Pro and Con 1244

Posted 9-25-05

Incoming e-mail, Re: (Rapture date) As the Days of Noah

You gave significant dates in Jewish history, a few years back. Is there any way to look at all the significant events, if any, that have occurred on the 2nd month, 17th day( would be 8th month, 17th day, since the calendar change at the Exodus)since Christ's Resurrection? How about since the flood? Where could we search for this? This information might possibly give us some types, kinds, and similtudes for understanding....or not.

I am looking at Haggai 2:18-19 in a different light than on the new posting, "Possible Days..."

Consider now from this day and upward(means backward), from(before) the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD"S temple was laid,(before this time) consider it.(consider before this date,--between this date and...when the.....seed is in the barn, the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree has brought forth(the end of harvest time) Is the seed yet in the barn? Yea(has),as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree(last harvest), hath not brought forth: From this day(the day these harvest are finished, the day that they have brought forth) will I bless you. This would be between Kislev 28, and at the end of olive harvests.(as the days of Noah-he went into the ark after all the summer fruits and oil olives are harvested Jeremiah 40:10 mentions it this way, and 2 Kings 18:32 mentions "taking you away to a land like your own land,a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olives and honey, that ye may live, and not die). Doesn't winter start before Kislev(December)? Thank you for searching

My reply

This year Kislev starts December 2, Winter starts Dec. 21, and Hanukkah starts December 26 and lasts 8 days.

Below are listed some events in Jewish history. There were 12,000 deaths on Cheshvan 17. That ties in with deaths by Noah's Flood. However, that date isn't as interesting as Kislev 25.

Hanukkah just might be the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. THE TABERNACLE (MISHKAN) WAS COMPLETED ON KISLEV 25. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Will the wise-virgin group be completed on Kislev 25 (Dec. 26, 2005), the first day of Hannukah? I hope so.

In Noah's day, it started to rain on Cheshvan 17 and stopped on Kislev 27. By that date, the water had raised up enough to float the Ark free of the ground. Gen 7:17 says, "the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and IT WAS LIFT UP ABOVE THE EARTH." The date that the Ark was lifted up above the Earth could be the date of the Rapture. Kislev 25, Hanukkah, seems possible. That was the day the Tabernacle was completed.
This Day in Jewish History

[17 MarCheshvan]
Beginning of the Mabul (according to R. Eliezer).
Chmielnicki's forces massacred 12,000 Jews, 1648.

24 Kislev
Foundation of second Beit HaMikdash (the holy Temple) was completed.
Chaggai prophesied the downfall of Persia and the salvation of the Jews.
British captured J'lem from the Turks, 1917.

25 Kislev
First day of Chanuka.
Cain killed Abel.
Yahrzeits of the Vilna Gaon's father and son, 1758, 1808.
Jews ordered expelled from Tennessee by Gen. Ulysses S. Grant.
ichron Yaakov founded, 1882.
The order of the expulsion of the Jews of Spain (associated with Tish'a b'Av 1492) was officially voided on the first day of Chanuka 1968.

[26 Kislev]
First Crusade proclaimed, 1095.

[27 Kislev]

Rabi Chanina said: ON THE TWENTY-FIFTH OF KISLEV THE WORK OF THE MISHKAN WAS CONCLUDED but it was kept folded till the first of Nisan, as it is written: 'On the day of the first month, on the first of the month, you shall erect the Mishkan of the tent of meeting....(Yalkut Melachim 184)....
Since we will go to New Jerusalem at the Rapture, the Kislev 24 date in 1917 is very interesting. That is when Allenby took Jerusalem on December 9 without a shot being fired. He had a plane drop leaflets with his message. He signed it Lord Allenby, and the Turks thought it was from the Lord and fled. Allenby walked into the city on THE NEXT DAY.

Acts 15:14-16 may be refering to the Rapture. It says, "Simeon hath declared how God AT THE FIRST (i.e., at the FIRST TRUMP, FIRST RAPTURE) DID VISIT THE GENTILES, TO TAKE OUT OF THEM A PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, I will return (i.e., on Nisan 1, Second Advent), and will build again the TABERNACLE of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up".

Hanukkah may be the day of Jesus' conception. He is the LIGHT of the world, and Hanukkah is the FEAST OF LIGHTS and the dedication of the cleansed temple. All the lights of the wise virgins would be appropriate on the Feast of lights.

Jesus walked in the temple on Hanukkah, the Feast of Lights, the Feast of the Dedication. John 10:22,23 says, "it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch." Winter begins on December 21. The first day of Hanukkah is December 26, 2005--winter. The feast lasts 8 days, and 8 means new order. The wise virgins will experience a new order in Heaven after the Rapture.

