Pro and Con 1223

Posted 7-10-05

Incoming e-mail, Re: The Wailing Wall: The waters of salvation - see for yourself!

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2005/07/the_wailing_wal.html

Hoping you and Ed are doing well. I found this article and knew you would be interested. Prophecies are being fulfilled daily now. This article is very encouraging. Hoping to see you and Ed in the air really soon. In Jesus Love

My reply

Thanks much.

Two pictures of the weeping wailing wall:

Also on that site:
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2005/06/gerrer_rebbe_sh.html
Gerrer Rebbe Shlit"a: "Moshiach this year, or by the end of next year."
---
This is interesting too:
Alan Trombetta (8 July 2005)
"The Mufti's Panic : The Gihon Resurfaces Under The Temple Mount - [ Moriah ] !!!"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2005/alant78-2.htm

...According to Islamic tradition, when the waters of the Gihon begin surfacing under the Dome of the Rock, then the Jewish Messiah is fast on the way, and their downfall is imminent. Soon, very soon, there won't be any more mosques on the Temple Mount....

Incoming e-mail, Re: Sons of Thunder

I was researching the scripture, articles and interpretation of the Transfiguration and it's possible relationship to "rapture", etc. and its timing and I ran across this article from ASK that I thought you might find of interest:
Restoring the Original Bible
By Ernest L. MartinChapter 19: The Apostle John And Canonization
http://www.askelm.com/restoring/res025.htm

With Mercury/Venus moving now into Cancer (from Gemini) and Saturn soon to follow (July 1) and the Sun now moving into Gemini (twins) till July 21 as Venus/Mercury then continue on to Leo, the coming 6 weeks till the Transfiguration date of August 5-6 seems in some ways to represent this story. On the Jewish calendar, the disengagement is scheduled for Aug 15th right after the 3 weeks of Fast of Tammuz to 9th of Av, an historically disastrous period in IS history. The date of Transfiguration will fall in the midst of this period.

Will there be "thunders" over the next six weeks?

My reply

I don't know about the thunders over the next six weeks, but thanks much for sending Ernest L. Martin's information on James and John, the Sons of Thunder. It is very interesting.

> > the Transfiguration date of August 5-6

I don't think August 5-6 could be the right date. The Transfiguration was BEFORE the Crucifixion on April 6, 30 AD. Mark 9:9 says, "as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were RISEN FROM THE DEAD." Luke 9:30,31 says, "there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and SPAKE OF HIS DECEASE".

> > The traditional beliefs of the early church were strong that John was in Asia Minor or had close connections to the Christians in Asia Minor (notably in Ephesus) from the middle 60s C.E. until his death, and that Peter died in Rome about 66 or 67 C.E. There is little reason to doubt the truth of these beliefs.

I'm not sure that Peter died in Rome. I Peter 5:13 says, "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you". It seems reasonable to assume that the gospel had reached the Hebrews still living in Babylon and that some had accepted Christ.

> > That last epistle of Peter?s informed the Christian people of Asia Minor that Peter was putting in the hands of the apostle John the final job of sanctioning and completing an ordained body of inspired scriptures for the Christian community. To Peter, the apostle John was the only other person who had the prophetic spirit to accomplish such a task, since he was the only person left alive who was given that commission on the Mount of Transfiguration....

> > The apostle John was specifically commissioned to write what the Voice of God (like the Thunder) would relate to him. This is why he wrote his Gospel and the Book of Revelation to be included in the canon of the New Testament. Such a task shows that John was more specially selected to produce a canon of scriptures which would proclaim the official Voice of God than even Peter or Paul. This is no doubt the reason that Peter sent his Second Epistle (with the partial canonization that he and Paul had accomplished in Rome) directly to John in Ephesus....

> > There may be more concerning the rank of John than meets the eye. It is usually not understood, but the mother of James and John was none other than Salome (Matthew 27:56 with Mark 15:40) who was the sister of Mary, the mother of Christ. This means that Christ and John were first cousins

That helps us understand why Jesus loved John so much.

