Pro and Con 1239

Posted 9-7-05

CROSS IN THE SKY APPEARS OVER THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING AT THE LAUNCH OF NEW CHRISTIAN CHANNEL FOR NEW YORK

Witnesses Believe It Was Sign Of God’s Blessing On This New Broadcasting Outreach
By Dan Wooding
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s05090010.htm

NEW YORK CITY, NY (ANS) -- It was just before MIDNIGHT Thursday, August 31, when a glowing cross suddenly appeared in the darkened sky above the towering Empire State Building in New York City....

My comment

Aug. 31 was Wednesday. That was just 2 days after Katrina hit the Gulf coast.

Storm surge the fatal blow for New Orleans

Levees fail to hold back water By Peggy Mihelich - Sept 3, 2005
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/orleans.levees/

As Katrina moved over land Monday the water it brought surged into Lake Pontchartrain....

A day later, the straining levees could not hold back the additional water and they broke in three places -- along the Industrial Canal, the 17th Street Canal, and the London Street Canal -- allowing water to pour into the city. (Map: See where the levees' broke)

The lake, which normally is 1 foot above sea level, peaked at 8.6 feet above sea level...

Re: Evacuation

04sep05 - 'Horrordome' finally evacuated (it was finished Saturday, Sept. 3, 2005 (29 Av, 5765).
http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,16488151%255E1702,00.html

My comment

That's interesting, since 29 Av is ONE MONTH BEFORE 29 ELUL, THE EVE OF THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS, Tishri 1, 5766 (Oct. 4, 2005).

Incoming e-mail, Re: shortened tribulation

I considered what you said about the shortened days. You would agree that the scripture you are refering to in Matt 24:22 has to conform to all other scripture on the subject. Daniel 9:27 gives an exact length of the tribulation (7 years) and tells in the middle of the 7 years satan makes his move for the final 42 months Rev 13:5 also Rev 12:6. Daniel and Revelation go together perfectly for laying out the duration of the tribulation period. The scriptures tell us years, months and days. The Matt 24:22 has to mean the daylight hours are shortened and there is more night. Considering all that is happening with the sun, moon and stars during this period of time it is the most probable answer. Saying that the number of days are shortened is not allowed by these other scriptures mentioned above.

As far as the Hosea 6 verse it is a wonderful promise that is partly fulfilled and we will see total fulfillment soon. I have a Hebrew calendar in an NIV bible from Zondervan and it says that month 1 on the sacred in Nisan (Abib) Passover (Spring Feasts) is the latter rains. That is why in the NKJV Hosea 6:3 shows He comes to us as the latter rain first. It is no mistake the verse says latter rain first and early rain second. The early rain will be when Yeshua comes to us during the Fall Feasts in the 7th month of Tishri. Then He will fulfill all the fall feasts. Trumpets, Atonment, Tabernacles. He came the first time as the latter rain as the Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7).

I do not send you this as an intellectual pursuit but as a diligent seeking after the truth of the Most High GOD. I do beleive we should not be guessing at the time of HIS coming to us but rather we should KNOW when it is at the door. with love

My reply

> > The Matt 24:22 has to mean the daylight hours are shortened and there is more night.

Mt. 24:21,22 says,"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

How would more night and less daylight save the elect? Mt. 24:22 (ISV) says, "If those days had not been limited, no life would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be limited."

The word kolobooŻ, translated "shortened" in the KJV and "limited" in the ISV, is said by Strong's Concordance to be "From a derivative of the base of G2849 to dock, that is, (figuratively) abridge: - shorten."

I don't think that a number of days will be dropped out of Time. I think that the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will strike Earth before the 1260 or 1290 days are up.

To me, the number of days to the Day of Destruction will be docked, shortened. Only that could save the elect. I'm guessing that if the two asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 would not hit on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, and hit later, Earth would get hit nearly square on instead of their coming in at an oblique angle.

The mountain burning with fire will hit the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:3-5). The blazing star will destroy Babylon. Eze 39:6 adds, "And I will send a fire on Magog (area of Russia), and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD." Maybe the asteroids will come in over Russia and strike Earth at the Mediterranean Sea and at Babylon.

> > Saying that the number of days are shortened is not allowed by these other scriptures mentioned above.

To realize that the number of days is truly shortened, one would need to know first the original number of days planned. Otherwise, one wouldn't know that the number of days to the catastrophe were shortened.

