Pro and Con 1227

Posted 7-25-05

Earthquakes in divers places, Mt. 24:7

7.2 earthquake hits southern India
Temblor rattles Andaman, Nicobar islands; Thailand cancels tsunami alert, July 25, 05

Strong earthquake shakes Tokyo;_ylt=AlbOBfj3hu8MzvL1zNqGBPys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY

Jul 23, - TOKYO (AFP) - A strong earthquake registering 6.0 on the Richter scale shook Tokyo and its vicinity, lightly injuring 18 people, swaying buildings in the heart of the capital and disrupting transport.

Incoming e-mail, Re: Song of Solomon 2:10-14

I took another look at Song of Solomon 2:10-14. I know you have covered this before, but I always get something new when I read a part of the Bible I've been over before. What a great book!!

It says (KJV with Strong's numbers): Son 2:10 My beloved1730 spoke,6030 and said559 unto me, Rise up,6965 my love,7474 my fair one,3303 and come away.1980 Son 2:11 For,3588 lo,2009 the winter5638 is past,5674 the rain1653 is over2498 and gone;1980 Son 2:12 The flowers5339 appear7200 on the earth;776 the time6256 of the singing2158 of birds is come,5060 and the voice6963 of the turtle8449 is heard8085 in our land;776 Son 2:13 The fig tree8384 putteth forth2590 her green figs,6291 and the vines1612 with the tender grape5563 give5414 a good smell.7381 Arise,6965 my love,7474 my fair one,3303 and come away.1980 Son 2:14 O my dove,3123 that art in the clefts2288 of the rock,5553 in the secret5643 places of the stairs,4095 let me see7200 (853) thy countenance,4758 let me hear8085 (853) thy voice;6963 for3588 sweet6156 is thy voice,6963 and thy countenance4758 is comely.5000

I like the way it is put together.
v. 10 says "...Rise up, my love..."
v. 13b says "Arise, my love..."

In between those two:
v. 11-13a says:
"...the winter is past"
"the rain is over and gone"
"The flowers appear on the earth"
"the time of the singing of birds is come"
"the voice of the turtle(dove) is heard..."
"The fig tree putteth forth her green figs"
"the vines with the tender grapes give a good smell"

That's 7 different things that are described to set the time frame for this passage. Are those things happening one after the other? It sounds like these things are building on each other until finally, "the vines with the tender grapes give a good smell" and 13b says "Arise my love...". We don't see any description of the next thing. It seems like the "next thing" - whatever that might be - doesn't happen before v. 13b.

This desciption of the 7 things seems really specific and detailed to me. Also, if these things happen one after the other, then it might make sense to think of the "Arise, my love..." happening after "...the vines with the tender grapes give a good smell" just like flowers appear on earth after the rain is over and gone. It wouldn't be at the same time, but the next logical thing "April showers bring May flowers" as the saying goes - one comes after the other.

Strong's H5563 (given below) for "tender grapes" is interesting. It may mean when the vines are blossoming. I also think Strong's H2590 (given below) for "putteth forth" is interesting. It may mean when the green figs are just ripening - not when the green figs are just coming onto the branches which is the way I had understood it before.

It seems that the time when these things happened would also be a little different every year depending on the weather, etc. - although around the same time (same season / month). So, is there a specific time when those last two things might happen? When are the figs beginning to ripen and when are there blossoms on the grape vines? How long do those conditions last - for a few days or weeks? It seems like the "Arise, my love..." of v. 13b might naturally come after the grape blossoms appear. ***
Strong's H2590 cha?nat? A primitive root; to spice; by implication to embalm; also to ripen: - embalm, put forth.
H5563 sema?dar Of uncertain derivation; a vine blossom; used also adverbially abloom: tender grape. Thanks

My reply

> v. 10 says "...Rise up, my love..."
> v. 13b says "Arise, my love..."

Passages that are bookended seem to be important. The original word for "Rise" and "Arise" is the same too.

> "...the winter is past"

Unger's Bible Dictionary says, "In Palestine winter includes part of autumn and the seasons of seedtime and cold, extending from the beginning of September to the beginning of March."

> "the rain is over and gone"

The former rain starts Tishri 1. The latter rain starts Nisan 1. So, Nisan is over.

> "The flowers appear on the earth"

April showers bring May flowers. However, at times, they have wildflowers blooming on Mt. Carmel as early as January.

> "the time of the singing of birds is come"

The words "of birds" is not in the original. It is the time of singing. The Bride of Christ sings a "NEW SONG" right after the Rapture.

> "the voice of the turtle(dove) is heard..."

