Pro and Con 1231
Gush Katif Residents Ordered to Leave After Tisha B´Av Fast
Aug 09, '05 / 4 Av 5765, By Ezra HaLevi
I hope lots of them are Messianic Jews. Their leaving Gush Katif might coincide with the Pre-Trib Rapture on Av 10, August 15, 2005.
Mark 4:28,29 says, "the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade (Resurrection Day, 30 AD), then the ear (the Pre-Trib Rapture), after that the full corn in the ear (the Pre-Wrath Rapture). But when the fruit is brought forth (i.e., on the Day of the Lord, first day of Christ's Millennial Kingdom), immediately he (Christ, wearing 'a golden crown, Rev. 14:14) putteth in the sickle (i.e., at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, Rev. 14:16), because the harvest is come."
Incoming e-mail, Re: A Question
...I have been reading your postings on Five Doves for years now.
I have never posted there before and don't really want to now as I am not an expert and don't claim to have special knowledge.
I just have a question.
First some background. I have no formal training from any church and frankly have never been in any church beyond attending them on special occasions. Most things I have learned I learned from the Lord himself through his word and the Holy Spirit leading me.
The Lord has pressed upon me something that is resolved for me personally yet is something that applies to the Church as a whole.
It has to do with choice.
I have heard many people quoting the scripture that says we will be Raptured in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in a "twinking of an eye". I am not convinced it will happen in this way.
One thing I have know about the Lord is that he has wooed me since being a little girl. Satan snatches people - God wooes them.
Where I am going with this is that I see the rapture happening for each individual by their CHOICE. The shout and trumpets will sound "Come up Hither" and then we, by our action, choose to go. God has never forcably taken his children.
As when Israel came out of wandering in the wilderness 40 years, they were given a day to enter into the promise land. When they were told by God "Behold the promise land go in and possess it" they had to go in of their own accord. They were given 1 whole day to go. The next day, when they had finally decided to trust God, the door was closed - so to speak.
I believe it will be the same with the rapture. The door to heaven will be opened up for longer than a twinkling of an eye (it might be 1 day I don't know). ALL will be invited (this is how the "Friend came hither not having a wedding garment" he of course was cast out.)
However, only the wise will make it in; not because they have confessed Jesus as Lord and believed his promises; but because they discerned their Shephard's voice they knew he had come for them.
When the rapture occurs the experience will be something so earth shakening and terrifying it will require all of your wits about you to recognize it is our LORD and step out in faith towards him.
Who knows what Satan has planned for that time. He will want to make sure all the people are confused and scared into missing the rapture. He will do everything to prevent us from going. I believe he will succeed in stopping many from going.
You will need to have a well established relationship with God to make it in with well developed communication. Therefore, I believe not very many will make it in the pre-trib rapture.
Jesus will come back with "ten thousands" of his saints. If so many are going in the pre-trib rapture why only ten thousands saints coming back with Jesus when he executes judgement upon all?
I just wanted to get another's perspective on what I have learned and you are the most learned person I have found. I omitted the scriptures referrences for the sake of brevity. Besides, I am sure you already know them by heart. If you decide you want them, just let me know.
I would really like to hear what you have to say about this if you have the time to respond. Your Sister in Christ
> > I have heard many people quoting the scripture that says we will be Raptured in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in a "twinking of an eye". I am not convinced it will happen in this way.
I Thess. 4:13-18 is about the first Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture. I Cor. 15:51-53 is about the second Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture. At that time, "we (including Paul) shall be changed (transformed). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Re: "the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption" (I Cor. 15:42). What else is needed? to "put on immortality". We, all saints, will put on immortality when we are changed "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" (the second Rapture). It doesn't actually say that the Rapture would happen in the twinkling of an eye. The change will. We are not told exactly how long the Rapture will take, but the foolish virgins won't have time to buy more oil. This limits the time somewhat.