> > a Hebrew calendar in an NIV bible from Zondervan and it says that month 1 on the sacred in Nisan (Abib) Passover (Spring Feasts) is the latter rains. That is why in the NKJV Hosea 6:3 shows He comes to us as the latter rain first.

The calendar is correct. Tishri 1 is the time the former rain starts, and Nisan 1 is the time the latter rain starts, as in Unger's Bible Dictionary. I think Jesus was born on Tishri 1 and will return on Nisan 1, the first day of the Hebrew Regnal and Sacred Year. Therefore, I think he came as the former rain at the First Advent, and he will come as the latter rain at the Second Advent.

> > He came the first time as the latter rain as the Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7).

Think of him coming as a baby, not when he came to Jerusalem the last time to be crucified. Agape

My reply to Incoming e-mail, omitted because of length

> > try to keep an open mind. I'm no bible scholar, but it seems strange to me that I've amassed so much in so short of a time.

There is plenty on the Internet, for and against, about the false doctrine Universalism, so it takes very little time in these days to get up to speed. Just be sure to read both sides before you swallow this doctrine.

In the following, all quotes are from the KJV unless noted otherwise. Universalists prefer to use Young's translation because of his translation of the Greek aion as age. Nevertheless, the KJV is my preferred study Bible.

First things first, Jesus is God in the flesh. II Cor. 5:9 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH King of Israel), and I am the last (YHWH of hosts, his Redeemer, i.e., Christ); and beside me there is no God."

Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child (Jesus) is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

John 1:1-3 says, "In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and THE WORD (Jesus, God's spokesman) WAS GOD." Verse 14 adds, "And the Word (i.e., God) was made flesh (Jesus, the two-natured God/man), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Rev 1:17,18 says, "when I (John) saw him (Jesus), I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first (YHWH King of Israel) and the last (YHWH of hosts, his Redeemer): I am he that liveth (was resurrected), and was dead (3 days and 3 nights after the Crucifixion); and, behold, I am alive for EVERMORE, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Green understood Greek very well. Under the Greek words of Rev. 1:18 in his Interlinear Bible, he said, "alive I am TO THE AGES OF THE AGES" (eis tous aionas ton aionon). In his English translation, he said, "Look! I am alive FOREVER AND EVER."

God is "alive FOREVER AND EVER." That means for all eternity, and it uses the basic word aion. The words "eis tous aionas ton aionon" mean forever and ever.

The Literal Version (LITV) says, "the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living FOREVER AND EVER. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death." The Geneva Bible says, "am aliue, but I was dead: and beholde, I am aliue FOR EVERMORE, Amen: and I haue the keyes of hell and of death."

Of the 16 New Testament Bibles on my e-Sword, only the following speak of ages. All the rest have a word that means forever, eternal.

The Analytical Translation (ALT) says, "the living One. And I became dead. And look! _I_ am living into THE AGES OF THE AGES [fig., FOREVER AND EVER]. Amen! And I have the keys of death and of the realm of the dead [Gr., hades]. The translator inserted both explanations, not me.

(Darby) and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to THE AGES OF AGES, and have the keys of death and of hades."

The Weymough New Testament (WNT) says, "I died; but I am now alive until THE AGES OF THE AGES, and I have the keys of the gates of Death and of Hades!"

Young's Literal Translation (YLT) says, "he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to THE AGES OF THE AGES. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death."

I'll stick with the KJV here. It makes better sense to me than the YLT. It's comforting to know that God is alive evermore.

> > The distinction I'm making is not that there is and end to our eternal life, but there are ends to "ages". Each of these ages ends with the coming of Christ.

As I see it, up to now, there are three 2000-year ages, The Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews, and the Age of the Church. There are also ages to come. Eph 2:7 says, "That in the AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Eph 3:5 says, "Which in OTHER AGES was (in the past) not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit".

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen" (meaning So be it).

Green also translates Eph 3:21's "aionos ton aionon" as "THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen."

I think there are seven 1000-year days and three 2000-year ages in Time, from Adam's judgment and expulsion from the Garden of Eden to the Great White Throne Judgment.

> > The last age, at the Final Judgement will end these ages and then the New Heaven and Earth are created. At that time, Death and Hades are "thrown into the Pit", so Hell will still be there, what I'm working out is will the people there be able to get out before the Pit is closed for good.

