Pro and Con 1246

Posted 10-8-05

Rare White Giraffe Spotted in Africa


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0913_050913_whitegiraffe.html

Hanukkah

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Chanukah

...It has been noted that Jewish festivals are connected to the harvesting of the Biblical seven fruits which Israel was famed for. Pesach is a celebration of the barley harvest, Shavuoth of the wheat, Sukkoth of the figs, dates, pomegranates and grapes, and Chanukah of the olives. The olive harvest is in November and olive oil would be ready in time for Chanukah in December....

Re: The 10-Nation Reorganization of the World

THE CUTTING EDGE, By David Bay
http://www.cuttingedge.org/ce1006.html

...New World Order planners have already devised their 10-Nation Reorganization. In 1974, a book entitled "Mankind At The Turning Point" devised a reorganization of the world's 170+ sovereign nations into 10 Super-Nations. We have listed these 10 Super Nations for you:

North America
Western Europe
Japan
Australia, South Africa, and the rest of the market economy of the developed world.
Eastern Europe, including Russia
Latin America
North Africa and the Middle East
Tropical Africa
South and Southeast Asia
China...

First Temple-era seal discovered

By ETGAR LEFKOVITS, Updated Sep. 28, 2005
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1127787594479

A First-Temple period seal has been discovered amidst piles of rubble from Jerusalem's Temple Mount, an Israeli archaeologist said Tuesday, in what could prove to be an historic find.

Incoming e-mail, Re: Two Raptures and Rapture Dates

Over the past year I've been reading your posts on the two raptures and possible rapture dates. I actually found your site via Daniel Rydstedt's site. I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts, but what I have read is very interesting. I'm an engineer so I tend to like good investigation and logical reasoning.

The idea of two raptures is new to me, but I see the scriptural evidence for it and it makes sense. Prior to reading on Daniel's and your site, I had always held strongly to the pre-trib. rapture, with the primary evidence being the feasts of Israel (they present God's overall plan of redemption), and the fact that practically every born-again Jew I've ever heard of or met accepts the pre-trib. rapture. When they come to Christ, the rituals and traditions they've been taught come to life for them.

On the other hand, I have friends that sincerely believe that all believers will experience the first half of the tribulation, and it has been pointless to debate the issue with them. I have begun to see the two rapture viewpoint, not as a compromise, but as a combination of the other two viewpoints that allows more scripture to fit together.

What I haven't been able to resolve is exactly what is the criteria for the two groups. Obviously being born-again is at least part of the criteria. However, Daniel R. and you both have pointed out that both the wise and foolish virgins were born-again. I had always seen in the parable that both groups had oil in their lamps ("Thy word is a lamp unto my feet..." Ps 119:105), in other words both had God's word which is itself anointed. But additionally, the wise virgins also had oil in "their vessels" (themselves) as well as their lamps. The Holy Spirit within us is the bottom line mark of a true believer (Eph 4:30). Therefore, I had always viewed the parable as teaching that the wise virgins are true believers with the mark of the indwelling Holy Spirit, but the foolish virgins are not really true believers, but only think they are believers (because of church membership, or tradition, etc.). A "believer" in name only can still hear, learn, and even use God's anointed word without truly accepting it for themselves and being born-again. Also I believe a person who was once a true believer can fall away (through backsliding) to the point of loosing the indwelling Holy Spirit and probably will not even know it has happened. That's the deceitfulness of sin.

Daniel R. speaks of true intimacy with God as being necessary to qualify for the Bride. What he says really sounds like we must truly abide in Christ as we are actually told to do in John 15. Is this then the essential criteria - being born again at the beginning and continuing to abide in Christ? I can see that a vast majority of the church today is failing to emphasize and teach the importance of and how to truly abide in Christ. But then I also struggle with the question of "how intimate is intimate enough?" We can _always_ pray more, read the Word more, worship more, etc.

Another question is about the "dead in Christ" - if both the wise and foolish virgins are born-again (which I have trouble accepting), then the "dead in Christ" will contain some of both groups. If then, the "dead in Christ" are (both foolish and wise) raised at the Bride rapture, then for a "foolish" virgin to die prior to the Bride rapture is a means of bypass into the Bride rapture group. Perhaps this is covered by the wedding parable (Matt 22:11-14) ? If the foolish dead virgins are cast out of the wedding, what really happens to them? They don't come back to earth for another chance - sounds like to me they were not really saved after all !

On the rapture dates, the Bride rapture occurring around Pentecost and the pre-wrath rapture occurring around Rosh-ha-Shannah (or somewhat latter) makes a lot of sense. The spring rapture fulfills the picture in Song of Solomon, and the fall rapture fullfills the Feast of Trumpets / Noah and the ark (removed just in time before the flood of wrath!) pictures. Pentecost 2005 has past. Why are you now looking to Fall 2005 as possible for the Bride rapture rather than next Pentecost?

