Pro and Con 1234

Posted 8-14-05

Ed, HOW TO READ THE REVELATION, (re: Dianne Talsma), from the Five Doves site

Ed (11 Aug 2005)
"HOW TO READ THE REVELATION. (re: Dianne Talsma)"

Greetings to you too Dianne;

I think discussing/debating is good as long as we stay open minded and stay true to the purpose of finding the truth of God.

I will try my best to answer your questions.

-->How Seal 5 can be the start of the reign of the beast when the beast isn't mentioned until Seal 7, Trumpet 7?

I think it is plain to see that the book of Revelation was written in such a way that it is hard for the readers to understand. I believe it was written that way for the purpose of God. If God wanted it to be easily comprehensible then he would have made it so.

God deliberately made the book of revelation that way, so that it is easy to misunderstand and develope false doctrines, for the purpose of God (God sometimes sends strong delusions), and so that only those who are given the wisdom of God will understand the book correctly, that too for the purpose of God. God does not reveal everything to one servant but only enough for the purpose given to him.

The key to understand the revelation is hidden but it can be found. If you see that key, everything will fall into place and fit with other verses in the Bible.

The key is to find and identify the same event that occurs several times in the revelation and that is the 'Return of the Christ/Rapture'.

If you see that key, then you can dissect the revelation using that key to find that Revelation is not written, start to finish, as one instance of sequential events. Rather, the same time frame repeats three times and written in such a manner that it is easy for the readers to falsely conclude that the events are different but actually they are not. (For instance, at first glance, the Judgment of Trumpets looks to be a different event from the Judgment of Bowls but they are the same event.)

The first instance of Return of the Christ/Rapture (from now on referred to as just Return & Rapture) occurs at Revelation 7:9-17 where multitude in white come out of the Great Tribulation singing hallelujah; God showed only this vision to John which is just after the Return & Rapture but not the actual spectacle of the return of the Christ and the Rapture.

Onto your question about the beast,

If the 5th seal is about the Reign of the Beast, then just as in the first instance of the same time frame which is from Revelation 6 - 11, same events should occur after the Reign of the Beast in the second instance, too.

In Revelation 13 through 14:13, we see the famous description of the Reign of the Beast. After this what do we see?

BINGO! the Return & Rapture. Rev 14:14-16 describes the event wonderfully. Jesus sits on the cloud and swings his sickle to harvest. Jesus returns on the cloud and gathers his saints from the cloud onto him. This is the Rapture.

It omitted the 6th seal but it still sequentially agrees with the first instance.

Ok now, then after the Return & Rapture, we should see God's Judgment just as in the first instance. In the first instance, after the Return & Rapture, Trumpet Judgments followed.

What do we see?

Bingo! again. Right after the Return & Rapture, 7 bowls Judgments follow. The first instance was kind of like an overview, seal by seal. In the second instance, the 5th seal - reign of the Beast is rendered with more detail.

The 3rd instance of Return & Rapture is the wedding banquet(which is actually what happens right after the rapture) which is after the destruction of Babylon. Compare with the second instance in which the Return & Rapture follows the fall of Babylon (Rev 14:8).

After the wedding banquet, Jesus descends down on a white horse with his army to destroy the army gathered by the Beast. If you look at the second instance at the 6th bowl, you see the river of Euphrates dry up to prepare the way for the Kings to gather at the Amargeddon to fight. So we can conclude that Jesus will descend with his army at 6th trumpet/bowl to destroy the army gathered by the Beast at the amargeddon.

Indeed, at that war Jesus captures the Beast and the False prophet and throw them into the lake of fire.

In the 3rd instance, after the wedding banquet, it jumps to the 6th Trumpet/Bowl Plague, but still in correct sequence.

So you see, all instances sequentially line up without coflicts.

Here's the breakdown of the Book of the Revelation.

1st instance: Rev 6 ~ 11
2nd instance: Rev 12 ~ 16
3rd instance: Rev 17 ~ the end

To answer your question, God deliberately omitted mentioning the beast when describing the 5th seal in the first instance, for the purpose of God. That's why you don't see it. But, if you unlock the key just as explained above, you can see that the 5th seal and Reign of the Beast are the same event.

And the beast can be before Seal 6? Having charted the Seals, I consider the Seals as being in sequence, never going backward. I think the saints of the last 2000 years have gone through enough martyrdom to qualify them as living in a "tribulation".

I think the answer to the first question should answer this question.

And again if Seal 1 is AFTER the Great Tribulation, why John ONLY use the term "great tribulation" at Seal 6?

The Great Tribulation starts with the opening of Seal 1. The place where John mentions GT is when he says about the great multitude that come out of GT. John saw the vision of seal 1 through seal 6 and then he saw the multitude that come out of GT therefore, it's obvious that Seal 1 through Seal 6 IS the Great Tribulation and then he saw the multitude that come out of that GT.

