Pro and Con 1243

Posted 9-22-05

CLUES TO THE POSSIBLE DATE OF THE RAPTURE

Incoming e-mail, Re: As the Days of Noah

I have been thinking more about your harvest chart for Israel, and "as the days of Noah." It makes even more sense that God would have waited until ALL the harvest was finished, before shutting the door of the ark. How would Noah have had oil for lamps for light, without the olives, the last harvests? How would he have had oil for bread, for annointing, or for sacrifices? He had to have the olive harvest, which finishes up in November.

Psalm 92:10 mentions FRESH oil. "But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil."

I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: Psalm 89:20

Psalm 141:5 Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.

Another thought: When the rapture takes place, the new temple will probably be built immediately. Will they not need fresh oil for temple sacrifices? Would November be perfect timing for the rapture? Perfect timing for the olive harvests?

And, when Noah opened the window of the Ark, and the dove brought back an olive branch. Showing that God was already growing "fresh oil" for those that were to come out of the Ark, after 1 year, 10 days.

And, on Friday, November 18th,(Chesvan 16), at 6:PM ish Israel time, the day changes to the Sabbath, Chesvan 17(Second month, 17th day, as the days of Noah). So, if midnight is right, Israel is about 8 hours ahead of Central Standard Time. That would be Friday afternoon, November 18th, at about 4:54 pm, our time. That is candle lighting time for the Sabbath. I believe Daylight Savings Time will have "fallen back" before November.

Do you have input on the olive harvest? I know you have said that "OIL" represents the holy spirit. Does this look like pieces are starting to fit?

Thank you for your diligence.

My reply

Thanks for your input.

> > Will they not need fresh oil for temple sacrifices?

I don't know if it has to be fresh or not. Olive oil is kept in vats for quite awhile to settle. The cloudy bottom layer is removed from time to time, and the oil becomes clear.

I searched on Google and found that in Crete, "The olive harvest period starts in November and lasts till March."
http://www.explorecrete.com/nature/olive.html

In ancient Israel, most of the olive harvest came after the Feast of Tabernacles. That could be a good clue that would fit a fall date.

At Hanukkah, the Feast of Lights, they could only find enough undefiled olive oil for one day. The miracle was that the undefiled olive oil lasted eight days. That gave them enough time to prepare some more oil. Eight means new order. That could fit the Rapture on Hanukkah. It is kept today as an eight-day festival.

I don't know how they prepared more oil in just eight days, but it probably was a process of filtering first-press extra-virgin olive oil through wool until it ran clear.

> > when Noah opened the window of the Ark, and the dove brought back an olive branch. Showing that God was already growing "fresh oil" for those that were to come out of the Ark

Good thinking. I missed that one. It shows that we can get farther when we put our heads together. I thought of peace, but not oil.

The wise virgins have enough oil. It's strange that they call the first-press oil extra virgin or virgin olive oil.

You have given me more food for thought. I appreciate it. Agape

His reply, Re: As the Days of Noah

Yes! I did think about how the oil tied in with the foolish virgins, but I did not think of the extra virgin and virgin olive oils. Could that indicate the first, fall olive harvests? That would work. A friend told me that olive oil is only good for 1 year! Have you ever smelled old olive oil? It is awful! We only use olive oil to cook with, now, and it has a sweet aroma. Potatoes fried in it, actually have a slight sweet taste. But, I did purchase some old oil, once. You could not stand it! It looks like God knew exactly when Noah would need fresh olive oil.

Remember, ...precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; hear a little, there a little......this the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isaiah 28: 10-12

Studying the scriptures word by word, phrase by phrase, reference by reference, searching for Holy Spirit revelation. Praise God! He reveals these things to the wise and prudent searchers!

I pulled up 56 verses on olive and olive trees. And 189 verses on oil. Here is just a short list of scripture phrases on oil, and then some intriguing verses.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Matthew 25

Just like in the days of Noah, the door was shut. He has told us to live for him now, and to watch! If we wait until the rapture happens to take God's Word seriously, the door will be shut and we may have to go through the tribulation, because we did not have our hearts set on God.

14For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth. 1 Kings 17

....oil of gladness Psalm 45:7
....oil of joy Isaiah 61:3
....oil for the wise Proverbs 21:20

Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. Ezekiel 16:9

Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 32:14
Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer: Ezekiel 45:14

....but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken. Jeremiah 40;10

Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:7-8

Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil,...Psalm141:5

And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. Joel 2:24

Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense, Exodus 25:6

And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. Exodus 27:20

And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them. Exodus 29:2

Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. Leviticus 24:2

The two doors also were of olive tree: and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon them cherubims, and upon the palm trees. So also made he for the door of the temple posts of olive tree, a fourth part of the wall. 1 Kings 6:32-33

Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying the LORD will delliver us. 2 Kings 18:32

The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Judges 9:8-9

Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you. Haggai 2:19

So many of these scriptures make it sound like the end of the harvest.

Thank you for considering all these. We are getting there, line by line, precept by precept.