On trying to figure out dates in general - it interests me to do it from a logical, calculating (engineer) viewpoint, but it's difficult to teach or interest others in it. There is too much teaching in the church (in general) that we should not try to do it, that it can't be done anyway. It's difficult to even discuss this with my wife, because she points out that if we know exactly when it will occur, what's the point in continuing to live our lives in any kind of normal fashion.

I do think we should be teaching believers to watch, pray, abide, and to be ready in general. Part of that is seeking to know and apply all that can be gleened from the scripture and from the Spirit himself. Whether that can be the exact date, I don't know, but I believe it certainly can be the season, maybe even the year. I teach adult Sunday School and in the past have led discipleship and home Bible study groups. I've been impressed (by the Spirit) to emphasize the importance of abiding in Christ. I may introduce the two rapture concept when I gain a sufficient grasp on it myself.

Thanks for the web site. Sorry for the long note. Love in Christ,

My reply

I'm glad you find my web site interesting.

> > I have friends that sincerely believe that all believers will experience the first half of the tribulation

The main thing that could make them think the first Rapture would take place Mid-Trib is Rev. 11:12. It says that the two prophets (Moses and Elijah) "heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." However, it does not mention any others being caught up with them at that time.

I think Moses and Elijah will come down with Christ when he comes for his Bride. They will prophesy 1260 days and then be killed, resurrected and called back to Heaven when Christ says, "Come up hither," as he said at the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 4:1).

In the same hour that these two witnesses are called up to Heaven, an earthquake hits Jerusalem. Rev. 11:13 says, "the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

There is no mention of an earthquake at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. This indicates that these two ascensions take place at different times.

Rev. 11 starts out with the Pre-Trib Rapture, includes the Mid-Trib Rapture of the two witnesses, and ends with the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath, when all saints will be in Heaven receiving their rewards.

Verses 18 and 19 say, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets (including John), and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (i.e., all saints); and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The first verse of Rev. 11 says, "And there was given me (John, one of the 24 elders) a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE (egeiro, awake from sleep or death, RISE UP, LIFT UP), and measure (metreo, ascertain the size, i.e., number) the temple of God (in Heaven), and the altar, and them (those out of every nation caught up with John in the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 5:9) that worship therein."

This is talking about the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Bride saints (the wise virgins, including John and the other 23 elders) that can be numbered Rev. 4:4). The Pre-Wrath Rapture includes the 144,000 that are added to the Bride of Christ at the second Rapture (because they are virgins without fault before the throne of God, Rev. 14:4,5).

The rest of the saints can't be numbered, even though they "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). The foolish virgins are among these.

Rev. 7:9,10 says of them, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation (soteria, rescue) to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

The Rapture indicated in Rev. 11:1 is separate from the Rapture of the two witnesses Mid-Trib (v. 12). Both of these Raptures are separate from the Rapture of the Tribulation saints on the Day of God's Wrath when all saints, "small and great" are in Heaven (vs. 18,19).

> > What I haven't been able to resolve is exactly what is the criteria for the two groups. Obviously being born-again is at least part of the criteria. However, Daniel R. and you both have pointed out that both the wise and foolish virgins were born-again.

I think of the wise virgins as the spiritual believers, and the foolish virgins as carnal believers. The foolish virgins knew the Lord. Mt. 25:11 says, "Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, LORD, LORD, open to us."

1Cor 12:3 says, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the SPIRIT OF GOD calleth Jesus accursed: and that NO MAN can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Though foolish, the group left behind are virgins. When they accepted Christ as their own personal Saviour, all their "old sins" (II Peter 1:9) were wiped off the slate. They, as pure virgins, got a chance to start over. In 1Cor 3:1-3, Paul said, "I, brethren (believers), could not speak unto you as unto SPIRITUAL, but as unto CARNAL, even AS UNTO BABES IN CHRIST. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For YE ARE YET CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, ARE YE NOT CARNAL, AND WALK AS MEN (i.e., unbelievers)?"

Luke 12:46 tells us what happens to unwise servants. It says, "The lord of that servant will come (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) in a DAY when he looketh not for him, and at an HOUR when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him HIS PORTION (the shortened Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS." Mt 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The DAY and HOUR are also mentioned in Mt. 25:12-14. Addressing the foolish virgins that got left behind, Jesus said, "Verily (Amen, so be it) I say unto you, I know you not. WATCH therefore, for ye know neither the DAY nor the HOUR wherein the Son of man cometh. For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called HIS OWN SERVANTS (i.e., Christians), and delivered unto them his goods" (talents).

The difference between the wise and foolish virgins is the amount of oil (Holy Spirit) they have in their vessels (bodies). The remedy is in I John 1:9. It says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Then we can be filled with oil, the Holy Spirit.

> > I believe a person who was once a true believer can fall away (through backsliding) to the point of loosing the indwelling Holy Spirit

I think there is a limit beyond which he could not lose the indwelling Holy Spirit. I don't think he could lose the sealing that guarantees him salvation. He is "SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION."

Eph 4:30 says, "grieve not the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, whereby ye are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION."