> > One more thing about John should be mentioned. Not only were his mother and Christ?s mother sisters (and this gave John some preeminence), but we find that Mary, and obviously her sister, Salome, were in some way connected with priestly ancestry. Polycrates in the late 2nd century said that "John, who leaned back on the Lord?s breast, became a sacrificing priest wearing the mitre, a martyr and a teacher; he too sleeps in Ephesus." 3 If John was indeed of priestly ancestry, then it follows that his father Zebedee was a priest. Both Salome, John?s mother, and her sister Mary could have had Aaronic (priestly) ancestry as well.

> > Recall that Mary was a kinswoman to Elizabeth, the wife of Zacharias who was an Aaronic priest and the father of John the Baptist, and Elizabeth herself was recognized as "a daughter of Aaron" (Luke 1:6). This means that both Mary and Salome could be reckoned as being of priestly descent....

> > The Bible would allow that Zebedee and Salome (the father and mother of the apostle John and his brother James) were both of priestly ancestry, thus John himself would have been a priest....when Christ was taken to Caiaphus the High Priest in Caiaphus? Temple house on the morning of his crucifixion, John was able to walk into the quarters of the priests and was known intimately by Caiaphus (John 18:15?16).

> > These biblical indications alone are enough to show that the apostle John was of priestly ancestry, but there is also the teaching in the Book of Revelation that John was able to go into the innermost sanctuary of the Temple and to count those who did service there (Revelation 11:1?2). This entering the inner Temple shows that John (and his brother James) were no doubt of priestly ancestry. These two cousins of Christ being priests gave them a proper authority to canonize books for the Bible....

> > Thus, with the sons of Zebedee acknowledged as being of priestly aristocracy in the nation, this gave them an authority in regard to canonization that the other apostles did not have. Even Peter did not have the ultimate authority in a canonical sense. But John and his brother James did have that authority. Besides that, they knew Christ from childhood.

> > The "Sons of Thunder" (John and James) would have grown up with Christ in Nazareth. They would have known him very well. This is why John (with Peter) had "the word of prophecy more confirmed." This special rank is no doubt the reason Peter handed the material that he had collected and arranged in Rome to the apostle John in Ephesus for the final canonization of the New Testament. John had the special role of being a "Son of God?s Voice" and was eminently qualified to do the job. The title that Christ gave him points to that authority; and the fact that he witnessed the Transfiguration was another proof.

> > John, then, became the final "Thunder (Voice) of God" to the Christian community. He became the official spokesman for the truth....

I'm so glad you sent me this information. I hadn't realized why John was singled out to finish Scripture. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: 14000 days, etc

After reading ProCon 1222 I got excited, so I did a Google search on 14000 days and got more than I expected ... you should try it!!

After I went to the US Naval Observatory site and got this information about the October New Moon, though I doubt that the rapture will occur at 12:28 pm (but hey, no man knows the hour, right? ;-)
---
The following information is provided for Jerusalem (longitude E35.2, latitude N31.8):

Monday 3 October 2005 Universal Time + 2h
SUN
Begin civil twilight 05:10
Sunrise 05:34
Sun transit 11:28
Sunset 17:22
End civil twilight 17:46
MOON
Moonset 16:58 on preceding day
Moonrise 05:22
Moon transit 11:27
Moonset 17:24
Moonrise 06:20 on following day

New Moon on 3 October 2005 at 12:28 (Universal Time + 2h).
His Love and Blessings

My reply

I tried it and found the following on Google. My comments follow the quote.

WILL JESUS RETURN THIS OCTOBER 2005?

THE BIBLE CONFIRMS THAT A GENERATION IS EXACTLY 14,000 DAYS IN LENGTH
By Everett Vasek
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/eternalhome101/updated.html

The generation of Jesus lasted exactly 14,000 days.