My reply

Thanks for reminding me of olive oil. I haven't smelled bad olive oil. I'll have to be sure I don't keep it on the shelf too long. I read that it is best the first 6 months.

> > It looks like God knew exactly when Noah would need fresh olive oil.

Of course, the Lord could arrange it, but do you think trees that had been under water for a year would normally produce the usual fall crop of olives? I could believe that they did. For one thing, the trees can be grown on hillsides that would stick up out of the water as it receded. The trees are long lived. Some on the Mt. of Olives are thought to be 2000 years old.

Having lived in La Mirada, CA, a former olive orchard, for 27 years, I have seen how hardy these trees are. They put one in each front yard in our whole tract of new houses. These trees put up new sprouts like a tall thicket around the lower trunk fast.

Right after coming out of the Ark, Noah, his family, and the animals needed all kinds of vegetation to eat. The animals couldn't have eaten other animals at first, or some would have gone extinct right away. Either plants survived the flood, or God again caused "every herb of the field before it" to grow as in Gen. 2:5. So, I'll assume that Noah could have pressed oil out of the olives right away. As you said, he would have needed fresh olive oil after a year in the Ark.

> > I did think about how the oil tied in with the foolish virgins, but I did not think of the extra virgin and virgin olive oils. Could that indicate the first, fall olive harvests?

I think it could be any time during the olive harvest. Those grades of oil are from the first pressing. That ties in with the first Rapture. In Israel, olives are harvested in September, October and November. Some are harvested before the Feast of Tabernacles, but most are harvested after Tabernacles. http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/festivals/harvest.htm
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Crops Grown in Israel
http://weather.nmsu.edu/hydrology/wastewater/BMP-middle-east/BMP-Israel.htm

(Olive) Harvesting date: From the end of October
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http://www.kci-com.com/lp/rr/oliveoil/oliveads.asp?promocode1=W20542&promocode2=W20539

FROM THE LATE SUMMER TO THE EARLY WINTER, someone, somewhere—in Italy, in Spain, in France, in Greece, in Tunisia, in Israel, in California, etc.—is pressing fresh olive oil.
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At the Feast of Lights (Hanukkah), the oil that should have lasted only one day lasted eight days. By that time, they were able to make more pure olive oil. That could indicate that some olives were still being harvested around the time of Hanukkah.

This makes the Chesvan 17 (November 19, 2005) date that Noah entered the Ark seem possible for the Rapture. However, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, and the Ark floated free of the ground. Nov. 19 plus 40 days will be Dec. 29, the 4th day of Hanukkah. I wonder if the Ark could have floated free on the first day of Hanukkah (Dec. 26, 2005).

Gen. 7:17 says, "the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up (NASA, LIFTED UP) the ark, and it was lift up (rum, lift up on high) ABOVE THE EARTH."

However, as you know, Haggai 2:18,19 mentions Kislev 24. That will be December 25, 2005, Christmas, and the Eve of Hanukkah. From 6 PM to midnight, Christmas and Hanukkah will coincide.

I think Jesus was actually born Tishri 1, but his birth is celebrated at Christmas. It actually could have been his conception instead of his birth. The date that he came into this world at conception could be the date he will come again for his wise-virgin bride.

Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24), even from the day that the FOUNDATION (Christ) OF THE LORD'S TEMPLE was laid (i.e., at his conception), consider it (sum lebab, take it to heart). Is the seed (zera, seed, child, i.e., Christ) yet in the barn? (Heaven, Mt. 13:30) , as yet the vine (Christ, John 15:5), and the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7), and the pomegranate, and THE OLIVE TREE (Israel, and the Gentiles can be grafted in, Rom. 11:17), hath not brought forth (NASA, LIFTED UP): FROM THIS DAY (Kislev 24) WILL I BLESS YOU."

I have wondered about that date for a long time. It sure sounds like it could be the date of the first Rapture. The theme of Haggai is the unfinished temple. That fits the church. It will be completed at the second Rapture. He used "consider" several times. It sounds very important for us to do what he says in order to be ready. Then it gives a specific date that we are begged ("I PRAY YOU") to consider.

Haggai 1:5 says, "thus saith the LORD of hosts; CONSIDER your ways."

Haggai 1:7 repeats, "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; CONSIDER your ways."

Haggai 2:15 says, "And now, I PRAY YOU, CONSIDER from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD".

We are God's husbandry as well as the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor. 3:9 says, "ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

John 10:22 says, “it was at Jerusalem THE FEAST OF THE DEDICATION, and it was WINTER (starts Dec. 21). And JESUS WALKED IN THE TEMPLE in Solomon's porch." The FEAST OF THE DEDICATION was HANUKKAH, also known as the FEAST OF LIGHTS.

Note: Solomon means peaceable.

Psa 128:3 says, "Thy WIFE shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: THY CHILDREN LIKE OLIVE PLANTS round about thy table.

Jer 11:16 say, "The LORD called thy (Israel's) name, A GREEN OLIVE TREE, fair, and of goodly fruit."

In Psa 52:8, David said, "I am like A GREEN OLIVE TREE in the house of God".

