Pro and Con 1230

Posted 8-5-05

"The atmosphere (of Earth) almost looks like an eggshell on an egg, it's so very thin,"
Commander Eileen Collins

...Discovery is currently linked with the International Space Station, orbiting 352km (220 miles) above the Earth.

Patrick Henry: This nation was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ

MJ Martin (25 July 2005)

"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!"
--Patrick Henry

"Biblical Astronomy"
John Clark (30 July 2005)
by Robert Scott Wadsworth November 2001

...There are no foreseeable rare or "astounding" celestial events occurring in August...


Jim Bramlett (4 Aug 2005)
"A vision like Elisha's servant"

Remember after Elisha prayed and his servant's eyes were opened to see in the invisible spirit realm the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha?

This will refresh your memory: "When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. 'Oh, my lord, what shall we do?' the servant asked. 'Donít be afraid,' the prophet answered. 'Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.' And Elisha prayed, 'O LORD, open his eyes so he may see.' Then the LORD opened the servantís eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha" (2 Kings 6:15-17, NIV).

Today I received a testimony of a lady in Canada who had a similar experience on July 30, 2005. It was forwarded to me by Rev. Ron Patterson. Ron does not know the lady, nor does his source, but the person reporting the incident, Robert, says that the lady is normally a solid person not prone to such experiences or extreme claims.

The wording and spelling sound confused, but Robert says, "This sister is obviously much moved. She normally writes and spells much better. Is she receiving a special vision/insight? We all know the time must be near."

Judge it for yourself, but personally I believe she has had an experience similar to Elijah's servant and has been allowed to see in the spirit realm that which is about to take place, but when we do not know. She is understandably shaken and having trouble communicating. Jim


I looked out my window on the east side of the house and i see faces of young men floating in the leaves - no feet just long flowing gowns and the most beautiful smile - they see me and wave with hands to come. I hear people singing praises to the lord in the yard next to my house - i think they may be real - but at this point it is "surreal"; i am told in my spirit they have been out there singing all night -- the men on the horses are approaching from the west over the huge trees in front of that house..

i am shaking so much i cant type - i got go look out the window - be right back - oh my gosh there are tall men walking on the tops of the trees like the did not weigh anything



She later wrote:

My horsemen are still out front - but I can only see them when I am in my living room; there is nothing seen on ground level. I'll check out back and front now before I send this off - yep still same scenario - if I could open my window i could touch the nose of a beautiful black stallion all decked out in shining studied (whatever you call those - harnesses). I am so freaked .....

I'll keep you updated. It is now 7:12 in the morning here in Toronto - I am so nervous i can type and i may have sent this to you a couple of times! ---
Jim Bramlett (4 Aug 2005)
"Follow up to Elisha-like vision"

A reader sent a very fascinating two-point response to my previous message about the lady who had the visions similar to Elisha's servant.

He cited two parallels:

1. This passage is amazing: As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, move quickly, because that will mean the LORD has gone out in front of you to strike the Philistine army." 2 Samuel 5:24.

2. Then he quoted from first century Jewish/Roman historian Josephus concerning the destruction of Jerusalem around the time of Titus, Book VI, Chapter 5, describing something like that seen by Elisha's servant and the Canadian lady recently on July 30:

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, 'Let us remove hence.'"

My comment

That is from "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus. It took place in 66 AD.

Incoming e-mail, RE: Rapture

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't exactly guessing, I was just trying to take a different approach. Trying to simplify things. Using the fact that things repeat themselves, as Solomon said in Eccl 1:9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." I just started looking for patterns. Christ's Birth was foretold by a star, the sun is a star. The sun went dark at the crucifixion before the resurrection, I picked the next time it will go fully dark, Aug 1, 2008. A Friday, three days later He arose. It does seem a little simplistic, but I find that that is the easiest way to solve most puzzles.

At first I thought 2008 was too long because I thought it should be within 40 years of 6/5/67 and that would be 41. I got the 40 years from the "generation" in the Fig Tree in Matthew 24:32-35 ďNow learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." With 40 years being a generation in the bible. Then I thought about it, realized that I was born in 1967 and will still be 40 until my birthday in Aug 20,2008. I figure that my generation can make it that long, but it's stretching it.