The message of Yeshua/YHVH still is available to people in Seal 7, Trumpet 7 = Revelation 14:6-13.

The answer to the first question should answer this question. Rev 14:6-13 is a part of the second instance. This is before the Return of the Christ which is at Rev 14:14, so the door is still open and the gospel is still proclaimed, during the Reign of the Beast.

After I discovered how to read the Revelation, (I don't know for what purpose God allowed this to me, yet) I find everything fall into place and eliminate the necessity of ignoring any verses.

And one more thing, according to your reasoning, the Tribulation of the Beast is not part of the Great Tribulation. This can't be. Refer to Book of Mathew. The Great Tribulation will be upon us when you see the Abomination of Desolation set up (by the Antichrist, Beast).

The Tribulation of the Beast is the MAIN EVENT of the Great Tribulation and what I just explained regarding how to read the Revelation confirms it. Ed

My reply

Thanks. I never thought of it that way. However, there are two Raptures, the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I'll have to mull that over. Here is the way I "read the revelation".

Revelation is like a prophetic miracle play. It's dramatic. It has a title, Director, script-dictator, scribe, narrator, cast of actors, extras, action, two-story set, props, Setting, Introduction, Preview, three Acts and a Finale.

TITLE: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:1)


JESUS CHRIST, DIRECTOR, PROPHET, SCRIPT DICTATOR AND ACTOR He "sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (1:1) "Write" (1:11,19) (2:1,8,12,18) (3:1,7,12,14) (10:4) (14:13) (19:9) (21:5) JESUS' MONOLOGUE; (2:1-3:22)

JOHN, NARRATOR, SCRIBE AND ACTOR "Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (1:2)

EXTRAS: men and angels

SET: Two-story, Earth below, Heaven above, elevator between the stories, props

SETTING: when the Pre-Trib Rapture is "at hand", maybe 10 days before it takes place (2:10) Almost the whole script is bookended by "THE TIME IS AT HAND" (i.e., the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture)
First chapter: "THE TIME IS AT HAND" (1:3).
Last chapter: "THE TIME IS AT HAND" (22:10).
Surely I come quickly" (22:20). He comes quickly at the Rapture; "behold, I come quickly" (3:11)


JOHN INTRODUCES JESUS CHRIST (1:4-7). Verse 4 says, "John to the seven churches which are in Asia (meaning muddy, i.e., on Earth): Grace be unto you, and peace, from him (Jesus) which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come" (at the Second Advent).

JESUS TELLS US WHO HE IS: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (1:8)


On Patmos, which means mortal (i.e., John was mortal and on Earth)

JOHN ACTED OUT THE RAPTURE: "I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Day of Christ, i.e., the day of the Rapture), and heard behind me a great voice (of Jesus), as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Lord of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament) (1:10,11). John heard Christ's trumpet voice (4:1 tells us that it said, "COME UP HITHER." John became in the spirit and was lifted up to Heaven. He then describes the scene he sees in Heaven. The candlesticks (churches) are in Heaven. Jesus is standing in the middle of the raptured saints. He has the 7 star performers in his hand for he has just snatched them up.

JOHN DESCRIBED CHRIST as he saw him in Heaven: "in the midst of the seven candlesticks (churches, 1:20) one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle (gold is a symbol of Deity). His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow (like "the Ancient of days" in Dan. 7:9); and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass" (1:13-15) (Brass is a sign of judgment, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (1Pe 4:17). The wise virgins are caught up in the Rapture. The foolish virgins are left behind at the 1st Rapture. By the Pre-Wrath Rapture, they will have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14).


ACT TWO: THE THINGS THAT ARE: at the 1st Rapture


"COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER" (4:1); i.e., after the Pre-Trib Rapture

CIRCLE CLOCKS: The seals, trumpets and vials are organized by circle clocks. Draw as large a circle as will fit on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. In the large circle draw 6 smaller circles in a ring. Make them as large as possible. In the middle of those circles draw a 7th circle, as large as will fit. That is the first circle clock. Label each of the 6 circles Seal 1, Seal 2, etc. The 7th circle in the middle is Seal 7, but label it elsewhere and draw a line to it. Why? Because there is another circle clock in that 7th circle. Label these 6 outer circles Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, etc. In circle 7, draw in one more circle clock. Label it's circles Vial 1, Vial 2, etc. Now it's easy to see that the trumpets come out of the 7th seal and the vials of God's wrath come out of the 7th trumpet judgment.

Jesus is not given the Title Deed of the Earth, with its 7 seals until AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture (See Rev. 4:1; 5: 7). Therefore, no seals could possibly be broken until after the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 4:1. The breaking of the seals follows Rev. 5, the scene in Heaven after the Pre-Trib Rapture.