There are three different generations mentioned in the Bible; one, is the Generation of Moses, two, is the generation of Jesus, and three, is the last days generation that will be alive to see the return of Jesus in power and glory. People have offered different Ideas for the length of a generation; such as 40 years, or 70 years, but the most biblical length of a generation I've yet seen is given by John Zachary, in his book "Threshold of Eternity". He believes that a biblical generation is equal to 14,000 days, or 2000 weeks, or about 38 years and 4 months. Zachary determined this number by using a perpetual calendar to add up the number of days between two events mentioned in the Bible. The first event that he started counting from is the day of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, "Palm Sunday", April 6, 32 A.D. This day is chosen, because Jesus prophesied on Palm Sunday that

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Matthew 23:36

Zachary stopped his count on the very day that the city and the Temple were destroyed by the Roman legions under Titus Vespasian on August 5, 70 A.D. There were exactly 14,000 days between these two events.

The generation of Moses lasted exactly 14,000 days.

God worked many great miracles to free the Israelites from slavery in Egypt, and He wanted the Jews to immediately go up and possess the promised land. However, the fighting men, age twenty and up, refused to trust God, and His promise to fight for them. Therefore, God became angry, and He swore; that generation would not enter the promised land.

Now it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year...Num. 10:11

In the book of Numbers, we are told that For one year, one month, and twenty days, a total of 410 days (360 days = a year + 30 days = a month + 20 days = 410 days), the Israelites traveled to and camped at Mt. Sinai....The people had spent the 410 days getting to mt. Sinai and staying there. But now the Tabernacle had been completed and the glory of the LORD was seen above the Tabernacle as a cloud by day and a fire by night. For the first time in their history, the cloud of God's Glory was about to lift and the people would now begin their wanderings in the wilderness.

Now it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from above the tabernacle of the Testimony. And the children of Israel set out from the Wilderness of Sinai on their journeys... So they started out for the first time according to the command of the LORD by the hand of Moses. Num. 10:11-13

They started out for the first time to follow the glory of the LORD. This was a momentous day in God's plan, because it would be exactly 14,000 days later that their children would cross the Jordan River and enter the promised land. During their journey in the wilderness, the entire generation of fighting men will die off along the way. Only Joshua and Caleb will be allowed in because of their obedience.

Moses was one of the last men of that generation to die. In Deuteronomy 1:3 we learn that it is now the first day of the eleventh month of the fortieth year.

Now it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spoke to the children of Israel according to all that the LORD had given him as commandments to them, Deut. 1:3...

So, we know that Moses preached the words of Deuteronomy and also died on the same day, the first day of the eleventh month of the fortieth year from leaving Egypt....

Deut.34:9 Joshua assumed leadership after the 30 days of mourning on the first day of the twelfth month of the fortieth year.

After the death of Moses... the LORD spoke to Joshua, saying: "Moses My servant is dead. Now therefore, arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them...Joshua 1:1

Now the people came up from the Jordan on the tenth day of the first month... Joshua 4:19

This is the tenth day of the first month of the forty-first year since they left Egypt. To count the days we will add the following:

FORTY YEARS TIMES 360 DAYS PER YEAR = 14,400 DAYS ADD 10 DAYS FROM JOSHUA 4:19 "THEY CROSSED THE JORDAN ON THE TENTH DAY OF THE FIRST MONTH" 14,400 + 10 = 14,410 DAYS

FOR A TOTAL OF 14,410 DAYS ELAPSED FROM THE TIME THEY LEFT EGYPT, UNTIL THEY CROSSED THE JORDAN RIVER.

NOW WE SUBTRACT THE 410 DAYS FROM NUMBERS 10:11 AND WE GET 14,410 - 410 = 14,000 DAYS

From the first day that the Glory of God lifted from the Tabernacle, until the people crossed the Jordan, exactly 14,000 days elapsed.
---
> > The first event that he started counting from is the day of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, "Palm Sunday", April 6, 32 A.D.

I don't agree with his dates. I think Palm Sunday was Nisan 9, 3790 (April 2, 30 AD). Herod began building the temple in 3742 (BC 20/19). It had been under construction 46 years (John 2:20) in 3787 (27 AD), the first Passover of Jesus' ministry. Since the 46 years are a block of years, not running time, they would have been counted by inclusive reckoning (3741 + 46 = 3787).

> > In the book of Numbers, we are told that For one year, one month, and twenty days, a total of 410 days ( 360 days = a year + 30 days = a month + 20 days = 410 days), the Israelites traveled to and camped at Mt. Sinai.