I just read your 6/18 post regarding Aug 10, 05. I must say I like your date better and it makes a lot of sense. I really liked the Songs 2 reference. I hadn't thought of that or seen it before, it looks to be a definite Wedding/Rapture, summer time reference to Figs as well. It looks like there is some Iran/EU Nuclear events coming into discussion Aug 1st, with plenty going on on the Gaza strip. You may be right. I'll be watching.

On a semi-related topic, I was wondering if you liked numbers? Nothing complex, but I also worked out a very simple equation that I think is pretty revealing. In short, I was working backwards, trying to determine if there could be enough Demons to be the 1/4 of the earth that Satan takes possesion of. I can send you a powerpoint I'm working on, but in a nutshell, I came up with a sample population size of 888 (Angels/Demons/People), I then found that 888 meant the Messiah. 1/4 of that is 222 for the demons (222 meant those that oppose Christ), Leaving 333 angels and 333 people. (666 in total for the creation), Angels + Demons = 555 for Enlightened/Divine Presence of God. Of the 333 people, 111 (1/3) are saved from Hell (111 means unity with God and Christ), 222 will go to hell (opposing Christ due to ignorance, but with no divine realization). At the final Judgment, If you figure the "once enlightend" Satan & and Demons can't be reformed by the prison of Hell, that leave hope for the 222 people, added to the 111 that never went leaves you with 333 (333 means Queen Bride, Washed White as Snow). In the end, of the 888 sample size, 1/4 (satan & the demons) go to the pit, the 666 (angels and people move into the new Heaven and Earth. As I said, this wasn't complex, and just started out as a curiosity I had. 10 minutes of playing with the numbers, then finding out that the numbers I was getting had meanings made me dig deeper. I've since found many verses in support of my findings. I don't find many people around that take much interest in this, but I find it fascinating. I find the maths and sciences support the bible when applied correctly.

You looked into the eclipses and took the time to give a good response to my last note. I'd like to get your thoughts on this as well if you're willing. If I'm right, it could mean that God's plan may mean that those people sentenced to hell may ultimately find Christ at the End and be Rehabilitated. Forever and ever for them would mean till "The end of the age" or to the end of the 1000 years at the final judgment. Many think this is wrong to think about, but It seems like a pretty good plan to me. 1000-6000 years of torture seems like a pretty good wake up call for those that can be saved. For those we know that can't be saved (Satan and the Demons) the end is sure. I've not seen anyone explain it this way, so I don't really know what to do with this information. As I say, I'm interested in your point of view. Your friend in Christ

My reply

I'm not good with that kind of numbers. I see things a bit more concretely. Jesus told us to watch. Therefore, there are things we will find out by watching.

Right now, I am thinking about the significance of August 6, 9 and 15. On the 6th, the first atomic bomb exploded over Hiroshima. Three days later, the second atomic bomb exploded over Nagasaki. Six days after that, on August 15, 1945, the Japanese surrendered, and peace began. That was a 10-day block of time, counted inclusively, as the Six-Day War is counted. The Six-Day War started June 5 and ended June 10.

In the Bible, the number 7 often means completion. The year 1945 started a series of 7 decades that might be meaningful. The series started 8/15/1945 and ends 8/15/2005. (1) 8/15/1945, (2) 8/15/1955, (3) 8/15/1965, (4) 8/15/1975, (5) 8/15/1985, (6) 8/15/1995, and (7) 8/15/2005.

On the fIrst date, PEACE began. The last date will be on Av 10, when, according to Josephus (Wars. VI. IV. 5) and Jeremiah (52:12,13), both temples went up in clouds of smoke. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. If we went up in clouds that day it would be a good tie-in.

Peace ties in. John 20:26 says, "after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, PEACE be unto you."

In the Preview of the Rapture, Rev 1:4 says, "John to the seven CHURCHES which are in Asia (muddy, i.e., on Earth): Grace be unto you, and PEACE, from him which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent); and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne".

