amalgamate religions by dissolving all the differences of belief and ritual that had kept them apart; and it would take over the Papacy and place an agent of its own in the Chair of Peter." (p. 7-8) Later, a member of the Illuminati, Nubius, wrote in 1818, that the goal of the Illuminati, is "the complete annihilation of Catholicism, and even ultimately of Christianity....
Pope Paul VI, on October 4, 1965, spoke to United Nations, October 4, 1965), (p.67) giving a speech Compton decried as purely secular humanistic....
Compton then addresses the spiritual nature of this Jesuit priest who had just founded the Masters of the Illuminati. We learn that, not only was Weishaupt occultic, he and his key leaders were adepts in the ancient art of witchcraft....
Then, Compton makes a most unbelievable assertion, "Before leaving America, Pope Paul (VI, in 1965), to press home his voluntary renunciation of spiritual authority, made a show of divesting himself of the Church's reminders and insignia. He gave the Papal ring of diamonds and rubies, and his pectoral cross of diamonds and emeralds...and the tiara, the triple crown that denotes the Trinity, the authority, and the spiritual powers of the Church...to the Buddhist U Thant, then Secretary-General of the United Nations." This abdication means that the Pope no longer considers himself to be the "Vicar upon earth of Jesus Christ". (p.70-71).
This show of giving up his authoritative insignia and crown was consistent with the next step Pope Paul VI took. "He also made use of a sinister symbol, used by Satanists in the sixth century, that had been revived at the time of Vatican Two. This was a bent or broken cross, on which was displayed a repulsive and distorted figure of Christ, which the black magicians and sorcerers of the Middle Ages had made use of to represent the Biblical term 'Mark of the Beast'. Yet not only Paul VI, but his successors, the two John-Pauls, carried that object and held it up to be revered by crowds, who had not the slightest idea that it stood for anti-Christ." (p. 72) On page 56 Compton prints a picture of the current Pope, John Paul II, holding this bent or broken cross. Thus, Compton asserts that the 200-year-old Secret Society goal of placing one of their own men in the office of the Papacy had been accomplished. Compton then shows the awful result of this victory.
"Within a few days of Paul's return to Rome, ... Pope Paul let it be known that Rome...was ready to take a new look at secret societies." (p.72) Remember, the year was 1965. Then, Compton states that one summer morning, 1976, young Catholic seminarians were greatly alarmed by a revelation in a journal called the "Borghese...for the paper contained a detailed list of clerics, some holding the most exalted offices, who were said to be members of secret societies. It was staggering news, for...the students were acquainted with...Canon Law 2335, [which] expressly stated that a Catholic who joined any such society became excommunicate...while Canon 2336 was concerned with disciplinary measures to be enforced against any cleric" who might join a secret society. Michael Howard the Luciferian author of "The Occult Conspiracy: Secret Societies, The Influence And Power In World History", speaks of this same list, but goes further, revealing that most of these officials were members of Freemasonry. Howard stated that the list of these high Vatican officials who were members of occult secret societies extended as high as Pope Paul VI's private secretary and Director General of Vatican Radio. (p. 152)...
The stage was now set for full Papal approval of membership in secret societies. On November 27, 1983, Pope John Paul II, the current Pope, issued the Papal Bull which legalized secret society membership for Roman Catholics.
Now we can understand how it is that Pope John Paul II can so brazenly display the occultic bent or broken cross. Now we can understand how Pope John Paul can eagerly pursue domination of the New World Order, as asserted by Malachi Martin in his book, The Keys Of This Blood. Martin is a retired Jesuit priest, who taught at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute...
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