No. The Great White Throne Judgment is not open to appeals. The books will be opened and final judgment made.

The two pieces of asteroid in Rev. 8:8,10 will strike Earth and make a shambles of it. 2Pe 3:12 says, "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God (Day of God's Wrath), wherein the heavens (atmospheric) being on fire shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall MELT with fervent heat?"

At the beginning of his kingdom, Jesus will need to refresh the face of the Earth and her atmosphere. That is probably the new heavens and the new Earth. If, as you said, "Hell will still be there," the rest of Earth will still be there. Weren't the Hebrews promised the Earth forever?

> > this is different than anything I've been taught in the past.

I am Baptist too, and to my knowledge, they don't teach it. That is because Universalism is wrong.

According to Strong's Concordance, the word aion is "properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end)".

Aion can mean an age, perpetuity, eternal, forever, world without end. The meaning is determined by the context and the rest of Scripture. The same situation arises in English. If a man said, "I want to tie my own tie," you wouldn't think he meant a railroad tie. The meaning would be determined by the context. You couldn't tie a railroad tie in a knot. That would be absurd.

> > Christ's kingdom is an "everlasting" one, will endure "forever," etc. (Heb. 6:20; 2 Pet. 1:11; Heb. vii.17, 21; Rev. 11:15, etc.); and yet the kingdom of Christ, of heaven, will cease when it "shall be delivered up to God the Father, and God becomes all in all" (1 Cor. 15:24, 25).

Don't lose sight of the fact that God is in Christ. Jesus' kingdom has "NO END." It is "FOR EVER." Isa 9:6,7 says, "unto us a child is born (Jesus), unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace. OF THE INCREASE OF HIS (Jesus') GOVERNMENT AND PEACE THERE SHALL BE NO END, upon the throne of David, and upon HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even FOR EVER. The zeal of the LORD (YHWH) of hosts (Jesus, Isa. 44:6) will perform this."

> > At the end of the 1000 years Satan, the Demons and the People will face the final Judgment. Since they've already been in Hell, it doesn't make much sense to pull them out and then send them back.

They will be shown why they are banished to Hell. Their names are not in the Book of Life. However, it isn't up to us to decide whether it makes sense or not. God has already made that decision.

> > This would mean the people in Hell, if they believe in Jesus, can pay their debt and be forgiven by grace.

I think Satan would be happy for anyone to teach that. I believe Heb 9:27. It says, "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment".

> > I would say, salvation from Hell actually being in Hell is by the same means Believing in Christ.

And you would be wrong. We only have the chance to accept Christ as our own personal Saviour until we die. After "this the judgment."

> > Thanks again for your response. I really enjoy reading the info on your site. In Christ

Thanks. I'm glad you are "In Christ", for you would get no second chance in Hell. On Resurrection Day, Jesus took the saints in Paradise to Heaven with him, but he didn't take those in Tartarus to Heaven. They stayed put in their misery. Agape

My outgoing email to Five Doves site, Re: Ted Porter: "I too Believe in a "Pre-Wrath" "Day of the Lord" "Rapture"- But a Different Timing"

> > I too "believe" in a "Pre-Wrath" "Day of the Lord", but when I read the many verses in the Bible that have the phrase "day of the Lord", I cannot help but reach the conclusion that the "day of the Lord" is after the Millenium and satans "short season

You must be kidding. When I search eSword's KJV for the phrase "day of the Lord," I just don't see how you could actually reach that conclusion.

I think the Day of the Lord is the first day of Christ's Kingdom that begins with the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Tribulation. The terrible events are ushered in by the opening of the sixth and seventh seals. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Day of the Lord (Rev. 6:17; 7:1-17), but just before the wrath of God falls at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5).

Act 2:20 tells us that "The sun shall be turned into DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable DAY OF THE LORD come" That darkness starts when the 6th seal is broken (Rev. 6:12f). 2Pe 3:10 says, "THE DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the NIGHT (it starts at 6 PM); in the which the heavens (atmospheric) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Because of the importance of the first time something is mentioned, we should take a careful look at the first reference to THE DAY OF THE LORD. Isa. 2:12 first mentions "THE DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS."

The Lord of hosts is Christ (Isa. 44:6). Isa. 2:2 gives us the time slot of the DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS. It "shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS" (i.e., at the end of this Age). Verse 4 says, "he (Christ) shall JUDGE". The JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST is at the end of the shortened Tribulation, on THE DAY OF THE LORD.