The turtledoves arrive in April and leave in October.

> "The fig tree putteth forth her green figs"

There are several varieties. Some produce in the spring, others in the summer, and some trees are heavy laden in October.

> "the vines with the tender grapes give a good smell"

The time of the firstripe grapes is Sivan 29 (July 6, 2005). Forty days later, on Av 10 (Aug. 15, 2005), the spies brought back one large bunch of grapes slung on a pole between two men. That might be the date indicated by the tender grapes giving a good smell at the time of the first Rapture. Both temples went up in clouds of smoke on Av 10 too. They disappeared from Earth. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Will we go up in clouds on Av 10? We will disappear from Earth at the Rapture.

August 15 is not far away. Hope that will be the day. If not, I'll wait patiently until the Lord comes for his Bride. Agape

Creatures Frozen for 32,000 Years Still Alive

By Robert Roy Britt, 23 February 2005

A new type of organism discovered in an Arctic tunnel came to life in the lab after being frozen for 32,000 years...."They immediately started swimming when the ice melted,"...


Ice Packs and Methane on Mars Suggest Present Life Possible, European Team Says
By Robert Roy Britt, 22 February 2005

A European space probe has found evidence for large blocks of water ice just beneath the Martian surface in relatively warm conditions near the equator.

The frozen sea of sorts...The ice exists in a block that resemble polar ice on Earth, according to the research team. It measures about 497 by 559 miles (800 by 900 kilometers) and averages up to 150 feet (45 meters) deep.

Was the temple burned on Av 9 or 10?

By Marilyn Agee

Today, the Jews say Av 9 and fast on Tisha B'Av. Josephus says Av 10. Which is it?


"After the Jewish slaves were freed from Egypt, they were wandering in the desert on their way to the Land of Israel, “the promised land”. Before they got there, 12 spies were sent to find out what Israel was like and report back to Moses and the other Jews. On the 9th Av, 10 of them returned, saying Israel was a bad place and would be impossible for the Jews to live in. When God heard them say that, he knew it was not true, and he decided to punish almost all the Jewish people. He said that all the adult Jews who were alive at that time would have to keep wandering in the desert until they were dead (another 40 years). But their children, plus the two spies who had come back with good reports from Israel would be allowed to enter Israel and live there for ever.

"The First Jewish Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed on the 9th Av."
We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I Cor 6:19 says, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

Eph 2:20-22 says that we "are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Josephus wrote: "Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house; but, as for that house, God had for certain long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous [Av], upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon" (Wars VI. IV. 5). That was August 5, 70 AD.

The first impact of the 21 pieces of the comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 was on July 16, 1994. At 6 PM, Tisha B'Av, the 9th of Av, began.

Incoming e-mail, Re: Daniel's Linear Prophecy and Lunar Cycles

Incoming e-mail, Re: Generation

The interpretation of how long a generation is, still has me in deep thought. Gen. 15:13 says, 13Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14"And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15"Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16"But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

Ex. 12:40 says, 40Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. I believe the descendants of Jacob from this time were Mt. 1: …Jacob begot Judah ... 3Judah begot Perez … Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4Ram begot Amminadab. I believe Amminadab was head of Judah when the Israelites refused to go into the promised land. If this not the time frame the Lord was talking about, we must go to the next generation who be Nahshon . Amminadab begot Nahshon. This would be the time when Joshua took them into the promised land. Maybe you could help me understand how a generation time period is determined in this sequence starting with the 400 years mentioned in Gen. 15:16.

Also something interesting that I have read several times before, jumped out at me this time, was when Joseph interpreted the cupbearer and baker’s dreams. When the dreams were fullfilled Gen. 40:23 says, 23Yet the chief bearer did not remember Joseph, but forgot him. Gen. 41:1, 1Then it came to pass, at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh had a dream; and behold, he stood by the river. Now begins the telling of the 7 good years and 7 bad years. If this is looked at as an example for us then maybe a full 2,000 years have to pass after Christ’s death for the beginning of the next 7good and bad years to take place. Hope to get your thoughts on both these matters. Agape

My reply

Here are my thoughts.


In Antiquities of the Jews II, XV. 2, Josephus said, "They left Egypt in the month Xanthicus (Nisan), on the fifteenth day of the lunar month; FOUR HUNDRED AND THIRTY YEARS after our forefather Abraham came into Canaan, but TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN YEARS only after Jacob removed into Egypt."

Therefore, from Abraham's entry into Canaan to Jacob's moving to Egypt was 215 years. From Jacob's moving to Egypt to the Exodus was 215 years, making a grand total of 430 years for the sojourning of Abraham and his seed. Half of the time, they were in Canaan. The other half of the time, they were in Egypt. Neither land was theirs at the time.