I found out that the last time that olives can be offered as firstfruits is on Hanukkah, and it takes 8 days to prepare the oil for the lampstand.
Lighting Up Chanukah
By Hillel ben David (Greg Killian)

Chanukah was also the latest date for bringing bikkurim, the firstfruits[2]." (Mishna Bikkurim 1:6)

Chanukah is celebrated for eight days because that was how long it took to rebuild and recreate the altar Additionally, this is how long it took to prepare the oil.

Now, what is interesting is that the dedication of the altar in the Mishkan (The Tabernacle) and the dedication of the altar in the Beit HaMikdash (The Temple) both took seven days! This suggests that there is something very unique about the Chanukah altar that alludes to a time beyond all time, a time that transcends this world.

There seems to be a “missing festival” at the time of Chanukah. After all, the other three tekufot (equinoxes and solstice) have festivals – why not the winter solstice? And the other demarcators of the agricultural year have holidays: beginning and end of the crop harvest (Pesach and Succoth) and beginning of fruit harvest (Shavuot); why not THE END OF THE FRUIT HARVEST, CHANUKAH, WHEN THE LAST OLIVES ARE GATHERED AND CAN BE BROUGHT AS BIKKURIM?
Bikkurim are firstfruits. James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS OF HIS CREATURES." Maybe we will celebrate this festival in Heaven instead of on Earth.

The earthly Tabernacle was a pattern of the heavenly Tabernacle, Heb. 9:23,24.

Psa. 15:1,2 says, "who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart." That sounds like a wise virgin.


Rev. 13:6 says of the Beast, "he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his TABERNACLE, and them that dwell in heaven." This is right after the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is the wise virgins that dwell in Heaven at that time.

It is possible that the conception of Jesus was on Kislev 25, the Feast of Lights, the Feast of Dedication, Hanukkah. In John 9:5, Jesus said, "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

In Luke 1:5-13, we find that Zechariah, father of John the Baptist, belonged to the priestly division of Abijah. In 1 Chronicles 24,3, we find that Zechariah would be serving in the temple in the 8th week. The count of weeks started Nisan 1.

All the priests had to serve on feast weeks, so Passover would shift Zechariah's serving to the 9th week also. He would then have to serve during the 10th week because of Pentecost. He would have gone home in the 11th week. John the Baptist would have been conceived between Sivan 12 and 30.

Luke 1,23-24 says, "When his (Zechariah's) time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion."

Luke 1,26-31 says, "In the SIXTH MONTH, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus."

The sixth month after Sivan is Kislev. The 6 months are Tamuz, Av, Elul, Tishri, Cheshvan and Kislev.

Luke 1,32-36 says, "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month (Kislev) with her, who was called barren."

Therefore, I think Jesus was conceived between Kislev 12 and 30. Hanukkah fits. It starts on Kislev 25 and lasts 8 days.

On Dec. 26, 2005 (Kislev 25, Hanakkah) Saturn (in Cancer, the holding place, i.e., Heaven), will be up all night. It will be a morning star from midnight on. That could indicate that the Rapture would take place at midnight, as in the parable of the ten virgins. Mt. 25:6 says, "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."

In Rev. 22:16, Jesus said, "I AM the root (YHWH) and the offspring of David (Jesus), and THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR."

The storm (Rita) spun off tornadoes as it churned northwest, causing transformers to explode. In Jasper County, north of Beaumont, a house with seven people inside floated in floodwaters after it came off its foundation, said sheriff's communications supervisor Alice Duckworth.
That reminds me of Noah's Ark floating free.

> > Consider now from this day and upward (means backward)

I think the word maal really means upward. It may indicate the Rapture. Strongs says, "From H5927; properly the upper part, used only adverbially with prefix upward, above, overhead, from the top, etc.: - above, exceeding (-ly), forward, on (X very) high, over, up (-on, -ward), very."

Haggai 2:20,23 says, "And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, In that day (Kislev 24), saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have CHOSEN thee, saith the LORD of hosts."

At the Rapture, we must be chosen. Rev. 17:14 says, "he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful."

At 6 PM, Sunday, Kislev 24 will become Kislev 25, Hanukkah. On our Gregorian Calendar, the date will remain Dec. 25, Christmas, until midnight. The Jews give gifts on Hanukkah. We give gifts on Christmas. If the Rapture takes place then, it will be a great gift from Christ to us. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rapture

I don't mean to be a pest, but did you read the document I sent? Could you comment on my interpretations in it?...

The people in Hell, go there not like the demons, with full knowlege of God, they go there because of ignorance. I believe they had the chance to avoid, but they didn't take it. There is no work that can save you or I, it is through faith alone, the people from hell would not have to do a work from Hell. They would simply need to learn the truth of Jesus. The rich man seemed to be learning compassion....