Nu. 10:11,12 says, "it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month (Iyar 20), in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony. And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran." It is just giving us a date (Iyar 20) when Israel left Sinai.

Using his "one year, one month, and twenty days" formula

If the Israelites went through the Red Sea crossing on Nisan 17, as the Jews claim, the end of the first year would be the next Nisan 17. Nisan is the first month, so we add another month and end up with Iyar 17. Twenty days later would be Sivan 8. I don't think that is what Nu. 10:11,12 means. Instead of indicating Sivan 8, it indicates Iyar 20, "the twentieth day of the second month" in the second year.

I can't accept that a year on the Hebrew Calendar was 360 days long. To me, it would have been 353 (Deficient Year), 354 (Normal Year), 355 (Full Year), 383 (Deficient Leap Year), 384 (Normal LY) or 385 (Full LY) days long. Those are the only day counts possible in the six types of Hebrew Years.

> > Now the people came up from the Jordan on the tenth day of the first month... Joshua 4:19
> > This is the tenth day of the first month of the forty-first year since they left Egypt.
To count the days we will add the following:
> > FORTY YEARS TIMES 360 DAYS PER YEAR = 14,400 DAYS ADD 10 DAYS FROM JOSHUA 4:19 "THEY CROSSED THE JORDAN ON THE TENTH DAY OF THE FIRST MONTH" 14,400 + 10 = 14,410 DAYS
> > FOR A TOTAL OF 14,410 DAYS ELAPSED FROM THE TIME THEY LEFT EGYPT, UNTIL THEY CROSSED THE JORDAN RIVER.
> > NOW WE SUBTRACT THE 410 DAYS FROM NUMBERS 10:11 AND WE GET 14,410 - 410 = 14,000 DAYS
> > From the first day that the Glory of God lifted from the Tabernacle, until the people crossed the Jordan, exactly 14,000 days elapsed.

Since he used a 360-day year, I can't accept this as the exact number of days either. If we add up the possible number of days in the 6 types of years, and divide that by 6, we get 369 days as an average. However, the 6 types of years do not follow each other in orderly progression. Neither do the leap years (3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 19).

Let's look at this one again.

> > FORTY YEARS TIMES 360 DAYS PER YEAR = 14,400 DAYS ADD 10 DAYS FROM JOSHUA 4:19 "THEY CROSSED THE JORDAN ON THE TENTH DAY OF THE FIRST MONTH" 14,400 + 10 = 14,410 DAYS

If Israel crossed the Red Sea on Nisan 17, and we added 40 years and 10 days, we would end up on Nisan 27. Yet, they entered the Promised Land on Nisan 10.

My conclusion. I can't accept his 410-day count or his 14,000-day count as correct. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rev. chapter 1

Arlene (7 July 2005)
"TO MARILYN AGEE"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2005/arlene77-1.htm

I had said previously that John was on the Isle of Patmos, "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day",,,,,and that this scene was on earth, before John was caught up to heaven. John sees Jesus in the Spirit and falls at His feet "as dead". I don't think when we arrive in heaven that we will fall at His feet "as dead", but more like with great praise. Marilyn says:

"the Preview of the Rapture. In it, John was on Patmos, which means mortal. Then when he heard Christ's voice like a trumpet, he was suddenly in the spirit and in Heaven. Since Christ does not return to Earth until the Second Advent, He was in Heaven with the 7 churches around him in the Preview of the Rapture."

But Paul saw Christ while He was on earth, and also fell down, those around him not knowing what was going on. Also Peter had his vision and the voice of God, while he was on the earth, the same as with Zechariah and many of the prophets who "were in the Spirit" when they received their revelations... So I think also John saw Christ taking up His role of judge, while John was still on earth, prior to the "come up hither", which was "after this". The letters the Lord gave to the churches for John to send to the churches, were warnings to the churches to get their acts together, before, He states, "I will come upon you as a thief in the night and you SHALL NOT (future) know the hour.....etc.". For, it is "AFTER THIS" that John was caught up to heaven when the door was opened "in heaven" for him to respond to the "come up hither". see:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Now, John is indeed in heaven, after his vision of the warnings to the churches, and where we will be to witness Christ, the slain lamb, being found worthy to open the scroll (title deed) of redemption. I think John's vision of Christ amongst the candlesticks (churches) then took place while John was on the earth......taking the dictation which would be sent to the churches in preparation for their becoming overcomers and in particular the last four churches, portions of which would see the actual rapture day.
Grace, and peace, and may He give us the "word of His patience" until then.....
Your sister Arlene