Jesus went to the Mt. of Olives many times. He will return at the Second Advent and put his feet on the Mt. of Olives (Zech. 14:4). That alone makes olives sound significant. He went to the Garden of Gethsemane, and Gethsemane means oil vat.

1Ki 6:31 says, "for the entering of the oracle he made DOORS (symbol of two Raptures) of OLIVE TREE: the lintel and side posts were a fifth part of the wall. The TWO DOORS ALSO WERE OF OLIVE TREE".

Rom 11:17-25 says, "if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Gentiles), being A WILD OLIVE TREE, wert graffed in among them (Israel), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off (see Luke 12:46). And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the OLIVE TREE which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into A GOOD OLIVE TREE: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own OLIVE TREE? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of THIS MYSTERY, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Lev 24:2 is also interesting. It says, "Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee PURE OIL OLIVE BEATEN FOR THE LIGHT, TO CAUSE THE LAMPS TO BURN CONTINUALLY."

Since the oil was beaten, it could suggest our being sifted like wheat for 8 days (as the 8 days in which the new oil was prepared at Hanukkah), or 8 years, from 5758 (probably the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of Eden) to 5766, which will start Tishri 1, 5766 (October 4, 2005).

5766 + 7 = 5773, which is not a leap year. Since the Great Tribulation is to be shortened, drop back to 5771, the preceding leap year. Tishri 1, 5771 (Sept. 9, 2010) could be the the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath. It would be the Day of the Lord we read about so often. According to Eze. 39:12,13, seven months later would be the Second Advent, Nisan 1, 5771 (April 5, 2011).

> > Thank you for considering all these. We are getting there, line by line, precept by precept.

I hope so. Prov 4:18 says, "the path of the just is as (symbolic language) the shining LIGHT, that shineth more and more unto THE PERFECT DAY." Would Kislev 24 be the perfect day? Maybe Haggai 2:18 has been pointing us to the perfect day all along. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: 9-11 pro and con

You are discussing the scripture 1 Peter 3:18-20. Why would Jesus go and preach to them if mankind already had the gospel in those days? It sounds as though they had a chance to be saved by believing after they had died! What exactly is happening in this passage? What was Jesus "preaching" to them? Thanks a lot.

My reply

Let's look at some scriptures and see if we can figure out what they really mean.

I Peter 3:18-20 says, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT (Spirit of Christ): BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON; WHICH SOMETIME WERE DISOBEDIENT, WHEN ONCE THE LONGSUFFERING OF GOD WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. Rom 8:9 says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that THE SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his." 1Pe 1:9-11 says, "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation THE PROPHETS have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM (the prophets) DID SIGNIFY, when it (the Spirit of Christ) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

I think the spirits that were disobedient in the days of Noah refers to fallen angels. Gen. 6:1-5 says, "it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That THE SONS OF GOD (fallen angels, spirits) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and THEY TOOK THEM WIVES of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were GIANTS (inheriting the greater size and strength of the fallen angels) in the earth in those days; and also after that (Goliath was one), when THE SONS OF GOD (fallen angels) came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children (giants) to them (the fallen angels), the same (giants) became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only EVIL CONTINUALLY."

Job 1:6,7 says, "Now there was a day when THE SONS OF GOD (including the fallen angels) came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN (one of the individually created sons of God) CAME ALSO among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Job 2:1 says, "Again there was a day when THE SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them to present himself before the LORD."

2Pe 2:4,5 says, "GOD SPARED NOT THE ANGELS THAT SINNED, BUT CAST THEM DOWN TO HELL (tartaroo¯, the deepest abyss of Hades), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly".

Eph 4:7-10 says, "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ (i.e., the Spirit of Christ). Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN (not fallen angels). (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST INTO THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH? He that descended is the same also that ASCENDED up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"
Luke 23:43 says, "Jesus said unto him (the thief on the cross), Verily I say unto thee, To day (Thursday) shalt thou be with me in PARADISE." They descended down in the Earth to Paradise, also called Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

Mat 12:40 says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH." The three days and three nights were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day), and Sunday (night).

After three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth, Jesus was resurrected. That Sunday, he took Paradise and its contents to "the third heaven" (II Cor. 12:2). That's why he could not be touched in the morning, but could be touched later on that day.

John 20:17 says, "Jesus saith unto her (Mary Magdalene), TOUCH ME NOT; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Later on, Paul was caught up to Paradise in Heaven. 2Co 12:2-4 says, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN (Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was CAUGHT UP INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Isaiah 42:6 says, "I, The Lord have called Thee (i.e., Christ) in Righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a COVENANT of the people, and a LIGHT of the gentiles; To OPEN the blind eyes, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS FROM THE PRISON, AND THEM THAT SIT IN DARKNESS OUT OF THE PRISON HOUSE."

These Old Testament saints had to wait in Paradise in the Earth until Christ had paid the penalty for sin. Then he took them to Heaven.

We can now understand what Eph 4:8,9 says: "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

The "bottomless pit" (core of the Earth) of Rev. 9 may be same as Tartarus, the deepest Hell. Agape

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