Ex. 12:40 in the LXX says, “the sojourning of the children of Israel (Abraham to Moses), while they sojourned IN EGYPT (215 years) AND THE LAND OF CHANAAN (215 years), was four hundred and thirty years.”


Gen. 15:13-16 says, "He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and THEY (Egyptians, including Ishmael) WILL AFFLICT THEM FOUR HUNDRED YEARS. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the FOURTH GENERATION (from entering Egypt, i.e., Levi, Kohath, Amram and Moses) they shall return here".

The 400 years started when Ishmael was cast out when Isaac was 5 years old. Abraham was 75 when called, and there were 25 more years until Isaac was born. Isaac became the heir at 5 when Ishmael was cast out. 400 + 25 + 5 = 430 years.

To get a rough estimate of a generation, if we divide 215 years by 4 generations, a generation would be 53.75 years. That makes the 48.33 years of Mt. 1:17 sound just right. Forty-eight years from the Six-Day War of 1967 (5727) is 2015 (5775).

> > Then it came to pass, at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh had a dream; and behold, he stood by the river. Now begins the telling of the 7 good years and 7 bad years. If this is looked at as an example for us then maybe a full 2,000 years have to pass after Christ’s death for the beginning of the next 7 good and bad years to take place.

However, it might suggest two years. I think 5758 (1997/1998) was the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden. Adding 2 years, then the 7 good years, would bring us to 5767 (2006/2007).

Adding 7 bad years to 5767 would bring us to 5774 (2013/2014). That is possible, because it is a Leap Year. You might have something there. Tishri 1, 5774 will be September 5, 2013.

Av 10, 5767, is Wednesday, July 25, 2007. Could that be the Rapture? Forty means testing. Israel was tested 40 years in the wilderness before entering the Promised Land, and 40 years from the Six-Day War of 1967 would be 2007. I hope the Rapture will be sooner than that, but I'll be happy if it is within this time frame. Time flies.

June 5, 1967, when the Six-Day War started, was Monday, Iyar 26, 5727, the month and day the spies entered the Promised Land. Iyar 26, 5767 would be Monday, May 14, 2007. Food for thought. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Sons of Thunder

I was researching the scripture, articles and interpretation of the Transfiguration and it's possible relationship to "rapture", etc. and its timing and I ran across this article from ASK that I thought you might find of interest:

With Mercury/Venus moving now into Cancer (from Gemini) and Saturn soon to follow (July 1) and the Sun now moving into Gemini (twins) till July 21 as Venus/Mercury then continue on to Leo, the coming 6 weeks till the Transfiguration date of August 5-6 seems in some ways to represent this story. On the Jewish calendar, the disengagement is scheduled for Aug 15th right after the 3 weeks of Fast of Tammuz to 9th of Av, an historically disastrous period in IS history. The date of Transfiguration will fall in the midst of this period.

Will there be "thunders" over the next six weeks?

My reply

Thanks much. Ernest L. Martin's information on James and John, the Sons of Thunder, is very interesting.

> > the Transfiguration date of August 5-6

I don't think that is the right date. The Transfiguration was before the Crucifixion. Mark 9:9 says, "And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were RISEN FROM THE DEAD." Luke 9:30,31 says, "there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and SPAKE OF HIS DECEASE".

Before I look at Martin's information more closely, here are a couple of interesting things I found:
St. John, Apostle and Evangelist
Taken from Vol. IV of "The Lives or the Fathers, Martyrs and Other Principal Saints" by the Rev. Alban Butler

St. Chrysostom says, that when our Lord was apprehended and the other apostles fled, St. John never forsook him; and many imagine that he was the disciple who being known to the high priest, got Peter admitted by the servants into the court of Caiphas....

His exile was not of long continuance; for Domitian being slain in September in 96, all his edicts and public acts were declared void by a decree of the senate on account of his excessive cruelty; and his successor, Nerva, recalled all those whom he had banished.....

John died in peace at Ephesus, in the third year of Trajan (as seems to be gathered from Eusebius's chronicle), that is, the hundredth of the Christian era....
James the Just

Saint James the Just also called James Adelphos ...(died AD 62) was the first bishop or patriarch of Jerusalem and first of the Seventy of Luke 10:1-20 according to most Christian teaching. The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem, Nazarenes or Ebionites, the "poor ones", of whom James was the leader, would not have accorded him such a title. James, a "pillar of the Church" according even to Paul, was the head of the Desposyni, the "heirs of Jesus"....