If the Rapture would happen on 8/15/2005, it would be the completion of the entire wise-virgin Bride of Christ, except the 144,000 Israelites that are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They too will be virgins without fault before the throne of God. They too are called FIRSTFRUITS.

James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures."

1Co 15:19-26 says, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become THE FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

The original text had no punctuation. It seems that we would understand this better if it had read "Christ, the firstfruits", with a comma after Christ, as in the LITV. It says, "But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming." Christ was the firstfruits. The Bride group are also firstfruits, and there are two ranks in their resurrection, at the two Raptures.

Rev. 14:3-5 says of the 144,000 caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, "they sung as it were A NEW SONG (as the Pre-Trib Rapture saints sang "A NEW SONG" in Rev. 5:9) before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

The wise-virgins of the Pre-Trib Rapture are predominately Gentile. The wise-virgins of the Pre-Wrath Rapture are all Hebrew. To me, that makes sense, because the Tribulation is the Seventieth Week of Daniel. However, it is also the ENDS of the 2000-year ages, the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews, and the Age of the Church. All three are wrapped up together when the trial that will come upon the WHOLE WORLD runs its course (Rev. 3:10).

Things happened to Israel for examples. In I Cor. 10:11, Paul said of the scriptures, "they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS of the world (tele ton aionon, ENDS of the ages) are come." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: P/C 1229

LORD open their eyes to the Day of Christ and the Day of the LORD...Your publishing of Scriptures should do that. Thanks.

To the person who wrote:
"Time to let go of the RAPTURE HOPE... just for a little while." P/C 1229 WHAT? Let go of the "Blessed Hope"??? No way to the creator of e-mail presented in P/C 1229! You give to much credit to enemy of God. What will come will come, BUT, we who are "In" Christ must not worry...We are already seated together in Heaven. It is those who are deceived in their mind's and imaginations as to being blameless and without spot or blemish. Therefore my friend, gird up your loins, and be ready for the Day of Christ. Pray that you too will be found blameless and that OTHERS that think (but not know) they are "in: Christ wake up from their sleep and be ready for the coming of the Son of man. Whether we live, or whether we die...we live Christ. To live Christ is to KNOW Him and LOOK for His coming in anticipation, NOT FEAR. Be patient, TRUST in the LORD. Our redemption is close at hand, hope fully today, 15 August, or soon thereafter. Just "be ready" and may you be full of joy in seeing those you won to Christ in Heaven by lifting Him up here on earth. Agape

My reply

Thanks. I agree with you. Agape

Royal Seal Unearthed in City of David

8-2-05 ( A royal seal dating to the period of the First Temple has been found in an archeological dig in the City of David, adjacent to the Old City of Jerusalem. The sealís inscription has the name of Jehudi, son of Shelemiah, one of the top officials in the court of the last Judean king prior to the destruction of the First Temple, King Zedekiah. He is mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah. The seal dates from about 580 B.C.E.

The seal was found at the site...of the palace of the Judean kings, according to archaeologists under the supervision of Dr. Eilat Mazar of the Hebrew University. Several years ago, another circa-580 B.C.E. royal seal was found in the same site. It had the name of Gemaryahu, son of Shafan, who is also mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah, and was a top official in the court of King Zedekiah's predecessor, King Yehoyachim.

Incoming e-mail, Re: "Time to let go of the RAPTURE HOPE... just for a little while."

I'm so glad that you answered Ed on his article about end time events. After reading his article I was very disturbed all that night because I knew he didn't have a lot of things correct. I didn't, however, feel myself capable of setting him straight. Even my limited knowledge told me that the Lord would rapture us off the Earth before all those things happened and I didn't really need to fill my basement with canned goods for the survival of my family. I wanted to tell Ed that, but I could never have done it with the documentation and finesse that you showed. I've read your pros and cons for several years now and know that the Lord Jesus is truly guiding you in showing all us beggars where the bread is.