We are told that at the 1st Rapture, Jesus will come quickly (Rev. 2:5, 3:11, 22:20). We can tell that the 2nd Rapture will happen quickly, because on THAT DAY they will be taken to the General Assembly in Heaven before the Judgment Seat of Christ convenes. Many events will take place that day, so each one probably happens within a small space of time.
Mark 13:26,27 says, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (the Sign of the Son of Man is seen after the 6th seal is broken, and when 'the great day of his wrath is come', Rev. 6:12-17). And then (tote, at the same time) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (2nd Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
Heb 12:22-24 says, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".
This is the assembly that will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ after he is given his golden crown and his millennial kingdom. This is the same day that the Marriage of the Lamb takes place. It is a day so jam-packed with events that the 2nd Rapture probably happens quickly. Think of when Elijah was caught up suddenly.
Rev. 11:16-18 says, "the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on the Day of the Lord), and wast (at the 1st Advent), and art to come (7 months later, at the 2nd Advent, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
> > Where I am going with this is that I see the rapture happening for each individual by their CHOICE. The shout and trumpets will sound "Come up Hither" and then we, by our action, choose to go. God has never forcably taken his children.
You may be right. I remember that Gen 24:58 says, "they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I WILL GO."
Hebrews 12:25 says, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven".
> > However, only the wise will make it in; not because they have confessed Jesus as Lord and believed his promises; but because they discerned their Shephard's voice they knew he had come for them.
The wise will make it, because they have confessed Jesus as Lord and therefore have received the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his."
The wise virgins' lamps are full of oil and lit. They are certainly Jesus' sheep. They will hear his voice. John 10:27 says, "MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I KNOW THEM, and they follow me".
Even though the lamps of the foolish virgins had been lit, they had so little oil of the Holy Spirit that their lamps were literally sputtering. Jesus told them, "I know you not" (Mt. 25:12). We need to know the Lord, and have enough oil of the Spirit of Christ in us, then he will know us.
We need to use I John 1:9, "confess our known sins since we accepted Christ, so he will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Then, instead of quenching the Spirit, we will be filled with the Spirit. At this point, we know the good shepherd, we will hear his voice, and he knows us, so we will follow him.
> > Jesus will come back with "ten thousands" of his saints. If so many are going in the pre-trib rapture why only ten thousands saints coming back with Jesus when he executes judgement upon all?"
Jude 1:14 says, "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands (murias, a ten thousand; by extension a "myriad" or indefinite number) of his saints".
I Thess. 3:13 makes it clear. it says, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints."
Zec 14:4,5 is also clear. It says, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and ALL the saints with thee."
Oh yes, one more thing about how fast the Rapture could take place. John heard Christ's trumpet voice saying, "Come up hither", and "IMMEDIATELY" he became in the spirit in Heaven (Rev. 4:1,2; 1:10f). Agape
Incoming e-mail, Re: Winter in Jerusalem
When does winter begin in Jerusalem? When is the the former rain? and the latter rain? I know you have discussed this before, but I cannot remember.
It was fall on Iyar 17, in the days of Noah. That was the the day that God shut the door of the ark. That would make sense to gather all the food into the ark at the end of harvest time for the people and animals. "As the days of Noah" Iyar 17, the second month, seventeenth day was in the fall. At Passover Exodus, God changed the calendar by six months, moved time ahead, to commemorate the end of Israel's captivity and in memory of the first Passover, so that they would never forget God's mercy. When the calendar was moved up six months, Iyar became a spring time month. God always "balances things out." He is very consistent and "nothing that he does not tell his prophets before hand." This 6 months
may be "balanced out" in the form of the "shortened tribulation."
In the days of Noah, the second month, seventeenth day, was in the fall. The second month is counted as the eighth month, now. But, in the days of Noah, Iyar was the 2nd month. The eighth month, Cheshvan 17th, this year will be a sabbath, November 19th, 2005. That is the anniversary of the day God shut the door of the ark. The ark rested on Mt Ararat on the 17th day of the seventh month. It was also on the seventeeth day, that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea. Seventeen in biblical numbers represents Victory, complete victory in Jesus Christ, and the perfection of spiritual order. Seventeenth day of the month was Firstfruit Offering, Jacob left Laban's country, after 17 years. (Vallowe's Bilical Mathematics and Bullinger's Number in Scripture.)