The Gospel of Thomas (one of the works included in the Nag Hammadi Library), saying 12, relates that the disciples asked Jesus, "We are aware that you will depart from us. Who will be our leader?" Jesus said to him, "No matter where you come [from] IT IS TO JAMES THE JUST THAT YOU SHALL GO, for whose sake heaven and earth have come to exist."...
Restoring the Original Bible, By Ernest L. Martin
Chapter 19: The Apostle John And Canonization

> > The apostle Peter was in Rome when he wrote his Second (and last) Epistle. Paul was then dead, and Peter himself had only a short time to live. This is why he told his readers in Asia Minor that he along with the apostle John were leaving them some official documents (which included the epistles of Paul) to keep them informed of the truth until the return of Christ. The authority to perform such a task was essentially given to three apostles who had been with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration: Peter and the Sons of Zebedee (James and John). And since Peter said that "we have the word of prophecy more confirmed" (2 Peter 1:19) it shows that the apostle John was still alive and involved with Peter in this first, or INITIAL, CANONIZATION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

> > We will see shortly that IT WAS ACTUALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN WHO HAD THE COMMISSION FROM CHRIST TO FINALIZE AND TO COMPLETE THE FULL CANON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. This is one of the main reasons that Christ gave to John the promise that he would live beyond the martyrdom of Peter, even to remain alive "until I come," or as Christ expressed it in the Greek, "until I am coming" (John 21:22–23).

That "until I am coming" probably means until He is coming at the Pre-Trib Rapture in "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." Revelation is written as if His revealing of Himself at the Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10).

> > That last epistle of Peter’s informed the Christian people of Asia Minor that Peter was putting in the hands of the apostle John the final job of sanctioning and completing an ordained body of inspired scriptures for the Christian community. To Peter, the apostle John was the only other person who had the prophetic spirit to accomplish such a task, since he was the only person left alive who was given that commission on the Mount of Transfiguration....

> > When one looks at the biblical account about the actions of these two brothers, they do appear to be stern and uncompromising in their attitudes toward evil. ...They were to be men of "Thunder." In Hebrew "thunder" (kol) meant the Voice of God (Exodus 9:23; Psalm 29:3; Jeremiah 10:13; etc.). The title could signify that they were to speak like God himself as personal spokesmen for God.> > This title gave them a special rank of authority and, along with Peter, they were the only apostles to witness the Transfiguration and to hear the voice of God the Father himself (and in vision to see Moses and Elijah, Matthew 17:1–9). This experience rendered the jurisdiction of those three men as superior to the other apostles and it singled them out for a special purpose. Peter was to be in charge of congregational affairs (Matthew 16:17–19), but James and John were to have the distinction of being "the Sons of Thunder" — to thunder forth his words to the people as did Moses. And though James died early without being able to show his own authority in a lasting way, his brother John was responsible for writing every word of the Book of Revelation. This was Jesus Christ using John to be his spokesman, to be the Voice of God to the people of the world. He was "the Thunderer" to the world of God’s message of judgment.

I'm glad to know that. It seems that John wrote the gospel of John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ after the rest of the books of the New Testament were written.

> > Not only were his mother and Christ’s mother sisters (and this gave John some preeminence), but we find that Mary, and obviously her sister, Salome, were in some way connected with priestly ancestry. Polycrates in the late 2nd century said that "John, who leaned back on the Lord’s breast, became a sacrificing priest wearing the mitre, a martyr and a teacher; he too sleeps in Ephesus." 3 If John was indeed of priestly ancestry, then it follows that his father Zebedee was a priest. Both Salome, John’s mother, and her sister Mary could have had Aaronic (priestly) ancestry as well.

> > Recall that Mary was a kinswoman to Elizabeth, the wife of Zacharias who was an Aaronic priest and the father of John the Baptist, and Elizabeth herself was recognized as "a daughter of Aaron" (Luke 1:6). This means that both Mary and Salome could be reckoned as being of priestly descent....

> > The Bible would allow that Zebedee and Salome (the father and mother of the apostle John and his brother James) were both of priestly ancestry, thus John himself would have been a priest....

> > These two cousins of Christ being priests gave them a proper authority to canonize books for the Bible....

> > Thus, with the sons of Zebedee acknowledged as being of priestly aristocracy in the nation, this gave them an authority in regard to canonization that the other apostles did not have. Even Peter did not have the ultimate authority in a canonical sense. But John and his brother James did have that authority. Besides that, they knew Christ from childhood....

Thanks again for sending this to me. I love to learn new things. Agape

   Pro and Con 1228   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110

© 1996-2005, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 7-25-05