I liked your description of Paradise, but for all we know, he could have called it pardise in one verse, third heaven in another, that doesn't imply that it had to move. He could have done that just to link the terms together. Jesus went there for 3 days and came back. That was when he was in the earth. Once he ascended into the Heavens, he could go where he pleased. Nothing had to move. Wycliff's Dictonary of Theology explains it this way as well. I'm not just making it up. It just seems like the more logical answer. It wouldn't seem likely to have the rich man story to explain how it used to be, to new christians, it seems more likely Jesus explained how it was and is....I say the people in Hell, released when the sea gives up her dead will have the chance right there to either choose Satan willingly (now that they are enlightened) or choose Jesus. Your help is always appreciated. In Christ

My reply

Yes, I read what you sent me, even though it was a long attachment, which I seldom open because of the danger of getting a virus. I don't think that a man already in Hell can be saved. Heb 9:27 says, "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

If we are to understand the Bible correctly, we must each "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2Ti 2:15). We must let it say what it says, not trying to rationalize it away, or trying to make it fit preconceived theories.

In 2Co 12:2-6, Paul said, "I knew a man [Paul himself] in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP [harpazo, taken up by force, i.e., raptured) TO THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he [Paul] was CAUGHT UP [harpazo, taken up by force, i.e., raptured) INTO PARADISE [in 'the third heaven], and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear [abstain], lest any man should think of ME [Paul] above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."

Paul not naming himself here is similar to John not naming himself. John 13:23 says, "Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved." That disciple was John.

John 19:26,27 is similar. It says, "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved (i.e., John), he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home." John 20:2 is the same way. It says, "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved (John), and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."

In John 21:7, it is the same way. It says, "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved (John) saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea."

In John 21:20, "Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved (John) following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?"

Both the tree of life and Paradise are now in "the third heaven". The same type of thing happened to both Paradise and the tree of life. First, they were on Earth; later, they are in Heaven.

Gen 2:9 says, "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the TREE OF LIFE also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." The tree of life symbolized the Son of God. He was to have an earthly body (John 1:14). The tree of knowledge of good and evil symbolized Satan. He will go into the earthly body of the False Prophet (Rev. 13:11; 17:8), the son of perdition.

The Tree of Life ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9). We can now read of him in Heaven. Rev 2:7 says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, WHICH IS IN THE MIDST OF THE PARADISE of God."

Both Paradise and the Tree of Life are now in heaven. Rev 22:14 says, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the TREE OF LIFE, and may enter in through the gates into the city" (the heavenly New Jerusalem). Agape

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God

By Marilyn Agee

Rom 8:9 says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that THE SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his.

Therefore, it was the Spirit of Christ that moved upon the face of the waters in Gen 1:2. It says, "the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT OF GOD moved upon the face of the waters."

1Pe 1:9-11 says, "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM (the prophets) DID SIGNIFY, when it (the Spirit of Christ) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (TARTARUS), and delivered them into chains of DARKNESS, to be reserved unto judgment; 2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of SODOM AND GOMORRHA into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, MAKING THEM AN ENSAMPLE unto those that after should live ungodly; 2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

1 Peter 3:18-19 KJV: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto THE SPIRITS IN PRISON;"

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to Preach Deliverance to the CAPTIVES, and Recovering of sight to the blind, to Set at Liberty them that are bruised."

Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me; because the Lord hath anointed Me to Preach Good Tidings unto the meek; He hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the Prison to them that are bound."

Isaiah 42:6 "I, The Lord have called Thee in Righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a COVENANT of the people, and a LIGHT of the gentiles; To OPEN the blind eyes, to bring out the Prisoners from the Prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the PRISON HOUSE."

1 Peter 4:5,6 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Did Christ Descend Into Hell?
by Lambert Dolphin:

"He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh, but he was raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built...For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that, although they have already been judged in the flesh like men, they might have life in the Spirit like God." (1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6)...

From Through the Bible with J. Vernon McGee (1983) CHRIST'S SUFFERING PREACHED BY THE SPIRIT IN NOAH'S DAY

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison [1 Pet. 3:19].

This has been a most misunderstood passage of Scripture. The key word to this entire passage is in verse 20; it is the little word when

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water [I Pet. 3:20].

When did Christ preach to the spirits in prison? "When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah." In Christ's day, the spirits of those men to whom Noah had preached were in prison, for they had rejected the message of Noah. They had gone into sheol. They were waiting for judgment; they were lost. But Christ did not go down and preach to them after He died on the cross. He preached through Noah "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah." For 120 years Noah had preached the Word of God. He saved his family but no one else. It was the Spirit of Christ who spoke through Noah in Noah's day. In Christ's day, those who rejected Noah's message were in prison. The thought is that Christ's death meant nothing to them just as it means nothing to a great many people today who, as a result, will also come into judgment.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ [1 Pet. 3:21].

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us." To what baptism does this refer? It is not water baptism but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. Now I believe in water baptism, and I believe immersion is the proper mode. However, the important thing here is to see that it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers.

"Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh"--it is not just by water, for that will not put away the filth of the flesh. "But the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"--that is, a faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

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