2Cor 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Isa. 2:12-19 describes the Day of the Lord: "For the DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS (Christ) shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty...And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced WALL...the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day....And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they (men) shall GO INTO THE HOLES OF THE ROCKS, AND INTO THE CAVES OF THE EARTH, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty (loftiness of appearance, i.e., when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen), WHEN HE ARISETH TO SHAKE TERRIBLY THE EARTH".

Let's hunt for locking pieces in the Day of the Lord Puzzle. In the following verses, look for the matchmarks for WALL and GO INTO THE HOLES OF THE ROCKS. Those things happen on the DAY OF THE LORD.

One puzzle piece that locks into Isa. 2:12-19 is Eze. 38:18-20. It says, "it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME WHEN GOG SHALL COME AGAINST THE LAND OF ISRAEL, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face.For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea) AT MY PRESENCE (lit., face, i.e., the Sign of the Son and Man, not the Second Advent), and the mountains (ASTEROIDS of Rev. 8:8,10) SHALL BE THROWN DOWN, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground."

Another piece of the End of the Age Puzzle that locks into Isa. 2:12-19 is Rev. 6:12-17. It says, "I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven (i.e., meteorites, asteroids) FELL UNTO THE EARTH, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, HID THEMSELVES IN THE DENS AND IN THE ROCKS of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him (Christ) that SITTETH ON THE THRONE (i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky, Mt. 24:30, ON THE DAY OF HIS CORONATION, Dan. 7:14), and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB: FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME".

Another puzzle piece that fits into the DAY OF HIS WRATH connects that day with THE DAY OF THE LORD, the DARK DAY, and DESTRUCTION so violent that THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE.

Isa 13:6-12 says, "Howl ye; for THE DAY OF THE LORD is at hand; IT SHALL COME AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH AND FIERCE ANGER, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I WILL PUNISH THE WORLD for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in THE WRATH OF THE LORD of hosts, and in the day of his FIERCE ANGER."

The day of HIS WRATH and HIS FURY is also the day of THE INDIGNATION OF THE LORD and THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, when THE SWORD OF THE LORD hits Earth.

Isa 34:1-8 says, "Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For THE INDIGNATION OF THE LORD is upon all nations (i.e., the UN), and HIS FURY upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll (and the Sign of the Son of Man seen, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f): and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. THE SWORD OF THE LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion."

The DAY OF VENGEANCE is THE DAY OF THE LORD, and the day of his SACRIFICE IN THE NORTH COUNTRY BY THE RIVER EUPHRATES.

The Jer 46:10 For this is THE DAY OF THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS (Christ), A DAY OF VENGEANCE, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the SWORD shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a SACRIFICE IN THE NORTH COUNTRY (Iraq, in the northern hemisphere, Baghdad is 33 degrees North Latitude) BY THE RIVER EUPHRATES" (i.e., Babylon, Iraq).

The THE DAY OF THE LORD is the FEAST OF TRUMPETS and THE DAY OF DARKNESS.

Joel 2:1,2 says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A DAY OF DARKNESS and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of THICK DARKNESS, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE is on THE DAY OF DARKNESS, THE DAY OF THE LORD, and THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

JoeL 2:30,31 says, "I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible DAY OF THE LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be DELIVERED (malat, TO ESCAPE; i.e., IN THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE): for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be DELIVERANCE (peleytah, ESCAPE) as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

Zeph 2:3 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (delivered; i.e., raptured) in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER."

Elijah will come BEFORE the DAY OF THE LORD. Mal 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful DAY OF THE LORD". Elijah comes as the Tribulation starts. It looks like he will come with Christ at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

To me, the references to the DAY OF THE LORD show that it takes place on the DAY OF GOD'S WRATH at the end of this Age, not at the end of the Millennium. The judgment is THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, not the Great White Throne Judgment.

> > But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. II Peter 3:10

Some of the atmospheric heavens will be blasted away, and some of the soil will be melted and blasted away, when the two asteroid pieces impact Earth on the Day of the Lord. That is why the heavens and the face of the Earth need to be refreshed at the beginning of Christ's kingdom.

Just before the impacts at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5), the Lord will come as a thief in the night that begins the Day of the Lord and steal away the Tribulation saints. That is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Agape

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