Thank you for your answer to Ed, I feel much better now. YBIC

My reply

Thanks. Now is NOT the time to let go of the RAPTURE HOPE, not even for an instant.

Titus 2:12-15 says, "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Jesus told us many times to WATCH. I intend to obey him. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Gold of Ophir

The tribulation is the time of "Jacob's Trouble" and so we need to keep our eyes on Jacob i.e. Israel so we can understand more clearly what is coming on the whole earth. it caught my attention when I read in your latest Pro-Con the following:

> > What about months? The Hebrew Calendar was established by Genesis 7:11, where the 2nd month, 17th day was listed as the day Noah entered the Ark and the Lord shut him in. He was in the Ark from Cheshvan 17 (the second month, Gen 7:11) to Cheshvan 27 in the following year (Gen. 8:14)

Let's look for a moment and just consider this. If this 17th day of the 2nd month that Noah and his family entered the Ark and there were only eight of them in total, , we could consider them as rare as the "gold of Ophir" when the flood was finally over and they left the Ark. "Isa 13:12says "I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir". Could this be a term to describe the number of people left on earth near the end of the great tribulation that God will save to go into the Millennium, and if so let's use this date --the 17th day of the 2nd month--as an important date and count backward 7 years. Does that time frame seem significant to you with all your study? Thank you

My reply

I can't see an ending date of Cheshvan 17. I do think the Rapture could come on Cheshvan 17, the day Noah went into the Ark and the Lord shut him in. That could be Nov. 19, 2005. He stayed in the Ark one lunar year and came out on Cheshvan 27.

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter (malqo^sh mal-koshe, the spring rain) and former rain (yo^reh, sprinkling, or autumnal showers, first rain) unto the earth."

The former rain begins Tishri 1, and is the time of the First Advent. The latter rain begins Nisan 1, and is the time of the Second Advent.

Eze 29:17 gives us "the first month, in the first day of the month, the WORD of the LORD came unto me...

Then Eze 29:21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD." We can tell that this refers to Nisan 1 in Eze. 45:18,21. Verse 18 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary". Then verse 21 says, "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover". The Passover is Nisan 14. However, Eze. 29:17,21 also shows us one reason God gave Israel two calendars. Jesus came on Tishri 1 (first day of the Civil Year) at the First Advent, and he will come on Nisan 1 (first day of the Sacred Year) at the Second Advent.

The year of the Second Advent has to be a Leap Year, because there are 7 months between Tishri 1 (the Day of Destruction) and the Second Advent on Nisan 1 (Eze. 39:12,13).

If the Second Advent would be Nisan 1 in the Leap Year 5771 (April 5, 2011), and we count back 7 years, we come to 5764 (2003/2004). This year, 2005, is still workable for the Pre-Trib Rapture, because the Great Tribulation is shortened. Av 10 is August 15, anniversary of Japan's surrender. I think the atom bombs struck Aug. 6 and 9.

According to Josephus (Wars. VI. IV. 5) and Jeremiah 52:12,13, Av 10 is the date both temples went up in clouds of smoke. Maybe we will go up in clouds on Av 10. The August 15 date was certainly emphasized (and many lives were saved), and Av 10 doesn't always coincide with August 15. It falls on August 4 in 2006, July 25 in 2007, and Aug. 11 in 2008. August 15, 2005 still looks good. So does Nov. 19 (Cheshvan 17) but that will be in 5766. It starts Oct. 4, 2005.

The first atom bomb struck on August 6. The block of time, August 6 to 15, counted by inclusive reckoning, is 10 days. I wonder if that correlates with Rev. 2:10's ten days. It says, "behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days".

If the Second Advent would be Nisan 1, in the next Leap Year 5774 (Tuesday, April 1, 2014), and we count back 7 years, we come to 5767 (2006/2007) for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Pentecost (Sivan 7, 5767) is Thursday, May 24, 2007. Av 10, 5767 is Wednesday, July 25, 2007. I'm hoping for Av 10, 5765 (Aug. 15, 2005). Agape

   Pro and Con 1231   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110

© 1996-2005, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 8-5-05