PARENTHETIC PORTIONS: we need to look for matchmarks to see where to place them in time Between the 6th and 7th seals, trumpets and vials are parenthetic portions to give details necessary to understand the action that is taking place consecutively.

Between seal 6 and 7:
6:12-17 MATCHMARK: "the great day of his wrath is come", i.e., it's the Day of the Lord 7:1-17 MATCHMARK: "These are they which came out of great tribulation", i.e., it's the Pre-wrath Rapture

Between trumpet 6 and 7
10:1-11 MATCHMARK: "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel...the mystery of God should be finished", i.e., it's the Day of the Lord
11:1-14 MATCHMARK: "I will give power unto my two witnesses", i.e., it's the 1st half of the Tribulation

Between vial 6 and 7
16:13-16 MATCHMARK: "spirits of devils...gather them to the battle of THE GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY...Armageddon", i.e., preparation for the coming Second Advent of Christ, after which Armageddon takes place

We need to look for matchmarks to find out the settings of these chapters too:

CHAPTER 12: "the great dragon was cast out", i.e., Mid-Trib (12:6,14)

First half of the Tribulation (13:1-10); " heads...ten of blasphemy", i.e., the Beast
Last half, the Great Tribulation (13:11-18); "another beast...he spake as a dragon...he exerciseth all the power of the first beast", i.e., the False Prophet

CHAPTER 14: 144,000 "were redeemed FROM THE EARTH...Babylon is fallen", i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture is just before Babylon is destroyed on the Day of the God's wrath

CHAPTER 17: "ten kings...have received no kingdom as yet...they that ARE WITH HIM ARE called, and chosen, and faithful" (17:14), i.e., it is right after the Pre-Trib Rapture


Destruction of the Harlot Church after she is moved to the desert, Babylon, Iraq


CHAPTER 19, "I heard a great voice of much people in heaven...the marriage of the Lamb is come", i.e., it's the scene in Heaven on the Day of the Lord RETURN OF CHRIST AND HIS ARMY OF SAINTS (19:11-16), i.e., the Second Advent BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON (19:17-21), follows Second Advent

"judgment was given unto them", i.e., SATAN CHAINED (20:1-3), i.e., the Judgment Seat of Christ at the beginning of the Millennium


"the time is at hand" (22:10)
"behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me" (22:12)
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last (22:13)
"I am the root (YHWH) and the offspring (Jesus) of David" (22:16).
"the Spirit and the bride say, Come" (22:17)

Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly. Amen" (22:20).
John signs off with, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" (22:20,21).

Incoming e-mail, Re: Worldwide SHOFAR BLAST PLANNED


The above link talks about a worldwide Shofar blast on a certain day at a certain time. People all over the world are encouraged to blow the shofar then. Also, I heard today on a TV news report that many are hoping for DIVINE INTERVENTION to stop the Gaza evacuation. Maranatha!

My reply

I also found mention of this at:
The shofar has been traditionally used by Judah. However, there is another type of horn that must also be sounded....two hammered silver trumpets were sounded in unison in ancient Israel, their united foice served to gather the whole congregation of Israel...

In these last days we need to gather all Israel--Judah and Ephraim.

All Israel needs to better understand the meaning of Yom Teruah. We need to see that the TWIN SILVER TRUMPETS were to be sounded for certain events:

1) To announce the feasts and new moons
2) To gather the troops for battle
3) To warn of imminent danger
4) To assemble all of the people
5) To be remembered by the Almighty when we are in the midst of battles (Numbers 10:1-10).

Because Judah represents only one of the two houses of Israel, they have not focused on the importance of the twin silver trumpets and have instead used the shofar.

The Father is now calling Ephraim and Judah to come together. Thus it is imperative that we utilize the ancient implements he commanded us to use to call forth His people. (emphasis mine)
Num 10:1-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, AND FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door (symbol of a Rapture, Rev. 3:8; Mt. 24:32-34) of the tabernacle of THE CONGREGATION. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

Here, the princes of Israel are the 12 patriarchs. In Rev. 4:1-4, we see that there are 24 elders. I think this includes the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Isarel. They sit on thrones right after the Pre-Trib Rapture.

I think this passage has more meaning than most recognize. There are two Raptures, the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 4:1) and the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14). They are the first trump (I Thess. 4:16,17) and the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52).

When the first silver trumpet sounds the first time, the elders are gathered, and the wise virgins are caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Rev. 4:1 says, "I (John, one of the elders) looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice (Christ's, Rev. 1:9.10) which I heard was as (symbolic language) it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; WHICH SAID, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (after the first Rapture).