My reply

> > I had said previously that John was on the Isle of Patmos, "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day",,,,,and that this scene was on earth, before John was caught up to heaven. John sees Jesus in the Spirit and falls at His feet "as dead". I don't think when we arrive in heaven that we will fall at His feet "as dead", but more like with great praise.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3 and 22:10). Jesus signs off saying, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture, and we rise up to meet him in the air. Rev. 2:5 says, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev. 3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Maybe the Rapture will be just ten days after Jesus' assessment of the status of the churches. Rev. 2:10,11 says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". This way, "at hand" in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10 would indicate a ten-day period. This would put the Preview of the Rapture ten days before the actual Rapture.

In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, John was on Patmos, which means "mortal" (i.e., like us, he was in his mortal body on Earth). Then suddenly, he BECAME in the Spirit in Heaven. Rev. 1:10 (KJV) says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (i.e., on the first of the two Days of the Son of Man (Luke 17:22, 26).

The word "ginomai," translated "was", should be translated "became," as in the margin. Of ginomai, Strong's says, "A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled...be taken". John was caused to be in the Spirit. There was a change. Figuratively, he did arise. He was taken to be assembled with the other church saints in Heaven.

Jesus never appeared like that on Earth. "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire" (Rev. 1:14). The only other time we see this is in Dan. 7:9. It says, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Jesus is both the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

You can see this in other versions.

(Darby): "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet".
(LITV)): "I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet".
(ALT): "I came to be in spirit [or, in [the] Spirit] on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, like a trumpet-blast".
(ISV)): "I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord, when I heard a loud voice behind me like a trumpet".

We also find "ginomai" used in Rev. 4:2. Darby translated it as "Immediately I became in the Spirit; and behold, a throne stood in the heaven".

The Rapture that is pictured in the Preview actually takes place in Rev. 4:1,2, after which, John and the 23 other elders that are in Heaven "FELL DOWN BEFORE THE LAMB" (Rev. 5:8). The Preview has its facts straight.

Since Jesus will not return to Earth until the Second Advent, he has to be in Heaven in Rev. 1:13-16. At the Rapture, we will rise to meet him in the air.

> > I think also John saw Christ taking up His role of judge, while John was still on earth, prior to the "come up hither", which was "after this". The letters the Lord gave to the churches for John to send to the churches, were warnings to the churches to get their acts together, before, He states, "I will come upon you as a thief in the night and you SHALL NOT (future) know the hour.....etc.". For, it is "AFTER THIS" that John was caught up to heaven when the door was opened "in heaven" for him to respond to the "come up hither". see:

> > Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

The whole book is arranged according to Rev 1:19,20. Following the Preview, Jesus said, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., the status of the churches in Asia), and the things which are (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter (after the Rapture); The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." Only at the Rapture would we see the seven star performers of the churches in Christ's hand. That is when he snatches them up.

In Rev. 4:1, the voice of Jesus is "as it were of a TRUMPET talking." In the Preview in Rev. 1:10, John heard the same trumpet voice. He said that he "heard behind me a great voice, AS OF A TRUMPET." Rev. 4:1 upholds this, saying "the FIRST VOICE which I heard (i.e., heard both in the Preview in Rev. 1:10 and in 4:1) was AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither". Both the trumpet voice in Rev. 1:10 and 4:1 is Christ's voice at the first trump (i.e., at the first Rapture). The second Rapture is at the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52).

We are given details in the Preview in Rev. 1 that are not repeated in Rev. 4 and 5. In Rev. 1:10,11, Christ's "VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET" says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." He is both YHWH King of Israel and YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer (Isa. 44:6). Agape


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