Noah came out of the ark on the 2nd month, 27th day(1 year,10 days after being shut in) in the fall, also. Reasonable. The ground had dried, and plants were producing food again for the crew from the ark.
When does winter begin in Jerusalem? Former rain? Latter rain?
Could the 2nd month, 17th day, as it was in the day of Noah, be the Rapture on the Sabbath? That would be November 18th/19th, 2005. Friday, the 18th, at 6:PM begins the Saturday Sabbath, the 19th. Jerusalem is about 8 hours ahead of Central Standard Time. So, about 3:45 to 4:PM, Friday, November 18th, would be about midnight in Jerusalem, on the Sabbath(Chesvan 17).
Would this still be summer. Or would winter have already started?
Thank you, for allowing all our questions.
> > When does winter begin in Jerusalem?
Unger's Bible Dictionary says that winter (Heb. usually horeph, strictly autumn; Gr. cheimon, the rainy season) includes part of autumn and the seasons of seedtime and cold, extending from the beginning of September to the beginning of March.
Thus, there would only be two seasons, summer and winter. However, Gen 8:22 says, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."
Maybe our autumn was their "seedtime," and our spring was their "harvest." Wheat was sown in the fall, and harvest began at Pentecost in the spring. However, the original words for former and latter rain suggest the spring and autumn.
> > When is the the former rain? and the latter rain?
The former rain began Tishri 1. The latter rain began Nisan 1. Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter (malqo^sh, 'From H3953; the spring rain'), and former rain (yo^reh, 'Active participle of H3384; sprinkling; hence a sprinkling [or autumnal showers]') unto the earth." At the First Advent, Jesus came as the former rain on Tishri 1. He will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1.
Note: De: 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of the land in HIS DUE SEASON, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN." Joel 2:23 says, "rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, THE FORMER RAIN, AND THE LATTER RAIN IN THE FIRST MONTH." It means the first month, the first day, because chodesh means both month and new moon. The first day of the month is considered the new moon. In the Bible, if no day number is listed, we are to assume that it is the first of the month, which is the time of the New Moon. James 5:7,8 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN. Be ye also patient; establish your hearts; for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."
James 5:7-9 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (proŻimos, 'From G4404; dawning, that is, [by analogy] autumnal [showering, the first of the rainy season']) and latter (opsimos, 'From G3796; later, that is, vernal [showering]: - latter') rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." Vernal is from the Latin ver, spring. The vernal equinox is about March 21, in the spring.
> > It was fall on Iyar 17, in the days of Noah.
Iyar is the second month in the Sacred Calendar. It follows Nisan in the spring. Cheshvan is the second month in the Civil Calendar. It follows Tishri in the fall. In Noah's day, the Sacred Calendar had not yet started, so I think the second month was Cheshvan. To put this all in perspective, Noah died two years before Abraham was born. Moses had not yet been born.
> > Seventeenth day of the month was Firstfruit Offering
I think the Crucifixion was on Thursday, Nisan 13, the preparation of the passover. John 19:14,15 says, "IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER (i.e., Nisan 13, the day before Passover, Nisan 14) the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him."
If the Crucifixion was on Thursday, the preparation of the Passover, Nisan 13, the Passover was on Friday, Nisan 14, Unleavened Bread was on Saturday, Nisan 15, and Firstfruits was on Sunday, Nisan 16.
Mt. 12:40 says, "as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The 3 days and 3 nights were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday, (night then day), and Sunday (night).
> > Could the 2nd month, 17th day, as it was in the day of Noah, be the Rapture on the Sabbath?
It seems possible, because the Rapture is as the days of Noah.