Eph 1:12-14 says, "...Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise, WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Rom 8:23 says, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the REDEMPTION of our body."

Heb 9:12 says, "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us."

> > Daniel R. speaks of true intimacy with God as being necessary to qualify for the Bride. What he says really sounds like we must truly abide in Christ as we are actually told to do in John 15. Is this then the essential criteria - being born again at the beginning and continuing to abide in Christ?

Yes. It is in the form of a direct command. In John 15:4, Jesus said, "ABIDE IN ME, AND I IN YOU. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

> > But then I also struggle with the question of "how intimate is intimate enough?" We can _always_ pray more, read the Word more, worship more

If we are sin free, having confessed our sins committed after accepting Christ as in I John 1:9, we are filled with the Holy Spirit. That is how intimate we should be. That's when we are in fellowship with God. 1Th 5:19 says, "Quench not the Spirit." Eph 5:18 says, "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit." We should be filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ, which is the Holy Spirit of God.

Rom 8:9 says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his."

We must allow Jesus to wash our feet by confessing our sins since we accepted Christ. When talking to Peter, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit" (John 13:10).

> > If then, the "dead in Christ" are (both foolish and wise) raised at the Bride rapture, then for a "foolish" virgin to die prior to the Bride rapture is a means of bypass into the Bride rapture group.

The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the Pre-Wrath Rapture, so all saints will be there by that time. Each will be in his proper group then.

1Co 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man IN HIS OWN ORDER (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

> > Perhaps this is covered by the wedding parable (Matt 22:11-14) ? If the foolish dead virgins are cast out of the wedding, what really happens to them? They don't come back to earth for another chance - sounds like to me they were not really saved after all !

In the parable, they are cast outside Heaven's door (Rev. 4:1). The "open door" (i.e., of Heaven at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture) is set before the Philadelphians, for whom Jesus has no words of condemnation (Rev. 3:8). They have confessed their sins (allowed Jesus to wash their feet).

The living foolish virgins will be left behind at the first Rapture, but they will have washed their robes in the blood of Christ (confessed their sins) by the time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14).

The foolish virgins among the dead in Christ will probably be raised up at the time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 18:4 seems to be their call. It says, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Dan. 12:1-3 says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet comes to his end, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

> > Why are you now looking to Fall 2005 as possible for the Bride rapture rather than next Pentecost?

I want to cover all the bases, look up everything I can find about all possible dates. Right now, Hanukkah, called the Feast of Lights and the Feast of the Dedication, seems to be the next most likely possibility. It looks like Jesus, the light of the world, was conceived on Hanukkah. That was his true coming to Earth. If the Rapture of his Bride was on the Feast of Lights, it would be fitting. Her coming to Heaven would be on the date that he came to Earth to secure a Bride.

If the Rapture doesn't happen on Hanukkah, I'll be looking forward to Ascension Day and Pentecost. Song of Solomon fits either one. Agape

Incoming e-mail

I know you believe the Rapture of the Church can take place any day now. I heard it said that the Rapture cannot take place until the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached or made available to the entire world. How close are we to reaching the world with the Great and Glorious Gospel of Jesus? Awaiting your Answer. In Christ,

My reply

I don't know the score on that, but the gospel has gone out in our days to the whole world by radio and satellite, even by a Christian satellite called Sky Angel. There was also a big push by various groups combining to reach the whole world by the year 2000.

I know that Mark 16:15 and 20 says, "And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.... And they went forth, and PREACHED EVERY WHERE, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Where is this tied to the Rapture?

Rev. 14:6,7 ties a preaching of the everlasting gospel to the Tribulation just before Babylon is destroyed. It says, "I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people". Verse 8 says, "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen".

Also, think back to Pentecost in 30 AD, when the disciples were all filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:4-11 says that they "began to speak with other tongues (languages), as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, OUT OF EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that EVERY MAN HEARD THEM SPEAK IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how HEAR we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born (the miracle was in the hearing)? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do HEAR them speak in our tongues (languages) the wonderful works of God."

Didn't the disciples spread the gospel to "every nation under heaven" in those days?

Isa. 28:9-11 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with STAMMERING LIPS AND ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people." The disciples spoke other languages to the Jews in Jerusalem on Pentecost in 30 AD.

Continuing, Isa 28:12-19 says, "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet THEY WOULD NOT HEAR. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

"Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem (especially during the Great Tribulation). Because ye have said, We have made a covenant (Dan. 9:27) with death (the False Prophet), and with hell (Satan) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge (the tsuname from the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 hitting the Mediterranean Sea) shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation (Jesus/Y'shua): he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report."

At the same time that this asteroid impacts the Mediterranean Sea, the "aster," asteroid, of Rev. 8:10 will destroy Babylon, Iraq.

Therefore, Rev 14:6-8 says, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment (the Judgment Seat of Christ is taking place in Heaven) is come: and worship him (Christ) that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Agape

   Pro and Con 1247   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee1@earthlink.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110


© 1996-2005, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-8-05