On the Day of the Lord, at the end of the shortened Tribulation, the first trumpet will sound again to call the Bride saints from one end of Heaven to the other to the General Assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). Mt. 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

Then the second trumpet sounds to call the Tribulation saints up from Earth. Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." This is the time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Agape

Ten Virgins

Wes K (12 Aug 2005)

I was looking through the web site,"", yesterday and came upon a question about the ten virgins in Matthew 25: 1 - 13, and this is the answer that was given.

"The Parable of the Ten Virgins is not indicative of a "Partial Rapture". The parable occurs within the context of the Olivet Discourse in which Jesus is speaking to the Jewish people who will go thru the Tribulation. The parable explains the condition of Israel's converts during that time, as well as their relationship to the Church. These virgins are the attendants at the wedding, not multiple brides. There is only one bride of Christ and that is the Church. The virgins who are prepared for the bridegroom to come are those who are saved during the Tribulation Period. While both the Church and the Tribulation Saints, having trusted Jesus Christ as their Saviour, qualify to be called the people of God, the Church is accorded a unique relationship to the Lord as His Bride.

The fact that five virgins are prepared, while five our not, does not indicate that half of humanity will be saved, but that there are two types of people, the saved and the lost. The lamps refer to their lives, which are either prepared or unprepared. The oil prepares them to give forth light. It symbolizes the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the regenerated individual."

If anyone wishes to read the rest of the answer, it can be done on the web site given under questions. I have always misunderstood the interpretation of this parable, and thought that this might be of help to others as well.

Ed Hindson is the teacher on The King Is Coming which is a weekly TV program broadcast throughout the world. He is a chancellor at Liberty University and is a dynamic teacher. The web site is very good, and questions can be submitted on it.

Keep looking up!
Wes K.

My reply

I think the 10 virgins are all believers. The foolish ones still call upon the "Lord" (Mt. 25:11).

1Co 12:3 says, "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." Their lamps are sputtering, but they do have lamps that are lit. Agape

What happened to Jesus' haftarah?

By Hananel Mack, Aug. 12, 05
Donna Danna (13 Aug 2005)

According to this article, the Bible verses in the Old Testament that refer to Jesus are not read in the synagogue today and neither is the Bible passage in Isaiah 61: 1 that Jesus read out loud in the synagogue in Nazareth. "Generally speaking, Jews excluded from the haftarot those verses on which Christians based the principles of their religious faith."


...The earliest source we have on that custom is the New Testament. According to the narrative in Luke (4:16-21), Jesus returns to his hometown, Nazareth and, on the Sabbath, he goes to the synagogue where he reads from the Torah. He is then given the Book of Isaiah. Jesus opens the book and reads the passage that begins "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me" (Isaiah 61:1). Following the haftarah, he delivers a sermon in which he argues that in that reading, the verse was fulfilled in the ears of the congregants in other words, the prophet's words about a mortal anointed by God are realized in the person of Jesus....

Deliberate exclusion
A perusal of the list of haftarot read today reveals that the chapter that Jesus recited in the synagogue in Nazareth is not read on any of the days in the Jewish calendar on which a haftarah follows the Torah reading that is, on none of the Sabbaths nor on any of the major holidays or fast days....

Generally speaking, Jews excluded from the haftarot those verses on which Christians based the principles of their religious faith. Thus, all of the customs related to the haftarah readings omit the passage in Isaiah whose focus is the well-known verse, Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son" (7:14), because it is the foundation of the Christian belief in the concept of the Virgin Mary and the virgin birth of Jesus. The term "virgin" is translated as such in the Septaguint and that is how Christians explicate the verse to this very day.

Another crucial passage in Christian doctrine is the text that opens with "Behold, my servant shall deal prudently" (Isaiah 52:13), which depicts the servant who personally suffers for the sins of humanity and whose greatness and stature are eventually recognized by all. This chapter as well is not read in any synagogue; the same holds true for Isaiah 42:1-4, which, although not generally recited, are documented in a few rare traditions. Their exclusion is due to their appearance in Matthew (12:18-21).

The same principle is applied in the case of the "Christological" passages outside the Book of Isaiah. On the second day of Rosh Hashanah, the haftarah that is read is one of the most wonderful chapters in the Prophets Jeremiah 31. It stops at the famous words that have become part of the Jewish liturgy today: "Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:20). It is no mere coincidence that the haftarah ends here and does not continue with the next few verses, to the promise that Jeremiah utters regarding the new covenant that God will draw up in the future with his people one of the most commonly quoted passages in the New Testament....

Similarly, the haftarah list excludes Hosea 11:1: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt," because Matthew uses that verse to explain why the infant Jesus is taken to Egypt and then brought to the Holy Land at his heavenly father's summons....

Another passage that has been excluded is Malachi 3:1: "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me" (see also Matthew 11: 10, Mark 2:2, Luke 7:27 and John 3:28). And one could think of more examples....

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