> > Would this still be summer. Or would winter have already started? It couldn't be summer. It would either be called autumn or winter. Agape
Incoming e-mail, Re: A Case for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture / Philip and the EthiopianOfficial
From: Auckland New Zealand
I have been inspired to do a study on this item and found it to be very rewarding especially at this particular time with all the activities in Gaza.
I hope you find it interesting too, because I believe that it is extremely relevant at this moment. There is much on the news about the hotel that the settlers called the "Fortress", with a corresponding reference in the quoted Scripture below.
As of today we have only --- days to go before the Jews in Gaza will be removed from a land that Christ said was theirs. This is an extremely important development in the prophetic development before Christs return. There are biblical warnings that those who break up Israel will receive the wrath of God shortly there after. The discourse is not complete as I find the more I dig into it, the more is revealed.
What relevence do you attach to the situation?
By His grace. Yours sincerely
A Case for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture / Philip and the Ethiopian Official.
What was Gods very important reason for giving us the story of Philip meeting the Ethiopian Official on the Gaza Road and Philips consequential rapture afterwards? Acts 8. 26 to 40.
The earlier recorded raptures of Enoch, Isaiah and Christ all are highly significant with regard to the coming Tribulation Period. Where does the case of this apparently insignificant one fit in if at all.? Reference to this extract form Holy Scripture is highly significant especially today because of the prominence of the Gaza Strip ( or road ?) in all the latest news reports. It is also the place where Samson brought down the pagan temple and is an area that has been given by the Lord to Israel. The Arabs are occupying it illegally. Reference to Sampson, blinded could represent the deceived and blind nominal Christians of today who eventually bring about the destruction of the pagan religions of the world as he did at the time by destroying the two pillars in their temple.
1. It is the only record of a case of the rapture occurring in the post-Christ New Testament era, so it will definitely be relevant to our era.
2. It appears to be of short duration and distance ( Occurring to a believer who returned very soon ( as will the Pre Trib Saints ) and who obeyed the instructions he received blindly and with great haste and faith) and the only one recorded where the participant went to a "castle", or fortress ( a place of protection or Christs busom during the Tribulation ?) the town of Azotus.
3. Philip, a lover of horses ( fast movement ) and one of the first seven deacons (completion), was instructed by an angel to go to Gaza meaning "the strong place".
4. On the road under the guidance of the Holy Spirit he was directed to the Ethiopian eunuch, ( an incomplete person representing incomplete believers and passionless as of todays typical nominal Christians ?) an important official in charge of the treasury ( Lots of wealth like today's nominal Christians ) of the Queen of Sheba,
5. He was a nominal or partial believer at that time and had gone to Jerusalem to worship in the temple of Solomon and was on his way HOME.
In his carriage he was studying the Book of the PROPHET ( prophesy ) Isaiah concerning the suffering of Christ and was reading Isa.53: 7&8.."no one will be able to tell about His descendants because His life on earth has come to an END" ( End of Church Age of today?) The eunuch had the scriptures like so many of our church going brethren, but was not entirely committed until that morning.
6.The eunuch asked Philip to explain the scriptures to him, and when they came to a place with water asked to be baptised. ( Became enthusiastic from luke warm to passionate after the Pte Trib Rapture ?)
7. Philip was then ruptured away and the eunuch went on his way "full of joy." to await his own resurrection later.
It would appear that Philip represents the pre-Tribulation saints who provide a testimony to the left-behind nominal Christians or unorthodox church ( outside the Jewish community of Philips day and outside the regular church community of this period )
Acts 8, 26 to 40
And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose ( Obediently with great haste, not questioning the command ) and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
(The Holy Spirit chose this particular piece of Scripture for a good reason to be revealed when the time was right as of now.)
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot ( The Lord comes for his saints in a chariot). And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Thanks for reminding me of this incident. Act 8:37-40 is a good example of what "harpazo" means.
"Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY (HARPAZO, to seize, catch away or up, pluck, pull, take by force, i.e., the Rapture, as 'caught up' in I Thess. 4:17) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus (another name for Ashdod, meaning a strong place): and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." Agape
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